A Dad Who Wants To Debate

[FreeThinkerNZ]

A relatively new member PMd me asking for advice, and I suggested asking fellow members to have input.  

 

He's a young guy only recently deconverted and still living very much under his parents' fundy oversight.  

 

I have suggested that its ok to tell his Dad he doesn't want to discuss xianity, as his Dad seems to want to debate late into the night.  I would find that annoying, to say the least.

 

Here's what he asked:

 

"[My Dad talked about] the concept of the "remnant" Church, an organization that holds stringently to what Jesus said and is based off of a long tradition of hyper-orthodox churches. As far as I can remember from my introduction to western religion class, this is an asinine statement. Can you help me figure out the truth?

"Also, I really need help buttressing my arguments as to why Evolution from one species to another (ie, Primates to Humans, Dinosaurs to Birds, etc.) is real. Do you know any good studies or just general overview?

 

"I guess to shore up, I could use some advice on how debate my Dad. He constantly calls me arrogant, which really doesn't make sense to me, says that I'm biased against God and therefore am not doing any real research, uses personality flaws that I have (in particular, I have a tendency to lie to avoid imminent trouble) to basically "expose the flawed morality of atheism", and will not accept any source I mention because either it's a "liberal lie to destroy Christianity", from the internet (and therefore somehow instantly unreliable), or both. I really don't know how to argue against him, and I really need advice."

 

I've also suggested to him that he studies this information about the theory of evolution: 

http://evolution.ber..._teacherfaq.php

 

Thanks 

FTNZ

[Overcame Faith]

Dear New Member,

 

Your age makes a difference in this situation. If you are a minor living at home, you may want to cool it with your Dad because being a dependent, questioning their religion can cause problems for you.

 

No matter your age, based on your description of how your dad reacts to what you say, he is trying to pull parental rank on you. He is setting unfair debate standards so his point of view has an unfair advantage. Personally, I wouldn't waste my time discussing the issues with such a person. You may want to let him watch some debates on YouTube like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens (deceased), Daniel Dennett, and other similar individuals. The good thing about those debates is that they do not impose your dad's unfair and biased rules.

 

Best of luck

[Sheerbliss]

It's hard to avoid arguing with someone who insists on arguing, even though you probably won't change their mind. But it might be worth pointing out that looking at the Bible as a product of the time and place it was written and accepting evolution as fact aren't atheist ideas--mainstream people who happen to be Christians generally accept these ideas. Pretty much every serious scholar in these fields does, too.

 

Biblical scholars--the serious ones who go to or work at seminaries--don't study the bible as a science book or a carefully researched history book. It's well accepted that the gospels were written long after Jesus died (if he in fact lived) and that certain ideas from the New Testament came from Greek culture. 

 

Evolution is taught as fact in biology class at Brigham Young University (so I've read a few places) and at Catholic schools. Even the Pope endorses evolution. 

[mymistake]

A teen living with fundamentalist parent's shouldn't try to debate with them.  Based on the OP I would say the dad is not interested in honest debate.  Rather this sounds like an underhanded scheme on the dad's part.  The dad is probably imagining that this is the pathway to lead the son back to Christianity.  If somebody isn't open to other perspectives or alternative ideas what could possibly be accomplished by a debate with them?  Furthermore Christians tend to hate it when confronted by information that means their religion is false.  So this is going to lead to a rocky relationship.

 

With my fundie mother I stick to responses like "I don't want to talk about it", "your wouldn't like the answer" or "you wouldn't understand".  Things get ugly when we have real conversation about religion.

[Aiyana]

This is a really unfair argument. The dad sounds well-versed in church history and creationist "science", whereas the son, most likely due to his upbringing, has not had the opportunity to study science to the extent that he could hold his ground in arguing back.

 

I would say something like, "Dad, these are the reasons I don't believe in Christianity: Reason A...  Reason B...  Reason C." (It might be good to focus on "heart" reasons, rather than things Dad will feel like he can argue.) Then say, "As for evolution, I freely admit that it's something I'm just beginning to learn about. But I trust that the scientists who passionately love what they do and dedicate their lives to it, know what they are talking about. The group I don't trust are the creationists, who feel the need to begin their books with statements like, 'You may have heard that the earth is millions of years old. We are here to tell you that is a lie.' Whereas secular scientists feel no such need to begin with, 'You may have heard that the earth is six thousand years old.' They have no need to pay any attention to such claims because they know that the science which they have devoted their lives to, stands on its own. I have no cause, Dad, to be suspicious of them."

[midniterider]

 

{Dad] says that I'm biased against God and therefore am not doing any real research, uses personality flaws that I have (in particular, I have a tendency to lie to avoid imminent trouble) to basically "expose the flawed morality of atheism", and will not accept any source I mention because either it's a "liberal lie to destroy Christianity", from the internet (and therefore somehow instantly unreliable), or both. I really don't know how to argue against him, and I really need advice."

 

Research? You mean like Ask, Seek, Knock? Why does someone need to research that which ought to be plainly self-evident? The only reason a Christian needs to research anything is because Jesus is not self-evident. The totality of Jesus is a story and nothing more.

 

Regarding lies, Christianity is a lie. It has no foundation. It is a myth.

 

If it is possible, don't respond to Dad. Fight the urge to debate. He's not interested in anything you have to say against Christianity anyway. Why engage at all?

[Merlin]

Dear New Member,

 

My father was a fundamentalist Southern Baptist minister.  When I first started having doubts about the validity of the Christian faith, I tried to approach him openly and honestly about my concerns.  Unfortunately, I received the exact same treatment that you are receiving.  I felt like I was intellectually bullied into a corner nearly every time I would bring up any counter point that I believed to be valid.  My father would use what I now like to call, "sleight of hand pseudo science and history", to make me feel like I didn't know what I was talking about.  Eventually, I got a whole lot better at coming up with hard to defeat arguments.  However, this was not necessarily a 'good thing' as far as my relationship with my father was concerned.  I finally gave up debating my father altogether after a couple of scary and slightly dehumanizing events took place.

 

First, I made the mistake of questioning the Bible's stance on homosexuality at the dinner table.  My father stood up at the dinner table and snidely asked me if I was a 'faggot'.  He then preached to me in front of my whole family on how and why I was so wrong to question the authority of the Bible.

 

Secondly, I made the mistake of telling my dad that I just plain thought he was wrong about another Biblical issue.  I'm not sure what the debate was about, but I do know that I came within inches of getting punched in the face.  The only thing that stopped my dad from swinging his white knuckled and tightly clenched fist at me was the future of his career as a minister.

 

I am not making any of this up.  So, my advice to you would be to way the pros and cons of engaging in a debate with your father.  It does not sound like he is a reasonable person, and you may run the risk of incurring his wrath which could lead to further problems that negatively affect you down the road.  You need a place to live, eat, and sleep.  So try to keep that in mind.  I know it isn't easy, but one day, you'll have the independence and freedom to do and say all you want without the threat of upsetting your happy home.

 

I freely admit that I don't know your situation like you do.  So, ultimately, you have to be the one to decide how far you want to take your debates.  Regardless of what you decide to do, just try to keep a clear head on your shoulders.  

[Lucy]

"expose the flawed morality of atheism" - The Bible's morality is horribly flawed particularly in the OT. There are many examples of this which you can show him. We don't stone disobedient children anymore. Morality is a separate concept from atheism. He is linking the two because he feels that moral codes come from god. People all over the world believe in different gods and follow different moral codes. Where are others getting their moral codes? From the fake gods? Atheism is just a view on whether or not a god exists. Atheism doesn't address the topic of morality. It doesn't have anything to do with moral codes. Societies create their own moral codes. Then some societies ascribe those moral codes to a god to grant more authority to them.

 

"liberal lie to destroy Christianity" - This is why I wouldn't bother to debate him. It sounds like he believes that people are lying on purpose to destroy Christianity. That implies conspiratorial thinking that any proof you show him is some fake data thought up to undermine his religion. That means that the people spreading this lie actually believe Christianity is true, but they are saying things against it because they have a grudge against god. If his worldview is shaped this way then you can't really get through to him because he doesn't really believe you lack a belief in god. He thinks atheists are just angry with god. He doesn't believe in atheists as "someone lacking a belief in god" but rather "someone denying god's existence because of some personal issue causing them to want god not to exist." You shouldn't have to defend the position that there is no god. Your position should be that you don't see valid reasons to believe.

 

---

 

Most parents arguing with children feel superiority to the point that they will refuse to use logic and respect when dealing with their own children. People don't want to be wrong. Disagreeing with him on this is letting him know that his own child thinks he is wrong on the most important issue in the world. That's a big deal. The Bible and our culture agree that he is the head of the household. So in his mind, he has a divine right to force his beliefs on you. If others in his social circle knew that you don't believe, it would probably embarrass him. He probably also feels guilty that you are going to hell and he has failed as a father. I'm sure he loves you and feels like converting you back to Christianity is going to save you from burning in hell forever some day. So he has plenty of reasons to want to make you Christian again.

 

I wouldn't want to debate with him. Depending on your age and how bad it is, it might be better to just feign agreement with him. I know a lot of people would disagree with me on this. But you know what would make your life more pleasant until you're old enough to leave.  I don't feel there is any moral imperative to be honest with him about this if he is putting you in severe psychological stress over it. Whichever option gives you a less stressful existence is the one you should choose. Once you're out of the house, do what you please. You should be able to have your own private time to yourself without him keeping you up late at night arguing about nonsense. Once you're out of the house he can't do that anymore so you can stand your ground better.

 

If your father is really wanting to debate, then you can set him up with some people online who actually would want to debate with him. Nobody should be forced into debates if they don't want to debate. Debating is stressful if the other person acts angry the whole time. Any sort of debating or discussion on this issue should be about trying to come to the most correct conclusion. There is no purpose in debating an angry person who is unreasonable and assuming themselves to be absolutely correct. People really don't want to be wrong, even on minor issues of no importance. He has put a lot of time and energy into this belief. He will not change his mind. 

 

 

If he wants to debate with you reasonably then he needs to allow you time to research your answers instead of demanding answers on the spot. If he is going to dismiss any research you find as "liberal lies" then don't bother. It's not a real debate. Tell him you want to set a time frame that you have your god discussions in so he doesn't keep you up all night. Talk about it during a set time frame. Then research and resume it at another set time frame. You don't want this going on all the time.

[mwc]

     Don't lie.  This is a bad thing to learn and will do you a disservice in any future relationship(s) you might have.

 

     In fact, everything I've read is teaching you bad behaviors for future relationships.

 

     You don't need to argue any of these things because your dad is arguing dishonestly and unfairly.  When it comes right down to it only his sources are allowed and that's that.  Now, I would imagine that you could argue out of his sources but you could never stand a chance doing that.  The only way to even make a dent with that strategy is to use only the bible and show how it contradicts itself, however, no xian ultimately cares about that.

 

     Your best bet at this point may be to ask what sources are acceptable and then just make some appearances of going over them.  If it looks like you're doing something along the lines of what he wants he may well just back off but I don't know the man so it's just a guess based on how these things tend to be.  Then just try to fly below the radar for as long as you need to.

 

          mwc

[Lucy]

     Don't lie.  This is a bad thing to learn and will do you a disservice in any future relationship(s) you might have.

 

     In fact, everything I've read is teaching you bad behaviors for future relationships.

 

 

 

 

If a person does not want to debate, they should not be forced into staying up all night debating. I'm not saying that is the case in this situation since the person seems to want to debate. If the minor in question wants to debate, then by all means debate. But if you don't want to debate, tell him you don't want to debate it or discuss it anymore.

 

 

The issue is the law doesn't allow a minor the same rights as an adult. In future adult relationships, you have the option of leaving the relationship if an abusive behavior doesn't stop. You don't have the option of leaving your parents until you are 18 unless they are physically or sexually abusing you. If someone is keeping you up all night debating religion against your will that is a psychological abuse. It needs to stop. If it's not possible to stop it by rationalizing with the parent, then you're stuck with being badgered with constant proselytizing. It is best to try to reach a rational agreement first. But if the parent won't let up, then you'll just be in a never ending debate. The individual must decide which is the best option for themselves. It's bad to lie. It's also bad to be constantly harassed into debating against your will when you have no ability to get out of the situation.

 

Again, I am not saying that is the case here since the minor in question seem to want to debate.

[Ellinas]

When my parents wanted to pressure me on any issue by "debating" it, I simply met them with a stony silence.  Difficult to argue with those who say nothing and just go their own way regardless.  Whether that will work in this situation, however, very much depends on the personalities involved.

[mwc]

 

It's bad to lie. It's also bad to be constantly harassed into debating against your will when you have no ability to get out of the situation.

     I'm not sure exactly why they're lying or what they are lying about since we're getting all second-hand information here but from what I can gather it's apparently not effective and being used against them so there's no point in doing it.  It will just lead to more useless lying in future arguments.  It seems passive-aggressive which will just cause even more problems down the road.  It seems a bad habit to form for no gain and any number of potential losses since most people (ie. future partners) don't care to be dealt with in this way.

 

     I understand that we're talking about a minor which carries specific problems and in this situation you sometimes have to go along to get along.  Obviously lying during an argument isn't usually the best course of action since that severely impacts trust and could cause someone who is clearly already fearful become far worse which I think is the opposite of what is wanted.

 

     I don't really know if we're truly disagreeing here or if maybe I'm just not explaining my position all that well.

 

          mwc

[SageHealer]

Unfortunately, you CANNOT debate with someone who is hell-bound to disagree with you and PROVE how right they are.  Just be true to who you are, lead a joyful life, and let that be your answer to them.

[FarflungWanderer]

I don't really have much to say, but I think we're sorta assuming this member's a minor.

 

I think, as we don't know, we also need to consider what to do if said member *isn't* a minor, but is still dragged into these arguments.

 

I really don't know enough to help, though.

[Sheerbliss]

I didn't suggest that anyone lie. A lot of members here came from groups that take the bible literally, but these are not mainstream ideas, especially among people who've studied scholarly works about the Bible that would never, ever be discussed at a church bible study. 

 

Learning this may come as a surprise to the new member's father. Or the new member could let his father take it that he's seriously studying ancient Christianity and let it go at that. 

 

Being honest doesn't always mean telling all--a person needs discretion. It's stressful to be subjected to constant pestering, and there may be other people in the house who have to listen to these arguments. When you consider that even Richard Dawkins probably didn't convince any of the true believers he debated, there's not much point in the new member debating his father.

[mymistake]

I don't really have much to say, but I think we're sorta assuming this member's a minor.

 

I think, as we don't know, we also need to consider what to do if said member *isn't* a minor, but is still dragged into these arguments.

 

I really don't know enough to help, though.

 

 

Might be a minor or a young adult who still can't afford to move out.  Both scenarios happen all the time.  Generally the best policy most of the time is to avoid arguments with one's parents.  There is a very slim chance that anything good would come out of a debate yet so much could go wrong.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Ok from what I can tell, this guy is 18 and studying at college.  His Dad regularly threatens to cut his funding.  He really struggles with the idea of avoiding his Dad, who is very pushy.  It sounds like one of the more extreme examples I've seen here.  

 

Although to us it seems obvious that there's no point debating or engaging with the Dad, whether that's possible is another matter.  What are some factual points we could offer this guy, based on the points raised in the OP?

[ToHellWithMe]

Ok from what I can tell, this guy is 18 and studying at college.  His Dad regularly threatens to cut his funding.

One fact is that formal education is becoming less and less necessary for learning things, thanks to the Internet. In some cases and cultures getting a degree might be crucial, of course.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Ok from what I can tell, this guy is 18 and studying at college.  His Dad regularly threatens to cut his funding.

One fact is that formal education is becoming less and less necessary for learning things, thanks to the Internet. In some cases and cultures getting a degree might be crucial, of course.

 

I think getting a college education is really important.  Fortunately there are ways to put yourself through college, but if you can get parents to pay for it, even better.

[ToHellWithMe]

I think getting a college education is really important.  Fortunately there are ways to put yourself through college, but if you can get parents to pay for it, even better.

It surely can be useful in any case. Depends on the field of study whether it is necessary, though. In IT you actually shoot yourself in the foot if you think you can rely on lectures and assignments to teach you.

 

I think it is worth pondering. If you realize it is perhaps not necessary for you, might take some weight off your shoulders.

Also, I think it is healthy to question your need for high standard of living altogether, including ever landing a job that pays well. Even more weight off your shoulders.

[25YearsLater]

Personally, I think this guy needs to grow up a bit, just as I did, when I was 18 and feeling the need to defend my position against my parents' onslaught.

 

It was the opposite way round for me - I was the Christian, and they were trying to deconvert me.  However, from their point of view, the situation was exactly the same - they believed that their precious son had gone off the rails, and would use all tools available in an attempt to get him to see sense.

 

As others have said, attempts to argue will be fruitless, indeed counterproductive, since they will just sour the existing relationship even more.  The positions are far too entrenched, with far too much invested, for there to be any chance of anyone changing their minds.

 

In addition, such arguments will waste an enormous amount of the lad's time, when actually, he should be studying.

 

I would suggest a stance as follows:

• Respect the dad's position and recognise that he does not get up every morning and start figuring out how to fcuk up his son's life: he almost certainly does want the best for him.  Being misguided about what's best does not change this.
• Make a commitment, when time allows (preferably after graduation), to investigate thoroughly his dad's points and think honestly and deeply about them.  He clearly has not done this, if he has to come here in search for weapons.
• Other than that, politely, lovingly and firmly refuse to enter into debates - on the grounds that [a] he loves his parents and doesn't want to contribute to conflict and  they take up a lot of time and energy, that at his current point in life is best spent studying.  If his dad makes snotty comments in an attempt to provoke, grow a pair and suck it up.
• And stop being a big baby.  Lying to avoid getting told off is understandable at age 2, but he should have grown out of that by now.  Respect though, for the honesty to admit it - just convert that awareness into action.

Seriously - concentrating on the things that are important (studying, and appreciating family despite the disagreement) will gain him far more in the long term.

 

Deconverting his parents is definitely not important at this time.

 

 

 

 

[Ellinas]

I think the post immediately above this represents a generally correct approach.  I would refuse the argument - politely at first and, if that doesn't work, by simply refusing to discuss and remaining silent.

 

In terms of dealing with religious views on evolution, he can do little better than to google "debunk creationist arguments".  As regards the "remnant church" - that is a common enough aspect of fundamentalist thought and is rooted in Christian "fortress mentality".  Google "remnant church" and you'll find links to Seventh Day Adventist, Mormon and various other groups - most of whom hate each other and cannot all be remnants.

 

But, really, I don't fancy the chances of an attempt to debate this having a good outcome.  Particularly if refusing to buckle to the father's will is going to end up in college funding going west

[Sheerbliss]

I wish we could hear from the new member. It's hard to say whether this will blow over in a few months, or if Dad is the socially clueless type who doesn't know how much heartburn he's causing, is bluffing about withholding college tuition, or is a real SOB, or what.

 

Also, what kind of education is the new member pursuing? Is it something he'd pay for himself if he had to, or is he going to college just because? I ask because letting yourself be controlled by someone for money isn't a good long-term plan, in so many ways.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

I think getting a college education is really important.  Fortunately there are ways to put yourself through college, but if you can get parents to pay for it, even better.

It surely can be useful in any case. Depends on the field of study whether it is necessary, though. In IT you actually shoot yourself in the foot if you think you can rely on lectures and assignments to teach you.

 

I think it is worth pondering. If you realize it is perhaps not necessary for you, might take some weight off your shoulders.

Also, I think it is healthy to question your need for high standard of living altogether, including ever landing a job that pays well. Even more weight off your shoulders.

 

 

IMO education is the key to a fulfilling life.  The impact on earning potential is a side benefit.  I would not suggest to an 18 year old that they should give up their hopes and dreams just because their Dad is an asshole.  No, we should be encouraging the young to go out there and take advantage of all life has to offer.

 

I wish we could hear from the new member. It's hard to say whether this will blow over in a few months, or if Dad is the socially clueless type who doesn't know how much heartburn he's causing, is bluffing about withholding college tuition, or is a real SOB, or what.

 

Also, what kind of education is the new member pursuing? Is it something he'd pay for himself if he had to, or is he going to college just because? I ask because letting yourself be controlled by someone for money isn't a good long-term plan, in so many ways.

 

He has been reading the thread and I hope to have something to add from PMs.  I admit, it would have been easier if he had just started the thread himself, but I was just trying to help him out.  I'm sure he appreciates everyone's help.

 

From what I've read so far, the Dad fits into the "real SOB" category I'm afraid.

 

I have a lot of compassion for this young man because he didn't ask for this... his faith disappeared and he found himself at odds with his father, at a time when that's a real pain in the ass for him.  I've read many similar stories here.

[ToHellWithMe]

IMO education is the key to a fulfilling life.  The impact on earning potential is a side benefit.  I would not suggest to an 18 year old that they should give up their hopes and dreams just because their Dad is an asshole.  No, we should be encouraging the young to go out there and take advantage of all life has to offer.

You are the one who is now getting close to equating schooling with hopes and dreams and suggesting that the dad might take away those. It is the opposite I am trying to say here: the dad has no such power. He can only take away what was his to begin with. That can mean you have to take another route, but in the end that route may get you where you wanted just as well if not better than the money route.