Richard Carrier Owes Acharya S An Apology

[Blood]

 

I would have to say I am probably a mythicist… so far - and have seen the astrotheology of the OT(and other ancient belief systems) for myself - it's all there. But critical analysis of Murdoch's work… or Carrier's is not something I would presume to do without researching the papers/books, whatever, myself. My background in mythology and ancient history/art.. etc… make me quite interested in this subject. It's been a while since I've had the time to keep up with this subject though.

 

I am very wary of 'worshipping' any one avenue of understanding, or any one author. That is dogmatism.

 

I'll be back when I have had a chance to peruse said material.

 

I agree with many of the claims made in Murdoch's books, but I am uncomfortable with her sources, evidence, and the way she came to her conclusions.  For example, if you follow the first link that sassafras posted of mine, you will see she has a hand drawn sketch as proof of a statue supposedly in the hands of the vatican.  Her first book was full of hand drawn sketches, other books I have read have actual pictures of the artifacts in question.

 

Its been over 10 years, but I also seem to remember her making some sort of connection to sun worship and jesus being the "son" of god.  I remember thinking, "wait, surely this is only the same sounding word in english?"  However, being that jesus is the center of 12 followers does seem to invoke the zodiac calendar, and I have read much better researched books about it.  

 

I don't necessarily disagree with her conclusions, just how she got there and how she presents it. 

 

 

Marty, I'm with you all the way here. I have read some of Acharya S's work, and heard interviews with her. I think she has a lot of good ideas, and has read a lot in the requisite fields, but she isn't critical enough of her sources. It wouldn't be a big deal, but for her devoted cult-like followers going around to every Internet forum to declare that the Master cannot be questioned. That is a huge turn-off. You wonder if she directly asks them to do this, or they decide to do it on their own. Or is it just the same person posting under different names?

[miekko]

There's at least two persons doing it - Freethinkaluva is the primary offender. The other is way more eloquent, and less hyperactively angry - Robert Tulip. It's almost a good-cop/bad-cop shtick. The verbal ticks of pretty much every sockpuppet account Freethinkaluva sets up are so similar to each other in a very distinct way that it's very difficult not to conclude they are all the same person.

[Ravenstar]

Interesting

[miekko]

Will Sassafras respond to these things or was this just a driveby?

[Sassafras]

Miekko,

Thanks for the establishing the fact that you're just an anti-Acharya shill trying to hi-jack this thread to make it about Acharya when it is not. If you don't like this thread nobody is twisting your arm forcing you to take a dump in it. The thread, as indicated by the title, is about "Richard Carrier Owes Acharya S An Apology." Just because it mentions Acharya doesn't mean you need to troll or hi-jack the thread to spread your smear campaign blog of hate that has already been addressed.

It doesn't take a high IQ to see that your blog is just another pathetic character assassinating smear campaign and has nothing to do with this thread in any way whatsoever.

Besides, you've already been exposed for all your lies:

Miekko's Smear Campaign Blog

Miekko is not any kind of reliable or trusted source of information on this issue. The guy is obviously a troll who has also been caught making numberous errors in his blog of hate attacking Acharya, which anybody can see for themselves throughout the link above.

Miekko is so blatantly biased and dishonest that he can't even admit Dick Carrier's own sloppy and egregious errors, which is what this thread exposes. So, don't be fooled by Miekko's BS, which is also probably why he hides his real identity while pretending to be a scholar:

 

The Nativity Scene of Amenhotep III at Luxor

"However, in "skimming" Brunner's text, as he puts it, Carrier has mistakenly dealt with the substantially different Hatshepsut text (Brunner's "IV D"), demonstrating an egregious error in garbling the cycles, when in fact we are specifically interested in the Luxor narrative (IV L)...."

- Acharya S

 

After going thru Miekko's blog it's obvious that he will do anything to smear Acharya. Miekko is a joke and not any kind of reliable or trusted source on information on anything. The guy is obviously a troll.

Again, "Those who actually care about accuracy and honesty and have integrity and character will have no problem calling Carrier out on all of his malicious smears he has tossed at Acharya S for 10 years now."

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4771#p4771

That certainly leaves Miekko out as he would never admit Carrier or anybody else was dishonest or lied about Acharya no matter what because Miekko has proven that he does not care about accuracy or honesty when it comes to Acharya and her work.

It's time for a little honesty for a change. Miekko has zero credibility here. So, Miekko is easily ignorable here but, he will continue his utter obsession with his pathetic character assassinating smear campaign blog even tho this thread is about Dick Carrier and his dishonest tactics that really do need to be called out.

Acharya and her supporters have every right to defend themselves against an endless stream of biased, bigoted malicious smears and character assassinations and flat out lies. Acharya has always been open to criticsm and correcting errors but, what that's not at all what these guys do.

Miekko has a hypocritical double standard, he wants to spread is malicious hatred smearing Acharya but, when he gets caught in lies and errors he wants to censor and supress his own critics for exposing his own lies and errors.

Miekko is helping me to prove my point of this thread.

[buffettphan]

Miekko,

 

Thanks for the establishing the fact that you're just an anti-Acharya shill trying to hi-jack this thread to make it about Acharya when it is not. If you don't like this thread nobody is twisting your arm forcing you to take a dump in it. The thread, as indicated by the title, is about "Richard Carrier Owes Acharya S An Apology." Just because it mentions Acharya doesn't mean you need to troll or hi-jack the thread to spread your smear campaign blog of hate that has already been addressed.

 

It doesn't take a high IQ to see that your blog is just another pathetic character assassinating smear campaign and has nothing to do with this thread in any way whatsoever.

 

Besides, you've already been exposed for all your lies:

 

Miekko's Smear Campaign Blog

 

Miekko is not any kind of reliable or trusted source of information on this issue. The guy is obviously a troll who has also been caught making numberous errors in his blog of hate attacking Acharya, which anybody can see for themselves throughout the link above.

 

Miekko is so blatantly biased and dishonest that he can't even admit Dick Carrier's own sloppy and egregious errors, which is what this thread exposes. So, don't be fooled by Miekko's BS, which is also probably why he hides his real identity while pretending to be a scholar:

 

 

The Nativity Scene of Amenhotep III at Luxor

 

"However, in "skimming" Brunner's text, as he puts it, Carrier has mistakenly dealt with the substantially different Hatshepsut text (Brunner's "IV D"), demonstrating an egregious error in garbling the cycles, when in fact we are specifically interested in the Luxor narrative (IV L)...."

 

- Acharya S

 

After going thru Miekko's blog it's obvious that he will do anything to smear Acharya. Miekko is a joke and not any kind of reliable or trusted source on information on anything. The guy is obviously a troll.

 

Again, "Those who actually care about accuracy and honesty and have integrity and character will have no problem calling Carrier out on all of his malicious smears he has tossed at Acharya S for 10 years now."

 

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4771#p4771

 

That certainly leaves Miekko out as he would never admit Carrier or anybody else was dishonest or lied about Acharya no matter what because Miekko has proven that he does not care about accuracy or honesty when it comes to Acharya and her work.

 

It's time for a little honesty for a change. Miekko has zero credibility here. So, Miekko is easily ignorable here but, he will continue his utter obsession with his pathetic character assassinating smear campaign blog even tho this thread is about Dick Carrier and his dishonest tactics that really do need to be called out.

 

Acharya and her supporters have every right to defend themselves against an endless stream of biased, bigoted malicious smears and character assassinations and flat out lies. Acharya has always been open to criticsm and correcting errors but, what that's not at all what these guys do.

 

Miekko has a hypocritical double standard, he wants to spread is malicious hatred smearing Acharya but, when he gets caught in lies and errors he wants to censor and supress his own critics for exposing his own lies and errors.

 

Miekko is helping me to prove my point of this thread.

 

Sassafras,

 

1.  This is not a pro or anti-Acharya and/or Carrier website.  This is a site for supporting deconverting and ex-christians.  

 

2.  Miekko and everyone else is free to respond on this thread however they see fit, as long as they keep it respectful.  Miekko has not been out of line.

 

3.  However, you need to step back, take a deep breath, and stop the personal attacks.  

 

4.   If we find out that you are bringing this website into any flame wars across the internet, you will be banned.  Period.

 

Consider yourself warned.

 

 

[Sassafras]

I agree with many of the claims made in Murdoch's books, but I am uncomfortable with her sources, evidence, and the way she came to her conclusions.  For example, if you follow the first link that sassafras posted of mine, you will see she has a hand drawn sketch as proof of a statue supposedly in the hands of the vatican.  Her first book was full of hand drawn sketches, other books I have read have actual pictures of the artifacts in question.

 

Its been over 10 years, but I also seem to remember her making some sort of connection to sun worship and jesus being the "son" of god.  I remember thinking, "wait, surely this is only the same sounding word in english?"  However, being that jesus is the center of 12 followers does seem to invoke the zodiac calendar, and I have read much better researched books about it.  

 

I don't necessarily disagree with her conclusions, just how she got there and how she presents it. 

 

 

Those criticisms are 15 years old and are directed at her first book from 1999, which she has already announced a revised 2nd edition:

 

The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, Revised 2nd Edition

 

Marty even admits: "Its been over 10 years"

 

Her sources since then have been the very best of the best:

 

The information also comes from the best and most thorough, scholarly and modern sources wherever possible, with the result that many authorities cited possess credentials from respected institutes of higher learning, and their publishers are some of the most scholarly in English (and other languages), such as the following.

 

Academic Publishers

 

E.J. Brill

Peeters

Kegan Paul

Oxford University/Clarendon Press

Princeton University Press

Cambridge University Press

Cornell University Press

Yale University Press

University of Chicago Press

University of Pennsylvania Press

University of Wisconsin Press

Johns Hopkins Press

Harcourt, Brace & Co.

Macmillan & Co., etc.

 

Those who really know what academia is will recognize the list above as the best of the most respected institutes of higher learning.

 

 

And the above is not all that was on her list.

 

Did anybody else notice how Marty was utterly incapable of acknowledging the fact that Bart Ehrman made a sloppy and egregious error in his attack on Acharya on the phallic image? I give kudos to Carrier for acknowledging that Acharya was correct on that:

 

The phallic 'Savior of the World' hidden in the Vatican

 

I just read the quote by Dr. Price calling Bart Ehrman’s comments on this issue about Acharya, “LIBEL”:

 

“Such libel only reveals a total disinclination to do a fraction of the research manifest on any singe page of Acharya’s works.”

 

- Dr. Robert Price, page xxi of the book, ‘Bart Erhman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth: An Evaluation of Ehrman’s Did Jesus Exist?’

 

Richard Carrier defended Acharya on this issue in the book too as well as across several of his own blogs:

 

“At the very least I would expect Ehrman to have called the Vatican museum about this, and to have checked the literature on it, before arrogantly declaring no such object existed and implying Murdock made this up … She did not make that up. The reason this error troubles me is that it is indicative of the carelessness and arrogance Ehrman exhibits throughout this book … [Ehrman] often doesn’t check his facts, and clearly did little to no research. This makes the book extremely unreliable. A reader must ask, if he got this wrong, what other assertions in the book are false? And since making sure to get details like this right is the only useful purpose this book could have had, how can we credit this book as anything but a failure?”

 

The Priapus Affair

 

“In his second reply he addressed one single point in my review. And here I believe there is reason to suspect he is lying about the Priapus statue. In my review of his book I called him out for saying (certainly very clearly implying) that Murdock “made up” the statue at the Vatican that she presents a drawing of and says is a symbol of Peter. He clearly did not call the Vatican about it or research the claim at all.”

 

“[bart Ehrman] said in a podcast (before my review and before Murdock herself exposed him on this) that the statue did not in any sense exist.

 

That’s right. On Homebrewed Christianity, April 3 (2012), “Bart Ehrman on Jesus’ Existence, Apocalypticism & Holy Week,” timestamp 20:30-21:10: at this point in that podcast, Ehrman says Acharya talks about Peter the cock and shows a drawing of a statue with a penis for a nose and claims this is in the Vatican museum, at which Ehrman declares, with laughter, “It’s just made up! There is no such s[tatue]… It’s just completely made up”.”

 

[P.S. After publishing this post, it occurred to me to mention as well, that in fact he gives no argument at all in his book for why Murdock is wrong to conclude this is a statue of Peter. His only argument is that the statue doesn't exist. Which only makes sense as a rebuttal if indeed he meant the statue wholly did not exist. Otherwise, why is she wrong to conclude it symbolizes Peter? Ehrman doesn't say. This seems to me strong evidence that he is now lying about what he really thought and meant when writing the book. Because surely he would give a reason why she is wrong. So what reason did he give?]"

 

http://freethoughtnation.com/the-phallic-savior-of-the-world-hidden-in-the-vatican/#comment-11233

 

Marty the sun/son issue was also addressed long ago:

 

The Son of God is the Sun of God

 

Anyway, this thread isn't about Acharya, it's about calling out Richard Carrier, supposedly a "scholar" spreading his own malicious smears at Acharya and Carrier needs to be called out for it same he he did with Bart Ehrman. It does not matter what your opinion of Acharya is in this thread it's about intellectual honesty and right and wrong. What Carrier has been saying about her for 10 years is just flat wrong no matter who you are and what you believe:

 

"Those who actually care about accuracy and honesty and have integrity and character will have no problem calling Carrier out on all of his malicious smears he has tossed at Acharya S for 10 years now."

 

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4771#p4771

 

[buffettphan]

Did anybody else notice how Marty was utterly incapable of acknowledging the fact that Bart Ehrman made a sloppy and egregious error in his attack on Acharya on the phallic image? I give kudos to Carrier for acknowledging that Acharya was correct on that:

 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were typing this response to Marty while my warning to you was posted. Do not post any more personal insults.

 

 

[Sassafras]

buffettphan, if you knew what Miekko has really been up to you'd realize you are attacking the victum here. He falsely accuses me of being other people and then goes on to spread his lies that have already been addressed.

Miekko Smear Campaign blog

 

He is just hi-jacking this thread off topic so, why are you attacking me ?

[Sassafras]

I am being attacked here and the moderator is warning to censor me.

 

Acharya and her supporters have every right in the world to respond and defend themselves against such malicious lies. so, why are the mods threatening me? It's just censorship.

 

Those critics are just trolling and hi jacking the thread off topic so, stop blaming me.

[buffettphan]

buffettphan, if you knew what Miekko has really been up to you'd realize you are attacking the victum here. He falsely accuses me of being other people and then goes on to spread his lies that have already been addressed.

Miekko Smear Campaign blog

 

He is just hi-jacking this thread off topic so, why are you attacking me ?

 

 

 

Are you telling me you came to this website to continue something from Freethought Nation? 

[Sassafras]

This thread is not even about Acharya, it's about exposing Richard Carrier's malicious smears.

 

It doesn't matter what ones opinion of Acharya is - this thread isn't even about her. I'm just asking for a little integrity and honesty here in exposing Dick Carrier's dishonesty that really needs to be exposed.

 

"Those who actually care about accuracy and honesty and have integrity and character will have no problem calling Carrier out on all of his malicious smears he has tossed at Acharya S for 10 years now."

http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4771#p4771

 

 

[Sassafras]

 

buffettphan, if you knew what Miekko has really been up to you'd realize you are attacking the victum here. He falsely accuses me of being other people and then goes on to spread his lies that have already been addressed.

Miekko Smear Campaign blog

 

He is just hi-jacking this thread off topic so, why are you attacking me ?

 

 

 

Are you telling me you came to this website to continue something from Freethought Nation? 

 

 

NO, but, if Miekko can post his trash here I have every right to respond calling it what it really is and pointing out the fact that it Miekko is extremely dishonest in his own malicious smears attacking Acharya and if he posts his crap here I have every right to post their response.

 

Miekko Smear Campaign blog

[Sassafras]

I would have to say I am probably a mythicist… so far - and have seen the astrotheology of the OT(and other ancient belief systems) for myself - it's all there. But critical analysis of Murdoch's work… or Carrier's is not something I would presume to do without researching the papers/books, whatever, myself. My background in mythology and ancient history/art.. etc… make me quite interested in this subject. It's been a while since I've had the time to keep up with this subject though.

 

I am very wary of 'worshipping' any one avenue of understanding, or any one author. That is dogmatism.

 

I'll be back when I have had a chance to peruse said material.

 

Hi Ravenstar,

 

I have read both Carrier and Acharya's books. I like Carrier when he argues for atheism and other things but, what I absolutely detest is his malicious smears directed at Acharya because, it turns out that Carrier has never actually read a single book of hers and his criticisms of her work have included sloppy and egregious errors like, for example:

 

The Nativity Scene of Amenhotep III at Luxor

 

"However, in "skimming" Brunner's text, as he puts it, Carrier has mistakenly dealt with the substantially different Hatshepsut text (Brunner's "IV D"), demonstrating an egregious error in garbling the cycles, when in fact we are specifically interested in the Luxor narrative (IV L)...."

 

- Acharya S

 

 

Carrier is suppose to be this "great scholar" but, when it comes to Acharya's work he is clearly professionally jealous of her and consistently makes these types of errors and NEVER EVER APOLOGIZES for them. So, Carrier has this hypocritical double-standard going on that I, as a freethinking mythicist (and former Xian) find very disturbing and I thought others should be made aware of it and call him out on it. It's just not right what he's done and he continues to get away with it. It just disgusts me because it's wrong, bad wrong.

 

Just read the link: http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4771#p4771

 

It probably presents the info far better than I could here.

 

You mentioned that you may be a mythicist and have at least some knowledge of astrotheology. So, I wonder if you've ever seen the mythicist position video?

 

The Mythicist Position video (read the links in the info box too)

[miekko]

So, Sassafras, please point out these errors I've made in my "smear blog"? Pretty please with fucking sugar on top?

[buffettphan]

But no insults or name-calling.    Just the "facts"     

[Sassafras]

Sassafras--- perhaps you are a bit biased towards your point of view---- I like both DM Murdock and Richard Carrier--- and find them both to be credible on a number of counts--- but their views do diverge at points. Everyone should be entitled to their views on the information provided by both these scholars.

 

Hi Kris,

 

I agree with you. I have read both Dick Carrier and Acharya's work. I've learned from them both but, I do find it completely disturbing when he maliciously smears her with criticisms of her work that include sloppy and egregious errors and flat out lies. Regardless of what ones opinion of Carrier or Acharya is, that is disturnbing and just plain wrong and Carrier is supposed to be a trusted scholar/teacher - he's not just some internet blogger so, it's only right that he be called out for it. Carrier owes her an official apology and if you read the link, which explains it far better than I can here, you'll understand why: http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4771#p4771

 

I've been at Carrier's lectures and seen him actually telling people never to read her work and then go on to malicious smear and character assassinate her.

 

He's also on video doing similar things:

 

Richard Carrier on Zeitgeist part 1 at 1 minute to 3:30 during the Q & A.

 

Advocating extreme censorship, Carrier says about Zeitgeist: "[Zeitgeist] and all copies of it should be burned."

 

 

I find Dick Carrier to be an embarrassment to us freethinkers when he pulls this crap. It's just not necessary at all and Carrier is blatantly dishonest about it and I find it utterly disturbing and I think if other people knew, they would find it disturbing too. It comes off like misogyny to me since he doesn't treat others nearly as maliciously as he treats her.

 

Take note that Acharya has never done anything to Carrier to warrant this type of attack. All she has ever done is respond to him pointing out his sloppy and egregious errors and dishonesty.

 

Here's Carrier on video claiming that we should not listen to anybody else but him:

 

Richard Carrier: The Historicity of Jesus

watch?v=XORm2QtR-os

 

At 3:10 Carrier proclaims: "The first thing to know is, forget about all the other mythicist theories ... so, I say, if you want a simple rule, basically, if you don't hear it from me (Dick Carrier) be skeptical of it."

 

There are plenty of other scholars performing work as good as and often much better than Carrier's. As Earl Doherty said, Carrier has an "ego the size of a bus." Dick Carrier's utter arrogance and conceit is out of control!!! He is an embarrassment to all of us Freethinkers / Mythicists!

 

 

Carrier admits on video he has no interest in studying Astrotheology:

 

"In a recent 2014 video, Nuskeptix "Christ Myth Theory" Video Chat, Carrier admits (at 53-54 minutes) he has no interest in pursuing or investigating astrotheology as he finds it "dull," which is basically an admission that Carrier has never studied the subject and has no interest in doing so, therefore, Carrier is not qualified to comment on it with any authority or competence whatsoever. Carrier says he "could never write a book on the subject" (ain't that the truth!). Carrier is simply not a reliable or credible source on the subject of astrotheology or Acharya's work and he needs to be called out on it by others."

 

[Sassafras]

So, Sassafras, please point out these errors I've made in my "smear blog"? Pretty please with fucking sugar on top?

 

You have already been addressed at Miekko's smear campaign blog

 

I will waste no more of my time on you. You are just a troll hi-jacking this thread off topic. Miekko, you have proven yourself untrustworthy on anything regarding Acharya and her work. So, stay the hell away from me.

[buffettphan]

I am being attacked here and the moderator is warning to censor me.

 

Acharya and her supporters have every right in the world to respond and defend themselves against such malicious lies. so, why are the mods threatening me? It's just censorship.

 

Those critics are just trolling and hi jacking the thread off topic so, stop blaming me.

 

Censorship?  LOL.   Do you have a reading comprehension problem?  Re-read post #32.  The reasons you may be banned are personal attacks on members and flame wars.  You (and anyone else) can post just about anything you want as long as you follow those guidelines and keep it respectful.  

 

We get your point -- but enough of the posting and re-posting ad nauseam of your link to Freethought Nation.  Say what you have to say and say it respectfully.

 

If you have anything further to say to me, do it in a PM.

[miekko]

Sassafras, is it okay when Murdock misrepresents nostraticist research on page 382 of The Christ Conspiracy, claiming that they are tracing the main bulk of Eurasian languages to 'India around 12,000 years ago'? Is it acceptable when a vast majority of the words she uses as linguistic evidence either are misunderstood by her or don't even exist in the relevant languages? Is it the mark of a good scholar when she gets the creation story of the Codex Chimalpopoca wrong, and also gets the mesoamerican culture in which it was written wrong? How about the incessant bragging on her website about how she goes to the original sources, reading stuff in the original languages - when a lot of her claims turn out to hinge on mistranslations somewhere along the often long chains of shoddy sources, i.e,:

 

 

Furthermore, as Carpenter states: “The same legend of gods (or idols) being born in caves has, curiously enough, been reported from Mexico, Guatemala, the Antilles, and other places in Central America.”  [1, p. 392]

 

Turns out Carpenter does say this, but Carpenter's source in turn does not (or Carpenter really sucks at German), since Carpenter's source has this to say:

 

Wie in Mexico und Guatimala sind auch in Aiti Höhlen die mythischen Geburtstätten oder Ausgangsorte der Völker (so die Höhlen von Cazibaxagua und Amaiáuna (P. Martyr 103, 107); und Götzenbilder in die Wände der Grotte von Donden(????) eingegraben (Charlevoix Hist, de l'Isle Espagnole I. 78) bezeichneten sie als einen heiligen Ort.[3, p. 758]

My translation: As in Mexico and Guatemala, also in Aiti caves are the mythical birth-places or origins of the peoples (such as the Caves at Cazibaxagua and Amaiauna), and idols engraved in the walls of the Donden(?) grotto marks it as a holy place.

 

These kinds of errors are legion throughout her book, and only someone who wilfully chooses to be ignorant about it in spite of it having been exposed has to hate truth with their entire being. (For what I think may be the full set of errors in the surrounding few pages, see http://somerationalism.blogspot.fi/2014/01/evidence-of-ancient-global-civilization.html )

[sdelsolray]

I am being attacked here and the moderator is warning to censor me.

 

Acharya and her supporters have every right in the world to respond and defend themselves against such malicious lies. so, why are the mods threatening me? It's just censorship.

 

Those critics are just trolling and hi jacking the thread off topic so, stop blaming me.

Here's a suggestion:  GET LOST.

[Ravenstar]

"Acharya and her supporters have every right in the world to respond and defend themselves against such malicious lies. so, why are the mods threatening me?"

 

This is not an open forum site, but a site for ex-christian support. Like I said at the beginning, wrong venue.

[Orbit]

For a flame thread, this is really boring. I second the idea for a fistfight--more interesting by far...

[buffettphan]

Thread locked.  Do not start another one on the same topic.  There are plenty of links to follow for anyone who may be interested in pursing the the Carrier/Archarya "controversy" without wasting bandwidth of this website.