What Makes Us Different?

[Deva]

Here's one thing. I think that the truth could be hugely damaging to people.  It might be the thing that just runs them into the ground. It is not necessarily "comforting".  Not at all. I was prepare to accept that hell might be real or that maybe the end is just the end.  I looked into all the possibilities I could find.  How eager or how much do other people do that, or take that position?

[RipVanWinkle]

Wololo:If we are all the same and we can't know what or who you are deep inside, as you say, what did jesus mean when he said, You will know them by their fruits? What  are your fruits?   bill

[mfrunyan]

The ability to analyze facts independent of emotional feelings.

[slave2six]

IMO, the common threads are:

1. Accepting that you are responsible for your own thoughts and beliefs. 
2. A willingness to examine the faith objectively
3. A hunger for truth

All three of these are fairly uncommon.

 

Most people simply go to church to get their weekly reinforcement seminar and leave it to the professionals to do all the due diligence. I think that few religious people recognize that they are the final arbiters of truth for themselves.

 

Looking at the faith objectively has inherent dangers. But it is not until one is willing to examine matters for himself or herself and are willing to risk everything that they have believed in that they are even in a position to make an intelligent and correct decision on the matter.

 

Only people to whom truth is more important than upholding the party line will ever find it.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I've gotten the impression that many of us also don't like being told how to live our lives.  That was one of the major problems I had with christianity even as a child.

[florduh]

If the concept of God was really that extraordinary, there would be fewer people that believe.

 

I think an invisible, undetectable being who is all that and has whatever other traits one might assign to it is in fact a rather extraordinary proposal. We've just gotten used to its unquestioned role in society. How many millions believe in other unfounded and extraordinary claims such as Bigfoot, Nessie, and Reptilians? And those claims aren't even as extraordinary as the god claim.

 

L. Ron Hubbard has a book you need to read...

[midniterider]

I've gotten the impression that many of us also don't like being told how to live our lives.  That was one of the major problems I had with christianity even as a child.

 

That was the reason I finally rejected Christianity.

[Wololo]

 

If the concept of God was really that extraordinary, there would be fewer people that believe.

 

I think an invisible, undetectable being who is all that and has whatever other traits one might assign to it is in fact a rather extraordinary proposal. We've just gotten used to its unquestioned role in society. How many millions believe in other unfounded and extraordinary claims such as Bigfoot, Nessie, and Reptilians? And those claims aren't even as extraordinary as the god claim.

 

L. Ron Hubbard has a book you need to read...

 

 

It's one thing to argue that there is a God creator. It's quite another to start assigning traits to it. We need to be far more careful in determining what God is and isn't, IF he is to exist. To claim there is a creator God is not extraordinary. When you start claiming things about him, it does become harder to justify.

 

 

IMO, the common threads are:

1. Accepting that you are responsible for your own thoughts and beliefs. 
2. A willingness to examine the faith objectively
3. A hunger for truth

All three of these are fairly uncommon.

 

Most people simply go to church to get their weekly reinforcement seminar and leave it to the professionals to do all the due diligence. I think that few religious people recognize that they are the final arbiters of truth for themselves.

 

Looking at the faith objectively has inherent dangers. But it is not until one is willing to examine matters for himself or herself and are willing to risk everything that they have believed in that they are even in a position to make an intelligent and correct decision on the matter.

 

Only people to whom truth is more important than upholding the party line will ever find it.

 

I agree.

 

Wololo:If we are all the same and we can't know what or who you are deep inside, as you say, what did jesus mean when he said, You will know them by their fruits? What  are your fruits?   bill

 

We're not all exactly the same. When I mean same or similar, I'm usually referring to the fundamentals.

 

I think that the statement you quoted from Jesus is completely true even in a non-religious sense. You can tell what people are like from what you see manifest on the outside. You ex-Christians have all done it. You have seen the evils of the Church and you have called them evil. You see what the fruit of their beliefs are and you reject them. It's precisely the reason that I argue that many people who claim to be Christians aren't actually Christians. The fruit doesn't match the tree.

 

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit." - Galatians 5:22-25 ESV

"Thus you will recognize them by their fruits." - Matthew 7:20 ESV

 

 

The argument is essentially that Christians should live by the Spirit, and that you should recognize them by the fruit of their beliefs. If you do not see the fruits mentioned above, they are not Christians. It's not just about a single event, or even a few. This is about a lifetime of such attitudes and actions. If you see it consistently, then you know that they are people that truly represent their beliefs and can take on the name Christian.

 

I don't just apply this to Christians though. I apply this to anyone. If I see the above fruits anywhere, then I have no criticism for them. I have nothing against those people, regardless of their beliefs.

What I take issue with is all the line drawing. What differs me from you? Nothing really. You and I are both humans. We can throw labels around and hate each other for our beliefs, but that accomplishes nothing. We are humans first.

 

 

 

There is little that's different at all. Some of you like to be very rude (so are some of us). Some you are full of vitriol (so are some of us). Yes, you might think you're more honest or more skeptical, but the truth is...you don't know what I think deep on the inside. You don't know who I really am as a person. The reality from what I've seen is that there is no real difference between people who are Christians and people who aren't. You can try to draw lines all day but...there are no defining traits or behaviours. I am just as skeptical and as much of a critical thinker as all of you, it's just that I come to different conclusions. I weigh things a little bit differently and I'm a lot more comfortable with uncertainty.

 

If the concept of God was really that extraordinary, there would be fewer people that believe. There's nothing wrong with us, there's nothing wrong with you.

 

Agree or disagree, I'm 100% certain this is the case. We are all normal.

 

no, we are NOT all normal.  Pretty sure I"m not, for one.

 

 

To be weird is to be normal. It is normal to be weird.

 

 

I am just as skeptical and as much of a critical thinker as all of you

 

What I've seen from you so far has been quite the opposite of skepticism. I can identify with where you're coming from, though. When I was a believer, I also thought I was being logical and rational. However, I was indoctrinated with a lot of preconceptions that for a long time kept me from really being able to apply any real critical thinking to Christianity.

 

 

I don't raise skepticism on a pedestal. Use it to doubt, not destroy. It's not a weapon.

[gall]

There is little that's different at all. Some of you like to be very rude (so are some of us). Some you are full of vitriol (so are some of us). Yes, you might think you're more honest or more skeptical, but the truth is...you don't know what I think deep on the inside. You don't know who I really am as a person. The reality from what I've seen is that there is no real difference between people who are Christians and people who aren't. You can try to draw lines all day but...there are no defining traits or behaviours. I am just as skeptical and as much of a critical thinker as all of you, it's just that I come to different conclusions. I weigh things a little bit differently and I'm a lot more comfortable with uncertainty.

 

If the concept of God was really that extraordinary, there would be fewer people that believe. There's nothing wrong with us, there's nothing wrong with you.

 

Agree or disagree, I'm 100% certain this is the case. We are all normal.

 

the conclusions you draw here are just opinion and if you can accept that then the rest of what you say here is ok. There are only one type of people, the human kind. We don't all agree and some of us are far harsher than others.

 

How can you be 100% certain of anything if you are so skeptical like the rest of us? 100% certainty outside of your opinion for your life requires proof of something other than faith or opinions.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with you. I think that if we all though the same thing we would be boring and none of this would be worth doing.

 

There is no normal and that is something I am not 100% certain of. What I am 100% certain of is that my opinions are right... for me.

[gall]

 

 

If the concept of God was really that extraordinary, there would be fewer people that believe.

 

I think an invisible, undetectable being who is all that and has whatever other traits one might assign to it is in fact a rather extraordinary proposal. We've just gotten used to its unquestioned role in society. How many millions believe in other unfounded and extraordinary claims such as Bigfoot, Nessie, and Reptilians? And those claims aren't even as extraordinary as the god claim.

 

L. Ron Hubbard has a book you need to read...

 

 

It's one thing to argue that there is a God creator. It's quite another to start assigning traits to it. We need to be far more careful in determining what God is and isn't, IF he is to exist. To claim there is a creator God is not extraordinary. When you start claiming things about him, it does become harder to justify.

 

 

IMO, the common threads are:

1. Accepting that you are responsible for your own thoughts and beliefs. 
2. A willingness to examine the faith objectively
3. A hunger for truth

All three of these are fairly uncommon.

 

Most people simply go to church to get their weekly reinforcement seminar and leave it to the professionals to do all the due diligence. I think that few religious people recognize that they are the final arbiters of truth for themselves.

 

Looking at the faith objectively has inherent dangers. But it is not until one is willing to examine matters for himself or herself and are willing to risk everything that they have believed in that they are even in a position to make an intelligent and correct decision on the matter.

 

Only people to whom truth is more important than upholding the party line will ever find it.

 

I agree.

 

Wololo:If we are all the same and we can't know what or who you are deep inside, as you say, what did jesus mean when he said, You will know them by their fruits? What  are your fruits?   bill

 

We're not all exactly the same. When I mean same or similar, I'm usually referring to the fundamentals.

 

I think that the statement you quoted from Jesus is completely true even in a non-religious sense. You can tell what people are like from what you see manifest on the outside. You ex-Christians have all done it. You have seen the evils of the Church and you have called them evil. You see what the fruit of their beliefs are and you reject them. It's precisely the reason that I argue that many people who claim to be Christians aren't actually Christians. The fruit doesn't match the tree.

 

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit." - Galatians 5:22-25 ESV

"Thus you will recognize them by their fruits." - Matthew 7:20 ESV

 

 

The argument is essentially that Christians should live by the Spirit, and that you should recognize them by the fruit of their beliefs. If you do not see the fruits mentioned above, they are not Christians. It's not just about a single event, or even a few. This is about a lifetime of such attitudes and actions. If you see it consistently, then you know that they are people that truly represent their beliefs and can take on the name Christian.

 

I don't just apply this to Christians though. I apply this to anyone. If I see the above fruits anywhere, then I have no criticism for them. I have nothing against those people, regardless of their beliefs.

What I take issue with is all the line drawing. What differs me from you? Nothing really. You and I are both humans. We can throw labels around and hate each other for our beliefs, but that accomplishes nothing. We are humans first.

 

 

 

There is little that's different at all. Some of you like to be very rude (so are some of us). Some you are full of vitriol (so are some of us). Yes, you might think you're more honest or more skeptical, but the truth is...you don't know what I think deep on the inside. You don't know who I really am as a person. The reality from what I've seen is that there is no real difference between people who are Christians and people who aren't. You can try to draw lines all day but...there are no defining traits or behaviours. I am just as skeptical and as much of a critical thinker as all of you, it's just that I come to different conclusions. I weigh things a little bit differently and I'm a lot more comfortable with uncertainty.

 

If the concept of God was really that extraordinary, there would be fewer people that believe. There's nothing wrong with us, there's nothing wrong with you.

 

Agree or disagree, I'm 100% certain this is the case. We are all normal.

 

no, we are NOT all normal.  Pretty sure I"m not, for one.

 

 

To be weird is to be normal. It is normal to be weird.

 

 

I am just as skeptical and as much of a critical thinker as all of you

 

What I've seen from you so far has been quite the opposite of skepticism. I can identify with where you're coming from, though. When I was a believer, I also thought I was being logical and rational. However, I was indoctrinated with a lot of preconceptions that for a long time kept me from really being able to apply any real critical thinking to Christianity.

 

 

I don't raise skepticism on a pedestal. Use it to doubt, not destroy. It's not a weapon.

 

 

Actually it is  weapon against those that would use someone elses weakness against them to control them or the way they live. it is a weapon against lies and injustice and a weapon that should be liberally used when any claim is made of anything that someone is not openly willing to try and provide or find proof for.

 

Skepticism should be raised higher than it is really. To few peope employ it in their lives and they make massive mistakes because they are easily lead and not critical enough. If more people had more of that then fewer people would see it as unreasonable behavior.

 

I love being skeptical because it gives me a reason to go learn things. It helps to drive us to find answers and then challenge those answers to see where we stand.