megasamurai Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I'm sure this is one of the most famous phrases Christians say to non-believers to make them feel like shit. The idea is that those who disbelieve in God are ungrateful bastards who refuse to love someone who loves them so much that he let Roman soldiers brutally torture him to on their behalf. I have doubts, to put it mildly, on the veracity of the Jesus' story, but this line still gets to me sometimes when Christians pull this card. I think most Christians probably use this phrase to shame unbelievers more frequently than the next runner-up for common things Christians say. I just have several things about this tactic that really upsets me: 1). I don't get why Jesus had to die to forgive sins. Humans don't have to kill to forgive sins. 2) It's hard to feel special for this sacrifice when he supposedly died for every human being on the planet. 3). It's hard to realize the alleged benefit of this when the afterlife is 60 years away. 4) It feels less like a free gift when not being BBQd has at least 30 terms and conditions to meet it. I've pondered the way I was physically unable to find love for Jesus back when I was a believer because I was so damn afraid of him. I realize that I could have meditated about his sacrifice to meet his demand of loving him more than the (human) love of my life (or anything else that I might be tempted to love more than him) or else fry. I realize that the monotony of obsessing about the one thing Jesus actually did for me 2000 years ago would get to me. Obsessing over the afterlife would have probably made me lose my satisfaction of the joys of this life. There's also the stress of maintaining a deep love for Jesus for decades without it fading away. I just find it irritating that I'm evil for not feeling love for Jesus (who I can't see or hear) as much as I do humans (who I can) all because he died and Jesus magic made him able to feel (conditional) forgiveness. I just question the idea of love being an obligation for doing something for someone. I feel love because someone makes me happy, not because I owe them love. Why can't Christians realize that love doesn't work like they say it does? I just had to vent today. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawn Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Yeah, the whole idea is completely absurd. That some incarnation of the creator came down into a human form and "died for us". God can't die anyway, it is totally ridiculous. Jesus died, (if he ever really existed beyond myth) because he was a raving revolutionary lunatic. The Romans realized this, and nailed him up to show his followers what a pathetic loser he really was, compared to their unprecedented formidable empire. Roman empire: 1, Jesus: 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 The Xtian message: "You are required to love me of your own free will". If it's required, how freely given is it? It's a mindfuck you don't have to worry about any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 If it's free will can't I love someone else more than him and NOT go to hell. That seems like conditional will. Why does he feel anything other than number one isn't enough. If someone loves Jesus more than anyone else besides one's spouse and/or kids why is he offended with being second place. Does letting Romans kill him give him the entitlement to demand love when love is more than just an obligation for one act? The people I love have done more than just one thing for me, and I don't love them just because of what they do for me. I love them not out of obligation but because my love for them and their love for me makes me feel happy. Love is not something that should be demanded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milesaway Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Vent away, megasamurai. That guilt trip is one of their age-old tactics, and a rather low blow at that. It's just another way to tug at your emotional heartstrings to make you feel like you're an awful person when you're not, and that alone should be a cause for concern. The concept of a god dying for humanity existed long before Jesus did, and it's the premise of religions that predated xtianity by thousands of years. Horus, Mithra, and other gods of antiquity died to save the world, and nowadays they don't get so much as a second thought. The reason why xtians can't realize that love doesn't work the way they claim it does is b/c they're incapable of doing so. Xtianity has appropriated something so universal and priceless as love, and twisted it around to make it conditional on their terms, not yours. True love is an unconditional two-way street, and that isn't possible with xtianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StruggleWithin Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 My problem with this is that being god, he knew his suffering would only last a few days. Maybe if he was sold into sex slavery as a child, tortured for years, starved, etc, and lived to be 75 with PTSD, THEN I would feel guilt for him dying for my "sins"...or maybe not. Supposedly god created us, and he is "all knowing" so he knew we would do the things we do, and yet had to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself of the way he created us?? Yeah, whatever. I find the tactic laughable now. I took it very seriously for years, so I get it, but I want to go back in time and slap myself for my stupidity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 jihads bombed themselves to death so you may know the real god,,,,,, americans bombed the fucked out of iraq so you may have more oil,,,,, israels killed the palestians because god loves them,,,,,,, so what did jesus do?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 That's a good point. If Jesus death was supposed to be punishment for the evils of humanity, he suffered a lot less than what humanity was guilty of. Of course, considering the idea of Jesus living eternity in heaven without suffering and experiencing his first taste of the pain humans go through once he came to earth, maybe the pain was supposed to be more intense than what humans had. At the same time, inflicting pain on Jesus as a scapegoat is a horrific reason for the crucifixion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savemefromgod Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I wish someone would say that to me, because it says right there in the bible than his own followers sent him to die and/or forsook him. That's right, these people that followed him everywhere, and these other people that laid palm branches on the ground when he entered their town, and claimed to believe that he was the Son of God: Demanded that Jesus be killed, even though Pontious Pilate himself questioned why he deserved it; Chose a known serial killer named Barabbas over their own Lord and Savior; Demanded that he not only be killed but in the worst way possible; crucifixion was as bad as it got, and the worst people got it. And one of them denied him three times, at a precise time, after Jesus himself told him he would and he had said no way; thus he lied to the Son of God to save his own skin. This religion is by far the most pompous, narcissistic crap ever written. Not only did they send the poor guy to a violent end when he did nothing to them, and only because public opinion swayed away from him so they jumped on another bandwagon: not only did they say crucify, crucify, but they have the GALL to say that he did it to save us from our sins, for God so loves the world. The idea of the sacrifice at all makes no sense and is another subject. But this point really tells you what the religion is all about. It's about people wanting to think they are special, so special that the creator of all would come down to our level and allow us to torture and murder him? If Jesus came back today, the xians would eventually send him to death row. They don't actually believe in anything 100% but themselves, and obviously their worship is as meaningful as their hate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 1). I don't get why Jesus had to die to forgive sins. Humans don't have to kill to forgive sins. 2) It's hard to feel special for this sacrifice when he supposedly died for every human being on the planet. 3). It's hard to realize the alleged benefit of this when the afterlife is 60 years away. 4) It feels less like a free gift when not being BBQd has at least 30 terms and conditions to meet it. Well, first of all, in Judaism at the time, the sacrifice of animals was needed for the forgiveness of sins. Once the temple was destroyed, there was no way to sacrifice anymore, so I believe some off shoot jewish cult originally came up with the idea of an all encompassing sacrifice that would get around that. It didn't take with the Jews but the Pagans jumped on board. It doesn't jive exactly with the dates of the earliest NT writings, but to me it seems a very satisfying explanation. I always point out to the christians that use this "died for you" card that jesus didn't actually sacrifice anything. He is still alive and in bodily form, and in exchange for a few hours of torment, he gets to rule the universe next to his father for all of eternity. It is hardly a sacrifice, I would take that deal in a heartbeat if I was offered it. It tends to shut down that avenue of apologetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Jesus died for a day and a half for your sins. Then came back to life...so the story goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted July 19, 2014 Author Share Posted July 19, 2014 The thing that is still not explained is how does bloodshed cause forgiveness of sins? Humans can forgive without killing animals or people. Why can't (or won't God)? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawn Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 The thing that is still not explained is how does bloodshed cause forgiveness of sins? Humans can forgive without killing animals or people. Why can't (or won't God)? 'cuz BibleGod is a morbid, twisted, sadistic, sick fuck. Really sick, he makes Jeffry Dahmer look like a bunny rabbit. "I must have BLOOD, nothing else will satisfy my sadistic madness!!!" -YHWH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 The thing that is still not explained is how does bloodshed cause forgiveness of sins? Humans can forgive without killing animals or people. Why can't (or won't God)? Good one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 That's a good point. If Jesus death was supposed to be punishment for the evils of humanity, he suffered a lot less than what humanity was guilty of. Of course, considering the idea of Jesus living eternity in heaven without suffering and experiencing his first taste of the pain humans go through once he came to earth, maybe the pain was supposed to be more intense than what humans had. At the same time, inflicting pain on Jesus as a scapegoat is a horrific reason for the crucifixion. I'm not defending christians but the value is built around the death of perfection not suffering, so I thought. Regardless........... as the story goes, Jesus was their god incarnate. So you have an entity that is a "spirit" that borrowed some human flesh for a while then went back to where it came from. Not really a sacrifice in my book. ...........and who's to say this Jesus, in it's omnipotence, didn't just kick in a mega-dose of endorphins when it was allegedly getting whipped and crucified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 It isn't forgiveness if it comes with a price tag. That is payment. Forgiveness means letting it go. It isn't love if saying no means torture. It isn't love if saying yes means death of my self-identity We know a lot more about reality of our world and universe than the ancients. We know about the causes of lightning, earthquakes, and tsunamis. We know about planets and stars, and how they are different than meteors, and how stars can't "fall to the Earth" or move around to guide astrologers to the house of Jesus. We should know by now that there is not an angry god looking for blood of goats and pigeons as payment for our existence. Nor have we ever needed an ultimate sacrifice to pay for our humanness. We are not in need of forgiveness, we are not sinners, we simply exist. The only reason any of them still believe that there is such a god is that someone else who believed passed on the mind virus to them, somehow managed to convince them that believing would bring desirable change, some kind of payout that makes life better. That same thing is what led people who knew nothing about why rains come and go to offer a sacrifice to an invisible someone, with the hope of somehow bending the odds in his favor. And from that act of belief came every religion ever. We make our own way by our choices and by studying and understanding the world around us. We have centuries of human history and ethical thinking to help us decide how to behave. But our species is strangely devoted to gods, and we continue to maim and murder in their names. We bend our minds and wills and fortunes to please them. We continue to tell others of the great love and hate these beings have, and the control they have over our destinies. Fear and desperation continue to draw in the masses looking for acceptance and a cosmic edge on life's odds. Each of us pulled the plug on that. We know that this god we followed is vile, bloodthirsty, cruel, vindictive, narcissistic, and of course fictional. We have made a critical step towards bettering humanity as a whole. The more we speak to others of our change, the more we help inoculate them against the deception that caught us for a time. We help remove the default respect that religion has in our cultures, and start moving mankind away from myths of angry god to ethical personal choices. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 So far the scapegoat theory seems to be most plausible theory for what the authors of the Bible probably thought of the death of Jesus. There seems to be the someone must die if someone sins as payment system. Still, there's the question as to how essential Jesus' suffering was to God being able to forgive. The Bible emphasizes Jesus refusal to take painkillers as he was on the cross. Maybe the authors intended to say that Jesus had to suffer as payment for what humans did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I despise the "he died for you" nonsense. I usually fight fire with fire: "So you're okay with letting someone die in your place? Sucks to be you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 "He died for you" And created Hell for you And spoke in parables so you wouldn't understand And sent strong delusions so you would believe lies And burns infants in a lake of fire And pretended He would answers your prayers And approves of war and death on Earth And came NOT to bring peace but a sword And came to turn families against each other And expects you to hate yourself and only love Him And abandon your family in return for a big room in a mansion in the sky *after* you die ..........But " He died for you"......more like "He lied to you" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 20, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 20, 2014 If he doesn't feel guilty about throwing us into hell, why should we feel guilty about him dying for us? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Guilt trip 'em right back with a dewey-eyed and dead earnest defence of the Aztecs, in an exact mirror-image of their own argument for Christianity. *hilarity ensues* ...when you get down to nuts and bolts, it's human sacrifice, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Go and sin some more. If you don't sin, then poor old Jesus died in vain. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageHealer Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 By their own arguments, jesus didn't need to die at all. Just ask an xtian what happens after death to a heathen who's never heard the gospel, and has never had the chance to accept christ, the typical answer is "God knows everyone's heart. So God will judge that person on whether they would've accepted christ given the chance." He could've just looked into our hearts and saved himself the pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 The thing that is still not explained is how does bloodshed cause forgiveness of sins? Humans can forgive without killing animals or people. Why can't (or won't God)? Because "sin" requires punishment. It really doesn't matter who is punished for whose sins; if it did, why would innocent Jesus die for our transgressions? At the end of the day, biblegod doesn't care which person suffers, just so long as someone is in excruciating pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 In one of the Beatles' movies, the Beatles were running around London acting young, loud, and cocky with their long hair and bell bottoms, and an older gentleman reprimanded them with, "We fought the war for your sort, you know!" And one of the Beatles replied, "Bet you're sorry you won now!" Try that tactic: "He died for you, you know!" Reply, "Bet he's sorry he did that now!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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