M4rio Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I'm at a restaurant and overhearing a woman describe how she has ancestors that trace back to the apostle Peter. She appears to be a minister and is talking to several other people about how there are "people all over the world who have it much worse than us. They are dying for Christ daily." She is describing how she never imagined becoming a minister. It came to her and she embraced the calling. Even so, the bulk of what she was talking about earlier was praying for good housing and food and water for people -- purely physical concerns that nobody could disagree with. I know that there are people doing that other part though, dying for their faith. That is true. It's not like I feel like barging in and questioning her faith, but does anyone else ever feel weird when you witness things like this? I guess, there is another part of me who feels bad that people are dying for religion, and that somehow there needs to be more conversation about these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 18, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted January 18, 2014 When I was a kid, a missionary came to the church and told the congregation that over in Russia, being a christian was illegal and that churches had to meet in secret. He then told a story about a church that was discovered and during a service, the soldiers of the Glorious Red Army marched in, weapons drawn. The soldiers lined all of the children up and went down the line demanding that each child's parent stand up and deny christ or their child would be killed. At the end of the story, there weren't many kids enjoying Sunday Dinner with their families. That story scared me to death because I knew if anything like that ever happened in our church, my parents would have been the first to stand up and say, "Those two there on the end... Go ahead and get it over with; we'll never deny jesus." I've been married to a Russian for ten years now and she has assured me repeatedly that nothing like this story ever happened over there. That missionary was simply lying. Perhaps it does happen and sometimes people do die for their faith. But I tend to take such things with a grain of salt. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 When I read the OP on this thread, my thought was, how do we know that this minister is telling the truth? Then I read The RedneckProfessor's post. Need I say I wasn't surprised? Eusebius, one of the earlier church fathers, wrote that it is okay to lie for the faith. I don't take anything an evangelist says at face value unless I know him or her personally to be honest. bill 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I'm at a restaurant and overhearing a woman describe how she has ancestors that trace back to the apostle Peter. Did you ask her if she used "The DaVinci Code" as part of her genealogical research? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted January 18, 2014 Moderator Share Posted January 18, 2014 It's not difficult to find verifiable sources of information on religious persecution and discrimination all over the world; however, I have heard many Christian anecdotes which turned out to be exaggerations, if not outright fabrications. I do favor religious freedom but not sponsorship. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 It's not difficult to find verifiable sources of information on religious persecution and discrimination all over the world; however, I have heard many Christian anecdotes which turned out to be exaggerations, if not outright fabrications. I do favor religious freedom but not sponsorship. True, but: a.) How many of these are instances of Muslims persecuting Christians? (I say this because when Americans say "there are places in the world where X happens to Christians," they are usually talking to either an atheist, or another person who has no vested interest in defending Islam) b.) Christians are often the perpetrators of this persecution. In India, for example, Western-funded missionaries use their vast financial resources to coerce Hindus into converting. Even when I was a Christian and looking up information on persecution, I came across as many of these stories as I did accounts of Christians being persecuted. You are, perhaps, more evolved than me on the matter. I do not favor religious freedom when it comes to Christianity. As much as I enjoy my American freedoms, I wouldn't complain over an outright ban on Christianity. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 I'm at a restaurant and overhearing a woman describe how she has ancestors that trace back to the apostle Peter. She appears to be a minister and is talking to several other people about how there are "people all over the world who have it much worse than us. They are dying for Christ daily." She is describing how she never imagined becoming a minister. It came to her and she embraced the calling. Even so, the bulk of what she was talking about earlier was praying for good housing and food and water for people -- purely physical concerns that nobody could disagree with. I take it this woman believes in the Bible and is fairly knowledgable on her own scriptures. If you ever have an opportunity to talk to her, I'd be curious to know how she can read the God-breathed words of 1 Timothy 2:12, and go on calling herself a minister in good conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 She has a strong imagination if she thinks she can trace anything back to someone named Peter a couple of thousand years ago. I still get mailings from "Voice of the Martyrs" that talk about what happens to believers in Vietnam and other countries. I used to subscribe to Brother Andrew's bible smuggler group, and thrilled to hear the stories of vans full of smugglers being machine-gunned, but no one being hurt (likely these were entirely made-up). Or the sad stories of young Christian girls taken from river baptisms and raped by the KGB. The long and short of it is that people all over the world treat other people like shit rather often, sometimes for philosophical/cultural reasons or just because they want to (like the gang-rapes in India that made the news recently). It is sad and unneccesary, but it happens frequently. It is our own choice to either join in harming others for fun or for a cause, or choose to be kind. I don't know that I'd say anything to this pastor unless invited to do so. I've overheard other believers in a pancake place quietly discussing the secret spiritual warfare techniques that *really* work, or how the city where I live has the most porn shops per capita of any city in the US, and so on. I shake my head and ignore them. I choose my battles when possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBluegrassSkeptic Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Pastors aren't pushy until they start eating people... http://www.atheistrepublic.com/news/tensions-between-muslims-and-christians-lead-cannibalism#sthash.fAtCtmZo.gbpl http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sIIcHdK6SkU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rach Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 I still get mailings from "Voice of the Martyrs" that talk about what happens to believers in Vietnam and other countries. I used to subscribe to Brother Andrew's bible smuggler group, and thrilled to hear the stories of vans full of smugglers being machine-gunned, but no one being hurt (likely these were entirely made-up). When I was in Christianity it never occurred to me that people might be making up stories about persecution. Now it's so obvious that many people might use this in a manner of attention seeking. I have my doubts about Richard Wurmbrand who apparently, wrote a book, about himself, "Tortured for Christ." I just wonder if his story is true and accurate or not. He is apparently the founder of the voice of the martyrs organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraBardus Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 I view this sort of thing as little more than religious urban legends. I don't think people who tell tales like this are literally lying, and often believe them to be true. Though most see it as simply telling an interesting moral story sort of like Grimm Fairy Tales for Christians. A pretty accurate description as The Grimm Bros. tales were pretty gruesome initially and were softened up considerably for modern audiences. I usually treat such tales as such and either ignore them or ask for evidence and sources of the information. Usually only the latter if the story is directed at me personally. Asking for verification is often responded to with statements such as "It doesn't matter if it's really true", implying the "point" is still valid or "[some trusted religious authority figure] told me. Why would they lie?", which is a hole with no bottom to it. I usually respond by declaring that such tales are the religions version of Urban Legends and that is why they are spread amongst members of their faith. The person who told them has just as much evidence that they do the story they just told is true [none] and simply assumed that it was for the exact same reason they did even though it isn't factual in any way. It's just a tall tale that bounces from one person to the next just like campfire stories about ghosts and goblins, but with religious motivations and morals behind their telling. They can never really argue with it, or suggest that it was some "article they read somewhere", which I gleefully respond amounts to the exact same thing. It's just a story to give religious folk the tingles and make them feel all inspired while scaring them into thinking their beliefs put them into some imaginary danger. It's the religious equivalent of buying a lottery ticket. Just something to make you people feel all warm and fuzzy, but instead of thinking about all the charity they'd do and stuff they'd buy they imagine themselves being far braver and more "heroic" than they actually would be and think about how huge their peni...er "faith" is. "Fuck yeah! I'd totally die for Jesus and inspire my children by dying in front of them so they'd learn from my example and be super Christians that totally bring God's love to the world and teach those bad sinners a thing or two about how strong we Christians are!" I class this as "mostly harmless" as far as religious stupidity goes. It's much like scary campfire ghost stories. They amount to about the same thing and really have about the same impact on people. They support beliefs already in place and do little to nothing to make things better or worse either way. The stories are told by people who have a predisposition to believe that the story is true regardless of whether it actually is or not and no good reason to bother with fact checking. Mostly these stories are accepted because of a sick sort of "Go Team Jesus!" bias. It has the same kind of Bias attached to it as the many Denver fans who believe that Peyton Manning is the most popular QB in America and by extension the Broncos are the most popular team in the NFL. Which is not really true and largely depends on where polling takes place and what team they are currently playing against. Peyton is a Hall of Fame QB and may well actually be the most popular QB in the league, there's no denying that, but he's also done a lot of popular commercials and is a genuinely funny guy with appearances on SNL and several late night talkshows. He's a popular media figure outside of his role on the team. Denver fans would deny it loudly and call it "jealousy", but he's not popular because of his relationship with the Broncos. It wouldn't matter what team he was playing for in fact. His role on the team has very little to do with his popularity. He's popular because he's a well known media figure who also happens to be a pretty good QB for a team that is playing against New England in the playoffs. A team that many football fans hate because their teams get beaten by them pretty regularly. Hitler and Stalin's popularity would rise playing against that team to a lot of football fans. On top of that people who don't know anything about football and don't even know what team he plays for know who Peyton Manning is and like him. A fan will believe any stupid thing they are told as long as it conforms to their already held bias, and fans of Jesus are no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 My reaction upon hearing this shit anymore is me biting my lip and imagining yelling, 'WOULD YOU JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY?!?!?!'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceWoman Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 I'm at a restaurant and overhearing a woman describe how she has ancestors that trace back to the apostle Peter. ... Well, I learned something new today. I had to look up whether Peter was even married, and there in Matthew 8:14 it does say, "When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever." How did this not register with me before? Was she one of "the women" who accompanied Jesus and the disciples? Based on population statistics, the woman in the restaurant could be descended from Peter, as could be millions of other people. Some of us here might be descended from Ghengis Khan or Charlemagne or Eric the Red or anyone else who lived long enough ago (1000-2000 years), simply based on what part of the world our blood comes from. In other words, regarding her claim... so what. Although I'll give her credit -- it's a bit more interesting than claiming she's descended from Adam and Eve (just like everyone else is, according to them), lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M4rio Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 I'm at a restaurant and overhearing a woman describe how she has ancestors that trace back to the apostle Peter. She appears to be a minister and is talking to several other people about how there are "people all over the world who have it much worse than us. They are dying for Christ daily." She is describing how she never imagined becoming a minister. It came to her and she embraced the calling. Even so, the bulk of what she was talking about earlier was praying for good housing and food and water for people -- purely physical concerns that nobody could disagree with. I take it this woman believes in the Bible and is fairly knowledgable on her own scriptures. If you ever have an opportunity to talk to her, I'd be curious to know how she can read the God-breathed words of 1 Timothy 2:12, and go on calling herself a minister in good conscience. Maybe she thinks it was forged: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Timothy_2:12 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 I'm at a restaurant and overhearing a woman describe how she has ancestors that trace back to the apostle Peter. She appears to be a minister and is talking to several other people about how there are "people all over the world who have it much worse than us. They are dying for Christ daily." She is describing how she never imagined becoming a minister. It came to her and she embraced the calling. Even so, the bulk of what she was talking about earlier was praying for good housing and food and water for people -- purely physical concerns that nobody could disagree with. I take it this woman believes in the Bible and is fairly knowledgable on her own scriptures. If you ever have an opportunity to talk to her, I'd be curious to know how she can read the God-breathed words of 1 Timothy 2:12, and go on calling herself a minister in good conscience. Maybe she thinks it was forged: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Timothy_2:12 ? I LOVE when christians use the "that line is not in the original texts" card!! Because then they themselves have opened the door to a whole host of "how do you know this verse wasn't added at a later date? Or this one? How about that one?" They have admitted themselves the bible is not accurate in their attempt to explain away a problem. Ive had them try this with Mark 16; the "christians can drink poison and not die" verse. No one has drank any bleach yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Persecution.. I'm sure it happens, and I'm sure some people die for their faith. I would say the Crusades were an institutionalized form of persecution against the Muslims (or whoever happened to be in the way) The Moors struck back - we are still fighting ancient animosities. But, I have a friend from Damascus, She is a Syrian christian and she explained to me that she lived in peace beside her Islamic neighbours, nobody was nasty… they were.. well, neighbours - some were friends. Not until the fanatic religious leaders began causing shit did she see any persecution on either side from the regular people. It was a muslim friend that helped her and her daughter get out and cross into Lebanon before immigrating to Canada about 5 years ago. This is my problem with the media and such hogwash as some people believe and perpetrate with their bigotry… we don't hear about the good side, the decent acts of others… so our entire worldview is poisoned by the sensational and horrific. We talk a lot about freedom here, and free will - but how can you have free will when you are fed lies and distortions all the time? Religion and other polarized philosophies remove our ability to make reasoned choices because they don't tell the whole story, or twist the information required to be well-informed. Freedom of choice is all about being well-informed. (Yay DEVO!!! lol) In the 80's when the computer began to be popular there was a saying, "garbage in, garbage out".(and for some reason the image of Max Headroom pops into my brains LOL) I think about that adage a lot. It's a truism. I don't get to see pastors or ministers in public here, I don't know why, maybe the culture is a it different.. but I'm kind of glad about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 You could have told her that you actually where in direct bloodline to Judas Ischariot...might have been fun to see her reaction... And prosecution happens...but not so much prosecution of christians, its more prosecution of people whose thinking appears dangerous to the prosecutors. In the stalin area of Russia people have been killed or sent to working camps. But not just Christians. It was about everyone who did not consent with communism or who appeared not to or who just had a mind that was not wanted by the Stalin regime. Stalin even executed his closest people, so it could be anyone. Of course Christians fell into that category...but it was not exactly because of their faith in God and it was not only Christians. So same happens in muslim countries but its not so much because of faith but because of not lining up with religion and government. Its christians and muslims and atheists...for being different, for being gay for having a different mind... And not o forget, in the middle ages it was the Church that prosecuted people who did not follow their lead. I think whenever it is about controlling people there will be prosecution. No matter what you believe, if christian or not, if your thinking seems to be a threat to those in charge, you will be prosecuted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Sorry, the vocab nazi in me is coming out for a PSA. prosecution=Presentation of a criminal case against an accused person in a court of law. e.g. OJ Simpson was prosecuted for allegedly committing a double homicide. persecution=Systematic and usually institutional mistreatment of a person or group because of some minority status such as race, religion, gender, or political affiliation. e.g. Christians have historically persecuted Jews and others who do not believe in Jesus. Apologies for my digression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Sorry Bhim...If your post is directed at me... I am not a native English speaker. Actually I learnt English when I was 24 and spent four months in Chicago for a students exchange. So it is possible that I am not using words the way they are supposed to be used...even though I use to look up words that I am not using much or I am insecure about and decide by the list of translated versions which one would be most accurate. And I am always open to learn :-). So I hope you understood what I wanted to say and thanks for the explanations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Hi Moanareina, I hope my sudden vocabulary explanation didn't come off as offensive. Most of the people I work with regularly correct one another's English, so I'm somewhat used to doing so myself. Incidentally, I would not have guessed that you are not a native English speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 We should see her method of tracing her ancestry Maybe she has her own animus machine that can tract her ancestor's memories by her dna #assassin's_creed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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