Guest Beyond_Belief Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I someties visit an evangelical Christian forum, an organisation here in the UK that attacks all other faiths and athiesm, to see what they are talking about. I've just visited it and a poster has started another thread to challenge me and other non-Christian posters who sometimes visit with a series of assertions: "1- The amazing accuracy of the hisoricity of the bible. Every city and every town has been proven to have existed through archaelogical research, as has every coin mentioned, and many of the people mentioned. 2- The factual accounts of historical events, some of which, (like the story of the wordwide flood), have proven to be true, and have disproven Darwinian theories. 3- Scientific facts that could not have been understood naturally at the time. Some of these are: a) The world is round The world sits in space, supported by nothing c) The ocean has springs at the bottom d) wounds should be washed under running water, not still water e) air has weight These are only a few of many" As for these `scientific facts' I shall ask the poster what passages they appear in. But in the meantime, does anyone know of web recourses regarding the non-accuracy of biblical history(wasn't there one passage where they mentioned coins that weren't in existance at the time?!") As for `every city and every town proven to have existed through archaelogical research' - even if true it doesn't mean that the events took place or that the Christian supernatural spirit-god was in communion with humans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Hiya B_B: Okay. My first instinct would be to ask for documentation of all these claims. Don't expect to get it, because they're all pretty much bullshit; but I'd ask anyway. If you get any response, it'll most likely be from some poorly-researched fundiegelical source that just repeats what you've already been told, without any good research backing it up, either. Demand academic citation according to MLA format (standard can be found online). Demand documentation. Demand politely, but demand it. I can bet you dollars to dimes you won't get it. My first degree was in history. I'm not a historian by trade, but I can tell you one thing: if something can't be backed up, it's bullshit. Or creative speculation. Or storytelling. Or urban legend. Or whatever. But good scholarship, verifiable truth, it ain't. The thing about most people who make stupidass claims like this is that they really aren't going to listen to you if you refute them. (And all of the claims you post here are eminently refutable - Aristotle knew the earth was round, for instance. The Greeks came up with the fucking scientific method, for chrissakes, while the Israelites were stuck thinking that pi = 3.) Every single one of the things you mention is either bullshit or a flawed argument, but to the diehard fundie, that doesn't matter. They're more interested in upholding their spook than they are in dealing with reality. I'd expect that after some rather pointless arguing (about sources and the like), the chances are good they'll just end up huffing about how you can't possibly understand the truth of what they're saying because the holy spirit hasn't opened your blinded heathen eyes. Argh, it's late, and my resource-mining skills are fuzzy right now. I'd first ask for documentation though. Then I'd tackle the points themselves, if the documentation is worth its salt. Then I'd probably drink a whole fucking bottle of 150 proof holy spirits, just to deal with the frustration of trying to talk to somebody totally stuck in the fundie mindset. Anyway. I might have a better answer later. Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynus Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 "1- The amazing accuracy of the hisoricity of the bible. Every city and every town has been proven to have existed through archaelogical research, as has every coin mentioned, and many of the people mentioned. 2- The factual accounts of historical events, some of which, (like the story of the wordwide flood), have proven to be true, and have disproven Darwinian theories. 3- Scientific facts that could not have been understood naturally at the time. Some of these are: a) The world is round The world sits in space, supported by nothing c) The ocean has springs at the bottom d) wounds should be washed under running water, not still water e) air has weight These are only a few of many" 1. Just the opposite most recent work since 1980 has shown the biblical account before the time of the captivity to be almost all fiction. The towns did not exist and many figures such as David simply have left no evidence that has been uncovered. 2. Just not so. The worldwide flood has never been proven. 3. a. b. Not the OT view of the world at all, I suggest he read his bible. c. Says who? Apart from the bible. d. Common sense, people in ancient times were not stupid. The ancient Hebrews did not have a monopoly on medical knowledge. e. ????? Because he says it true doesn't make it so. This site has a lot of references that address some of these. Some of the sights are good but also a lot of crap. I guess it's a start. http://www.control-z.com/pages/rir.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 One of the recent pastors who deconverted addressed these issues on his deconversion website... if I have the time this morning, I'll find it for you; but it is in the Testimonies section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 http://users.tpg.com.au/mlsheen/history.htm Here's another one posted by another ex-pastor-- but I didn't find anything specific after a brief overview, the issues may be relevant-- http://www.ministerturnsatheist.org/ I would suggest reading some books on this stuff by Biblical Scholars (the academic kind, not the apologist kind). While these sites are good overviews, they aren't exactly everything there is out there or entirely "scholarly" but they do provide a view of an ex-apologist, which is what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qadeshet Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Each of the points you mention has been thoroughly discredited. The Bible clearly teaches a flat Earth. Jesus, even if he existed, never fulfilled a single Messianic prophecy. There was no global flood. There are hundreds of good links. You can find them below. skepticsannotatedbible.com/links Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 all of those are PRATTS , so dont expect to get anything when you ask him to back it up . Also , dont expect to convince him otherwise . Most people who make posts like that are only pretending to be willing to debate but in reality he just wants to spread dogma no matter how many times its been debunked . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I someties visit an evangelical Christian forum, an organisation here in the UK that attacks all other faiths and athiesm, to see what they are talking about. I've just visited it and a poster has started another thread to challenge me and other non-Christian posters who sometimes visit with a series of assertions: "1- The amazing accuracy of the hisoricity of the bible. Every city and every town has been proven to have existed through archaelogical research, as has every coin mentioned, and many of the people mentioned. 2- The factual accounts of historical events, some of which, (like the story of the wordwide flood), have proven to be true, and have disproven Darwinian theories. 3- Scientific facts that could not have been understood naturally at the time. Some of these are: a) The world is round The world sits in space, supported by nothing c) The ocean has springs at the bottom d) wounds should be washed under running water, not still water e) air has weight These are only a few of many" As for these `scientific facts' I shall ask the poster what passages they appear in. But in the meantime, does anyone know of web recourses regarding the non-accuracy of biblical history(wasn't there one passage where they mentioned coins that weren't in existance at the time?!") Oh I suppose the best site for you shall Paul Toubin Central Thesis If you don't have time check out the following Agnostic Review of Christianity Is the Bible Perfect? List of Historical And Scientific Errors In The Bible Bad History In The Book Of Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I have a lot of great sites links in MyStory link in my sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Would you mind sharing with us which Evangelical forum this is? But I concur with these comments above. I actually cannot even believe you would engage with anyone making such preposterous claims. My personal favorite is the earth "hanging" in space not supported by anything. Good grief, this person obviously doesn't believe in gravity either ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Beyond_Belief Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Great links, all, thanks! I have asked for biblical references. None provided yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathuria Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I'd have to agree with the others that mere reason and evidence will make not one dent in your opponent's faith-clouded mind. But who knows -- planting seeds of doubt can sometimes bear fruit, as the extimony forum shows. As for just the first point -- you're right, even if it were true it wouldn't prove anything. But it's not true. Frank Zindler's essay is rather caustic, but gives a good summation of the archeological knowledge about NT sites. Where Jesus Never Walked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Heaven for Kevin Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I have been reading "Man and His Gods". Awesome book! You can read it online here: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/homer1a.htm I honestly don't think many Christians will be interested in reading it, as it requires the abstract concepts of "effort", "thinking", and "research". It is a very good history of religion and thoroughly debunks the Christian assertion that the Bible is historically accurate. Plus it sheds a great deal of light on how the concepts of Jesus evolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Here's a couple of great links on the subject: http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference_...t_(Harpers).htm http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Reference_..._Be_Trusted.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 "1- The amazing accuracy of the hisoricity of the bible. Every city and every town has been proven to have existed through archaelogical research, as has every coin mentioned, and many of the people mentioned. So? Even if that's true it means nothing. 2- The factual accounts of historical events, some of which, (like the story of the wordwide flood), have proven to be true, and have disproven Darwinian theories. No. 3- Scientific facts that could not have been understood naturally at the time. Some of these are: Hahaha....oh god a) The world is round Understood at that time to be true and shown to be true by the Greeks. The world sits in space, supported by nothing That's not what the verse says, but that's not even technically true. c) The ocean has springs at the bottom Interpretation. d) wounds should be washed under running water, not still water I've read that passage, it has nothing to do with wounds. e) air has weight ....any moron could understand that. Whoever presented that to you is sadly lacking in intelligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Great links, all, thanks! I have asked for biblical references. None provided yet. You might get some. You might not. Kind of a crapshoot. Try asking for non-biblical, non-Xian sources. See what happens then. Hint: it's a bit like poking a snail. Chances are they'll just retreat into their shell. (After that, of course, you can roast them up with some rock salt and oodles of garlic butter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Hint: it's a bit like poking a snail. Chances are they'll just retreat into their shell. (After that, of course, you can roast them up with some rock salt and oodles of garlic butter. That is just bloody hillarious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Beyond_Belief Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Exhausted and frustrated, I’m giving Christian forums a miss for a while! I got a barrage of bible verses which were not relevant but which seemed imbued – to the believers anyway – with hidden explanation of how their interpretations was revealed from biblegod. And if it is the word of their god then they don't have to explain their thinking! I simply don’t have the time and energy at the moment to keep running around in circles trying to straighten crazy logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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