Ranger26 Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 Guys, This is a philosophical question that hit me this morning. You know how we always say that we won't be able to enjoy heaven if there is hell and others are suffering there? However, I am sure you heard people say that hell is on earth, right now (with so many people dying, sick, suffering, etc). It seems that it doesn't stop most of us from enjoying our day to day lives! I just realized that, even when my grandma is very sick and suffering in her old age, other family members are or have gone through hard times before, but I still find joy in the day to day activities and my mind seems to block those unpleasant thoughts out. Or even the thoughts of wars, families, natural disasters that are happening throughout the world. Just an interesting take on our defense against hell (which I still don't believe in, think is a morally deprived concept, and no loving God would institute such concept). This is purely for discussion purposes of the human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 We have a built in psychological defense mechanism against being continuously aware of suffering in the world. That's good and bad. Good, since we are not driven crazy by others' suffering and bad because we take it too far. Too many of us forget about sufferers. Thus they don't get enough support. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 Guys, This is a philosophical question that hit me this morning. You know how we always say that we won't be able to enjoy heaven if there is hell and others are suffering there? However, I am sure you heard people say that hell is on earth, right now (with so many people dying, sick, suffering, etc). It seems that it doesn't stop most of us from enjoying our day to day lives! I just realized that, even when my grandma is very sick and suffering in her old age, other family members are or have gone through hard times before, but I still find joy in the day to day activities and my mind seems to block those unpleasant thoughts out. Or even the thoughts of wars, families, natural disasters that are happening throughout the world. Just an interesting take on our defense against hell (which I still don't believe in, think is a morally deprived concept, and no loving God would institute such concept). This is purely for discussion purposes of the human nature. Don't forget that in heaven when we feel this way we are by definition 100% good. We are washed white as snow. If we can't even see this as a virtue on earth, how could living in bliss with suffering going on eternally be considered the ULTIMATE virtue? Atleast on earth people try and end suffering (which Jesus said was futile just so he could get a foot massage... fucking selfish bastard). But the only way to end the suffering when you're in heaven, is to start a rebellion. It is just incoherent nonsense. It has to be incoherent for it to work. Someone is selling you a delusion in exchange for your money. Heaven is a fantasy... ...until you find out what can't happen there. xxxxxxxxxxxyumxxxxxxxxxxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 In heaven, according to the New Testament, God will wipe away all your tears and the former things will be remembered no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 In heaven, according to the New Testament, God will wipe away all your tears and the former things will be remembered no more. Yes, that's right. So just God, his son Jesus and the Holy Spirit know about the torturing after they hand out the soma. But if knowledge of evil taints us, then how can God be holy? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rach Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 Not everyone can enjoy life whilst other suffer. I have suffered many things in my sad life and maybe that's what makes me more aware but I never stop thinking about others suffering especially torture, and it makes it impossible to feel any joy in living whatsoever. The only way to feel any joy in living is to block out of your mind that there is torture going on, and not everybody does that. So I would certainly not enjoy heaven just as I have not enjoyed earth. It was mind boggling at my church how many parents said that they'd be happy in heaven even if their kids were burning in hell. Do monsters gravitate towards the greedy Christian religion, or does the Christian religion make greedy monsters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 xtify, 1) I don't know what soma is. 2) Define "holy". Does it mean sinless? Perfect? Creator? Or does it mean "set aside for God'? What if we looked at the Bible as a self-help book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 xtify, 1) I don't know what soma is. 2) Define "holy". Does it mean sinless? Perfect? Creator? Or does it mean "set aside for God'? What if we looked at the Bible as a self-help book? Duderonomy: Soma is a reference to the novel Brave New World. Here is an online definition: "Soma (Symbolism, Imagery, Allegory) "Euphoric, narcotic, pleasantly hallucinant" – that's what Mustapha says of soma. It's arguably the best tool the government has for controlling its population. It sedates, calms, and most importantly distracts a person from realizing that there's actually something very, very wrong – the citizens of the World State are enslaved." http://www.shmoop.com/brave-new-world/soma-symbol.html And by holy, I mean pure, or purely good, sinless, blameless. How is it that God can have all this knowledge of eternal torture, and yet sit back apathetically without being tainted by this knowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 He is all powerful, and yet he sits back for all eternity not even attempting to end the anguish. How is this not at the very least negligence? And then when you consider that he set the whole thing up this way... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger26 Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 Not everyone can enjoy life whilst other suffer. I have suffered many things in my sad life and maybe that's what makes me more aware but I never stop thinking about others suffering especially torture, and it makes it impossible to feel any joy in living whatsoever. The only way to feel any joy in living is to block out of your mind that there is torture going on, and not everybody does that. So I would certainly not enjoy heaven just as I have not enjoyed earth. It was mind boggling at my church how many parents said that they'd be happy in heaven even if their kids were burning in hell. Do monsters gravitate towards the greedy Christian religion, or does the Christian religion make greedy monsters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger26 Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 Sorry for double post. Was doing that from my phone. Rach I don't know you but my heart just hurt reading your post. I hope you can find some joy in life it sounds so very sad hearing you say that. I wish you well on your journey! Not everyone can enjoy life whilst other suffer. I have suffered many things in my sad life and maybe that's what makes me more aware but I never stop thinking about others suffering especially torture, and it makes it impossible to feel any joy in living whatsoever. The only way to feel any joy in living is to block out of your mind that there is torture going on, and not everybody does that. So I would certainly not enjoy heaven just as I have not enjoyed earth. It was mind boggling at my church how many parents said that they'd be happy in heaven even if their kids were burning in hell. Do monsters gravitate towards the greedy Christian religion, or does the Christian religion make greedy monsters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 It was mind boggling at my church how many parents said that they'd be happy in heaven even if their kids were burning in hell. They were either lying to gain points, or they were delusional, or they were sick bastards. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 Frederic W. Farrar said it well: "Unless my whole nature were utterly changed, I can imagine no immortality which would not be abhorrent to me if it were accompanied with the knowledge that millions and millions and millions of poor suffering wretches—some of whom on earth I had known and loved—were writhing in an agony without end or hope." I used to believe that humans should care for the welfare of other humans without discrimination -- a kind of universal charity. Thus, no person should be perfectly happy if others are not perfectly happy. This would rule out being perfectly happy in a heaven while others are suffering in a hell. This way of thinking would flow from a belief in a supernatural Ethics like the Ethics of Plato or Aquinas. Mr. Farrar seems to believe in that kind of ethics. But now I see that it is normal and natural to be mostly indifferent to the welfare of other beings outside of your tribe, your friends and your kin. For example, I don't think it is unethical to be mostly neutral to the suffering of people on the other side of the globe or the suffering of our nonhuman cousins (the animals). If there are beings on other planets, I believe that we ought not to trouble ourselves with a concern for their welfare. If we found out they exist and are in pain, I would disagree that this should affect our joy. Likewise the discovery that there are other continents full of miserable humans should not greatly trouble us. Thus, I think that it would be acceptable to experience joy in heaven even when there are people suffering in hell. Even now, you experience joy (albeit imperfect joy), even though people in Syria and Nigeria are suffering. No doubt their suffering causes you to suffer at least a little bit (because humans are empathetic beings). But this would not prevent you from enjoying the sunlight, good food, the laughter of a child, etc. Heaven and Hell exist today, and we are enjoying Heaven while others experience hell. What I find most jarring about Christianity is the idea that, beyond being neutral about the suffering of other people, Christians in heaven will experience elevated joy from the suffering of nonbelievers. Christianity teaches that Yahweh lays a curse upon nonbelievers in hell, and that their suffering serves as a glorification of him. Believers, observing the suffering of the damned and the consequent glorification of Yahweh, will experience an escalation of their joy. I don't think this is normal. This is more like sadism, which I don't think is a natural human feeling. It may be normal to be indifferent to the suffering of others, but to delight in the suffering of others is perverted. The only exception to this rule is when someone who has been victimized by a crime feels satisfaction when their victimizer comes to grief. When an enemy of yours suffers, it is usually a kind of pleasure to you. This is because of the impact upon us of the wrong of others. And, even in this case, humans desire to see only a token infliction of suffering, and would cringe if the punishment went too far. Consider the varied way that family members react to the imposition of the death penalty upon murderers. Most crime victims are satisfied to see their abusers suffer only a little bit, especially if the abuser is repentant. But, a Hindu in India has done no wrong to a Christian in the USA, so there ought to be no reason why the suffering of the Hindu should bring the Christian satisfaction. But Christian doctrine says that Yahweh will curse the Hindu and that the Christian should call that curse "Good." Perhaps this is why Christians convince themselves that nonbelief is a kind of crime that nonbelievers impose upon Christians (and upon Yahweh) -- only by this thought can Christians begin to feel OK about the doctrine of hell. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 "How is it that God can have all this knowledge of eternal torture, and yet sit back apathetically without being tainted by this knowledge?" xtify That is another "slam dunk" in the case against the Xtian god myth. There are so many. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Believers can be happy with their children in a furnace? God expects adoration and worship whilst this is taking place? Think about it.... God either deceives those in Heaven to not know of the simultaneous punishment taking place, he doesn't care how they feel towards unimaginable suffering or he hardens their hearts to accept it and carry on worshipping. Each scenario proves God is evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 "In heaven, according to the New Testament, God will wipe away all your tears and the former things will be remembered no more." duderonomy Yeah, the only way god's believer's could justify a tortuous hell is to create in their minds amnesia for all of those in heaven. Apparently, the truth does not set you free.Amnesia does.Ignorance is bliss. I've told this before so this is for the newcomers. One of my Xtian friends told me, when I asked her what she would feel like if one of her children did not die a Xtian, that she has to believe that god would not let her know that. And this, believe it or not, is from a very intelligent person. bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Maybe because we don't know these people who suffers on earth But when it's happened to our friend and family, we are affected by that to some extent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 30, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 30, 2014 Maybe because we don't know these people who suffers on earth But when it's happened to our friend and family, we are affected by that to some extent I don't need to know the names and faces of the little boys raped by priests to know that their lives have been turned into a living hell. If god is cruel enough to allow that, and christians are cruel enough to ignore it, then I don't see anybody giving a damn whether I am tortured for eternity or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 "In heaven, according to the New Testament, God will wipe away all your tears and the former things will be remembered no more." duderonomy Yeah, the only way god's believer's could justify a tortuous hell is to create in their minds amnesia for all of those in heaven. Apparently, the truth does not set you free.Amnesia does.Ignorance is bliss... Thanks for that, Bill. I have never really noticed this contradiction before. So in heaven, when we finally meet "The Truth", he then gives us all amnesia. Makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 I was always taught that you'd be programmed to feel nothing but happiness in heaven. I thought it would be impossible to feel happy for eons upon eons without being sad once. I was told that I would be programmed to feel in response to my inquiry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 In reality, there is no way any 'good' god could put people in a hell and, and there's no way a person in 'heaven', who is 'like god' could know about it and be any kind of happy. I pointed out what the Bible says about it because some people might see this as a theological argument and not as a very real situation -according to the Bible- that Christians have to answer. Will they know as they are now known? Will they see clearly instead of through a glass darkly? If so, then the only way for that to happen is for them to know now but not know then, because they had a memory wipe of some kind. In that case they would only know what they were told. They would still be looking through a glass darkly but not know it. Kind of like North Korea, Dear Leader and all. Either way I look at it, even if someone could prove that Biblegod was real, that wouldn't make him god. If someone could prove that Biblegod created me, that wouldn't make me want to serve or follow him. I wouldn't have a coffee with a sadistic prick like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanderinlostchild Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 As a christian I felt guilty for having comfort, money, or pleasure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted July 3, 2014 Share Posted July 3, 2014 "As a christian I felt guilty for having comfort, money, or pleasure" wanderinlostchild In a sense, that means you were a good Xtian. Many of the Xtians I knew, particularly at large churches, saw nothing inconsistent with wealth being their goal and the ubiquitous poverty in the world and felt no obligation to the poor. But you had a conscious. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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