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earthmama514
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OMG! Since deconverting i am beginning to realize just how impossible it is to have a decent, fact based conversation with anyone who is still a "believer". For example, a Christian friend last night posted as his status

 

"The power of positive thinking....what do you think, is it just a cliché or does it work? Can it be taken too far?"

 

I replied that I believed it did work because your mind is very powerful and can change many things.

 

I was hoping this would be a fun dialogue to have with him and whoever responded. But after the first couple responses i had to stop. EVERY.SINGLE.ANSWER was the same. It was against god and the bible to think too positively blah blah blah. Here are some gems:

 

"Positive thinking is Biblical (Ph 4:4-6,8) but the public and even some Christians have let charlatans hoodwink them with the prosperity gospel. We should also never forget that God has a purpose in suffering." (SERIOUSLY? its not ok to be too positive because god wants you to suffer? does he not even read what he writes? that makes NO sense)

 

"This sums it up for me… I think it should be about praising God and trusting Him in all things. If you feel that thinking harder on positive thoughts is going to change your life than you are going to be setting yourself up for a huge let down." (attached was a youtube video of Casting Crowns song "praise you in this storm")

 

"It depends on what you mean by "positive thinking." Certainly if you think positively about something, you'll encourage yourself to keep trying and there is definitely a connection between our emotions and our health. However, technically that is not what is referred to as "positive thinking," which is derived from the idea that you can actually change your reality by willing it to be so, using only the "power" of the mind. While clearly unbiblical, many Christians twist scripture to make it sound more palatable and have brought this idea into the church. The fact is that it has it's origins in Hinduism and is ultimately occultic. During the Cold War, both the KGB and the CIA were strongly instrumental in developing this field. The Russians, due to their atheism, knew nothing about the spirit realm and the demonic nature of Psychic powers, so they referred to this phenomenon as a simply a biological radio. In both cases, the demonic element was evident, involving many cases of demon possession.
In recent years "mind science" as it is also called is making a comeback and Is purported to be legitimate science. However, having looked at some of the evidence that has been submitted, the experiments were not exactly objective and the Hinduistic roots are still evident.
"
(This was my favorite. So if you think positively you obviously are possessed by a demon. and obviously atheists have NO idea about anything spiritual at all and therefore are easily hoodwinked into believing anything.  and lets just twist some facts about some study into what we want it to say instead of the truth. yikes. i cant believe i was so delusional once)

 

 

Then the kicker was the original poster adding this to the conversation: "I was actually thinking about that yesterday in regards to something I have encountered recently. Being positive is definitely a great character trait to have and can help motivate people in whatever they are trying to do. However, I do think that true joy can only come from having hope in Jesus Christ. Sure positive people will get more done and have more friends on the way, but deep down joy and positiveness can only be found in Christ." ( I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I have never been more joyous and positive since leaving xtianity and knowing i never have to go back and that its not real. I literally have a smile on my face 24/7 when i never did before. Its ridiculous how positive and happy i am most of the time now. I was a miserable wreck when i was a xtian.)

 

I just wanted to scream. Is it so hard to ask for a decent conversation that we can actually talk facts and be unbiased and just share information to learn something new? Why must everything fall back on "well thats not biblical.... so we cant talk about it" WendyDoh.gifWendybanghead.gif

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I laughed and laughed at those, esp. when they start mentioning the KGB and the CIA.  Hilarious.

 

In answer to your question: yes, it is too much to expect a rational, sensible conversation with most xians about these things.  That's what we're here for... your very own island of lucidity.

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I was finding myself just laughing and laughing last night. I cant believe these people are serious. needless to say i went through and unfriended the majority of them yesterday and today. My friend list is now about 70 friends lighter. :)

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Hmmm....I was dinged for not being positive enough after I left the fold. And for being too positive while I was in it.

 

Then again, my former church was all about achieving some mythical "godly" balance within yourself and your life. If you were too positive, you were proud. If you weren't positive enough, you were in doubt. If you were depressed, you had demons or were walking in darkness. Blah blah blah.

 

I don't find it impossible to have discussions with my few believing friends that I have left, but I do find that there a lot of topics that we can't discuss.

 

History is a big one because they want to sugarcoat everything to make it seem like God was always there, everything's according to his plan, the faith never did any harm, etc. They also like to work Hitler and the suffering of the Jews into every.single.convo about history. Which gets old and is really beside the point most of the time.

 

Politics is another topic that I am not allowed (by their decree, not mine) to discuss with them. One is a diehard Libertarian...or a wannabe diehard. She doesn't really know what the hell she's talking about though and is actually just a hyped up conservative in denial. The other two are so conservative it hurts. They all cling to this American Dream narrative and believe that everyone is out to silence and/or kill Christians, you can't trust anyone who doesn't believe in God, kids should be praying in public schools, good parents homeschool their kids to avoid the evil secular forces...so yeah, it gets a little old listening to them thump their drums over such things. When I go off on them, they get all butthurt and make claims that I am with the enemy now, etc.

 

There are several others that they have politely and backhandedly removed from our discussion repertoire in the past year since I have left Christianity behind. Now, we only talk about mundane things like families, jobs, funny memes, weather, etc. Anything beyond that devolves into catfighting or stonewalling on their part. Best to move on, I guess, although I do regret that it isn't possible for them to open their minds a little more. *sigh*

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Here is one of the secrets of the arrogance and elitism of xtianity. They will refute this with every fiber of their being, but it's in their own words.

 

True joy. True happiness. True love. True *insert anything good*. They really believe then, that anything and everything else outside the spectre of their own belief is false/fake. They deny in their very core that anyone else can be genuine in anything, and that has a convenient way of dehumanizing people.

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Hmmm....I was dinged for not being positive enough after I left the fold. And for being too positive while I was in it.

 

Then again, my former church was all about achieving some mythical "godly" balance within yourself and your life. If you were too positive, you were proud. If you weren't positive enough, you were in doubt. If you were depressed, you had demons or were walking in darkness. Blah blah blah.

 

 

 

 

 

How true is that

 

Christianity  effectively requires you to walk a very thin tightrope, blindfolded....and juggling five apples....and you must never ever fall or drop any, because there is a pit of fire beneath you!!!!!!!!!! 

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I have found that when Xtians post a question like that on Facebook it hardly ever is to have a real and fun conversation...they have their answer ready and only wait for the one who is posting first in order to agree or disagree and get their statements across...sad but true. When it is that your arguments beat theirs without any chance for them to devalue them, they just delete you from their friends list. I used to answer posts like this with a question...and got deleted off many lists because of it. Or they started to attack me personally by telling me to be bossy and ALWAYS having to have the last word...actually a good way to end a discussion because if I answer to this I confirm their statement and if I don't answer to it I confirm it as well...

 

Just some days ago I started to watch episodes of The Atheist Experience on youtube. It is pretty funny all those Xtians calling into the show trying to proof to those guys why being atheist was not reasonable and why there must be a God. Literally EVERYONE makes a fool out of himself. I really wonder why they even keep calling that show...Shows how little they are aware of how ridiculous their claims sound.

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Earthmama, it sounds like you are on your way to becoming a skeptic and critical thinker.

Congrats.

It's what lead many of us out of religion.

 

I have no idea what your interests are but thought you might be interested in the following.

 

Book - Why People Believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer.

Podcast - Skeptoid. Lots of great urban legends and folk tales discussed in weekly 10-13 minute podcasts.

Podcast - Skeptics Guide to the Universe. Weekly roundtable style podcasts of about 1-1.5 hours each.

 

Enjoy.

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I did. I learned early on that there's no arguing with believers and not having them try to steamroll everything. They've got their heads so buried in the sand that there's no point in arguing with them. They have a need to believe, it's like a security blanket to them. You're dealing with emotion and indoctrination, and that's a double whammy. 

 

I was in total turmoil during my time in xtianity, particularly during that last year of it when the shit really hit the fan. I can't believe I was ever deluded by the crap that pastor fed the congregation. Don't feel bad about being deluded, earthmama. You did the best you could with what you knew back then. Now that you know better, you're doing better. 

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Earthmama, it sounds like you are on your way to becoming a skeptic and critical thinker.

Congrats.

It's what lead many of us out of religion.

 

I have no idea what your interests are but thought you might be interested in the following.

 

Book - Why People Believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer.

Podcast - Skeptoid. Lots of great urban legends and folk tales discussed in weekly 10-13 minute podcasts.

Podcast - Skeptics Guide to the Universe. Weekly roundtable style podcasts of about 1-1.5 hours each.

 

Enjoy.

Thanks for the suggestions. I love to read. these might have to wait as i currently have about 6-7 other books in front of them not including my school books. lol

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I now find that I have the 'exact' same problem when I try to talk to my mom or other people that I used to share the faith with.  I bring up something interesting to talk about like history or technology, and no matter what I say, a religious spin is immediately put on the subject.  If by chance, a religious debate is avoided, the conversation usually ends up falling flat and dying.  Apparently, the people I used to hang out with do not know how to look at the world objectively without religious rose-colored glasses.  It is sad really.  What I am about to say has taken me quite a bit of time to actually come to terms with...  I now realize that these people literally have next to no understanding of how the world actually functions.  Wendytwitch.gif

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"While clearly unbiblical, many Christians twist scripture to make it sound more palatable and have brought this idea into the church. The fact is that it has it's origins in Hinduism and is ultimately occultic. During the Cold War, both the KGB and the CIA were strongly instrumental in developing this field. The Russians, due to their atheism, knew nothing about the spirit realm and the demonic nature of Psychic powers, so they referred to this phenomenon as a simply a biological radio. In both cases, the demonic element was evident, involving many cases of demon possession."

 

LOL. Definitely a fundy mind at work there, right down to everything either being "biblical" or "unbiblical."

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I was finding myself just laughing and laughing last night. I cant believe these people are serious. needless to say i went through and unfriended the majority of them yesterday and today. My friend list is now about 70 friends lighter. smile.png

I did the same thing a couple years ago. It's a liberating feeling, isn't it.

 

 

it is!! and i am finding that i dont even miss any of them so far. i also enjoy looking at facebook again for the most part since i dont have to be bombarded by fundie crap day in and out

I now find that I have the 'exact' same problem when I try to talk to my mom or other people that I used to share the faith with.  I bring up something interesting to talk about like history or technology, and no matter what I say, a religious spin is immediately put on the subject.  If by chance, a religious debate is avoided, the conversation usually ends up falling flat and dying.  Apparently, the people I used to hang out with do not know how to look at the world objectively without religious rose-colored glasses.  It is sad really.  What I am about to say has taken me quite a bit of time to actually come to terms with...  I now realize that these people literally have next to no understanding of how the world actually functions.  Wendytwitch.gif

 they dont. my family is blindly obivious to anything that is 'actually' happening in the world right now that they havent viewed through their fundie goggles. its so mind boggling to me.

 

 

"While clearly unbiblical, many Christians twist scripture to make it sound more palatable and have brought this idea into the church. The fact is that it has it's origins in Hinduism and is ultimately occultic. During the Cold War, both the KGB and the CIA were strongly instrumental in developing this field. The Russians, due to their atheism, knew nothing about the spirit realm and the demonic nature of Psychic powers, so they referred to this phenomenon as a simply a biological radio. In both cases, the demonic element was evident, involving many cases of demon possession."

 

LOL. Definitely a fundy mind at work there, right down to everything either being "biblical" or "unbiblical."

 

 

right? everything is either one or the other and if the first then completely endorsed no matter how insane, but if the latter rejected out of hand no matter how rational/logically it is.

 

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 Sure positive people will get more done and have more friends on the way, but deep down joy and positiveness can only be found in Christ."

This was my absolute favorite line!

 

I thought it seemed obvious that being positive and getting more done and having more friends on the way is a very joyous and positive way to live!  No, no, no, that is ONLY found in jesus!

 

jesus.gif

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 Sure positive people will get more done and have more friends on the way, but deep down joy and positiveness can only be found in Christ."

This was my absolute favorite line!

 

I thought it seemed obvious that being positive and getting more done and having more friends on the way is a very joyous and positive way to live!  No, no, no, that is ONLY found in jesus!

 

jesus.gif

 

I had a teacher in high school (I went to a christian school) who was always smiling and talking about the joy of the lord and how it was her strength.  But she had the most miserable eyes you could ever imagine.  Even through the smile, I could tell there were places deep down inside of her where dark and painful monsters lurked.

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OMG! Since deconverting i am beginning to realize just how impossible it is to have a decent, fact based conversation with anyone who is still a "believer". For example, a Christian friend last night posted as his status

 

"The power of positive thinking....what do you think, is it just a cliché or does it work? Can it be taken too far?"

 

Positive thinking can be bad for a Christian who wants to claim that everyone is a sinner.

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OMG! Since deconverting i am beginning to realize just how impossible it is to have a decent, fact based conversation with anyone who is still a "believer". For example, a Christian friend last night posted as his status

 

"The power of positive thinking....what do you think, is it just a cliché or does it work? Can it be taken too far?"

 

"Too far" means not mentioning Jesus with it. Anything surrounded and interspersed with the word "Jesus" is acceptable to Christians.

 

Positive Thinking by itself is bad. If we call it Positive Jesus Thinking, then it's ok for a Christian.

Rock and Roll is bad. Christian Rock and Roll is holy.

Hoarding is bad. 'Extreme Shopping' for the eventual holy apocalypse, is good.

 

Smoking crack is bad. Smoking crack for Jesus! Well, that one might not fly.

 

But certainly, a lot of secular uplifting concepts that Christians don't approve of can be turned around to be Holy Stuff if you add the Jesus word to them. Or put them in a Jesusy context. Try it. It might be fun. lol.

 

Jesus Yoga

Jesus Transcendental Meditation

Jesua Reiki

Jesus Bondage Domination and Sado-Masochism. :-)

Casino of Jesus

 

Jesus Astral Projection - "The other night I was able to lift out of my physical body" - Christian: "Oh my, that's evil" - "And Jesus greeted me in my astral body" - Christian: "Oh, praise the Lord! He must have a special purpose for you!"

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 The common Christian approach that humans can do no good and if we're try to do so without God, we're arrogant and doomed. The answers to your question are proof enough that Christianity damages the human plight. It strips individuals of the true power they have. I mean, for fucks sake, they're demonizing having a positive attitude outside of Jesus. 

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Heh...Casino of Jesus. My old church had poker tournaments to raise money for charity. A few people played competitively to make extra money as well. It was ok for them to play poker, but I got reprimanded for buying lottery tickets (called a poor tax in my old church) and playing scratchers from time to time.

 

Hypo-mf-crits.

 

The bible is full of thinly veiled pornography of various stripes. Jesus-themed bdsm would be ok as long as it was a straight, married couple doing it in the Lord's name.

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Heh...Casino of Jesus. My old church had poker tournaments to raise money for charity. A few people played competitively to make extra money as well.

I wonder why that hasn't caught on more... What type of church was that anyway?

I used to attend a Messianic nondenominational church.

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However, technically that is not what is referred to as "positive thinking," which is derived from the idea that you can actually change your reality by willing it to be so, using only the "power" of the mind.

 

 

That sounds more like the Christian "prosperity" gospel than positive thinking, which is a pretty good indication that this guy can't think outside the box of things put forth by Christians. Positive thinking can be very beneficial, but of course those of us in the secular society are not inferring anything magical with it.

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Christianity  effectively requires you to walk a very thin tightrope, blindfolded....and juggling five apples....and you must never ever fall or drop any, because there is a pit of fire beneath you!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Unfortunately, when I was still a xtian, I would have said (along with everyone else I knew in that church) : "Wide is the gate, and narrow is the path that leads to destruction." I'd have expounded on that example of walking a tightrope as meaning this narrow path, and those of us in heaven's olympics were doing our best to qualify. Facepalm.

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Christianity  effectively requires you to walk a very thin tightrope, blindfolded....and juggling five apples....and you must never ever fall or drop any, because there is a pit of fire beneath you!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Unfortunately, when I was still a xtian, I would have said (along with everyone else I knew in that church) : "Wide is the gate, and narrow is the path that leads to destruction." I'd have expounded on that example of walking a tightrope as meaning this narrow path, and those of us in heaven's olympics were doing our best to qualify. Facepalm.

 

 

You jumbled that quote up a little bit. The way to destruction was referred to as wide and broad, while straight and narrow were used to refer to the way that leads to life. (Matt 7:13-14)

 

wink.png

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Of course xianity is anti-positive thinking.  Because if you are happy and content with yourself and the world around you, what the hell do you need dog for?  What does he have to offer?  Indeed it is the promise of a better world after death that attracts people, and maybe more importantly, it's so damn easy to just "let Jesus take the wheel" and give up all responsibility and logical thought.  Then you're just sitting around waiting to be "made" happy, basically: like a dog waiting to be petted by the master who tied him to a stake in the back yard.  And you can blame everything that goes wrong in your life on the devil; since this unfathomable, powerful being has nothing better to do but follow you around - surely you have nothing to do with your own negative thinking and foolish decisions. 

 

I like how they call Hinduism "the occult": their god Krishna (the second person in the Hindu trinity) lived on Earth thousands of years before Jesus: if you want to see some shocking similarities between them, check out this link.  Xians actually ripped the story of Krishna off.

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr1.htm

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