The Omnipotence Of God

[bdp]

'god' thinks that schoolchildren being slaughtered wholesale in their own classrooms is an acceptable side effect of 'free will.'  This 'god' who put 'sin' on mankind in the first place and could have removed it AT ANY POINT and yet thinks more and more carnage is perfectly acceptable, even after this 'god' allegedly got the blood sacrifice it somehow decided it needed to have to absolve mankind of the 'sins' that 'god' itself is responsible for.  If I were to believe 'god' exists I also have to believe that 'god' is responsible for, and perfectly fine with, every bit of unspeakable horror that befalls every human being on the planet.  If I could somehow come to any sort of belief in the existence of such a being I could only conclude that it's sole interest is in seeing who is willing to kiss it's ass.  I do more justice to the Xtian deity by rejecting it's possible existence.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

God created us with free wills. He did not created programmed

robots.

 

This freedom allows us to make our own choices.

This is why I call him God and not a tyrant.

 

You are NOT allowed to talk about free will and its whitewashing of God any more.  The biblical basis for the free will doctrine, and for the work you want it to do in your system, has already been refuted on here many times.  Refuted by Centauri, BAA, Ravenstar, mymistake, and many others.

 

You are not allowed to bring up the "free will" meme anymore UNLESS you refute the refutations.

 

"I believe" has zero credibility.

 

 

Agree F.

 

This thread is about omnipotence, but when writes Ironhorse's, "I believe" ...that is impotence.

[ironhorse]

 

 

Christians, how do you respond to this?

 

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

 

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

 

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

 

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?"

 

Epicurus was a Greek philosopher who lived 341-270 BCE.

 

 

Job, the oldest book in the Bible, answers some but does not

answer all questions about suffering and evil.

As a believer, I think that one day God may reveal more and we will get a broader understanding and see the reasons why.

God created us with free wills. He did not created programmed

robots.

 

This freedom allows us to make our own choices.

This is why I call him God and not a tyrant.

 

 

And yet the pivotal meetings in Job (the encounters between God and Satan) is an impossibility... according to scripture-based Christian theology.

 

God cannot tolerate the close presence of sin or sinners.

Likewise, Satan could not have approached God without being destroyed.

So how can Satan have come to present himself before God, as in Job 1 : 6 -12 and Job 2 : 1 - 7...?

 

Any faith Ironhorse puts in the veracity of the book of Job is therefore... mistaken.

 

It is fiction.

 

 

 

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

~Job 1:6

 

The scripture does not say Satan entered Heaven but he came before God. His access was temporary, not permanent. This is important in understanding. It is true that God's nature cannot tolerate sin in his presence so Satan's presence was before God not a full welcome and access to Heaven. Satan also came before Jesus in the wilderness to tempt him. 

 

This changed after Jesus was crucified and resurrected.

As Jesus was going to the cross He said the following: “Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.”

~John 12:31

Satan is now bound to earth. He no longer has access before God as he once had.

[bdp]

...and Gollum fell into the fires of Mordor along with the One Ring.  Groovy.

[mymistake]

 

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

~Job 1:6

 

The scripture does not say Satan entered Heaven but he came before God. His access was temporary, not permanent. This is important in understanding. It is true that God's nature cannot tolerate sin in his presence so Satan's presence was before God not a full welcome and access to Heaven. Satan also came before Jesus in the wilderness to tempt him. 

 

This changed after Jesus was crucified and resurrected.

As Jesus was going to the cross He said the following: “Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.”

~John 12:31

Satan is now bound to earth. He no longer has access before God as he once had.

 

 

You contradict yourself.  If it is true that God's nature cannot tolerate sin in his presence then Satan wouldn't have temporary access to God.  And of course if God is everywhere then human sinners would not exist.

 

 

 

Christian theology is a cluster fuck of contradictions.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Job, the oldest book in the Bible, answers some but does not

answer all questions about suffering and evil.

As a believer, I think that one day God may reveal more and we will get a broader understanding and see the reasons why.

God created us with free wills. He did not created programmed

robots.

 

This freedom allows us to make our own choices.

This is why I call him God and not a tyrant.

 

 

And yet the pivotal meetings in Job (the encounters between God and Satan) is an impossibility... according to scripture-based Christian theology.

 

God cannot tolerate the close presence of sin or sinners.

Likewise, Satan could not have approached God without being destroyed.

So how can Satan have come to present himself before God, as in Job 1 : 6 -12 and Job 2 : 1 - 7...?

 

Any faith Ironhorse puts in the veracity of the book of Job is therefore... mistaken.

 

It is fiction.

 

 

 

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

~Job 1:6

 

The scripture does not say Satan entered Heaven but he came before God. His access was temporary, not permanent. This is important in understanding. It is true that God's nature cannot tolerate sin in his presence so Satan's presence was before God not a full welcome and access to Heaven.

 

The key point is not Satan's presence in heaven but Satan's proximity to God, Ironhorse.

 

Heaven is a created domain (see Genesis 1 : 1) and is not holy in of itself, whereas God the Father is holiness personified.

 

The holiness of God and the sin of Satan cannot be brought together, yet in Job 1 : 12 and 2 : 7 we clearly see that Satan left the presence of the God.  If he left the presence of the God, then he must have been in the presence of God before he left it.

 

THAT is impossible.  You said it yourself... God's nature cannot tolerate the presence of sin.

 

Satan also came before Jesus in the wilderness to tempt him. 

 

False comparison.

 

Jesus was God incarnated in human form, to become the necessary sin sacrifice on the cross.

It was Jesus' purpose to become sin - so Satan being with him was not a problem.  If anything, Jesus being in Satan's sinful presence was a foreshadowing of what was to come.

 

You are making a false comparison between two distinct members of the Trinity.

 

Jesus can tolerate the presence of sin, whereas God the Father cannot.  Scripture confirms this.

 

1 Timothy 6 :  13 - 16

 

13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 

14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 

15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 

16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light,whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

 

This changed after Jesus was crucified and resurrected.

As Jesus was going to the cross He said the following: “Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.”

~John 12:31

Satan is now bound to earth. He no longer has access before God as he once had.

 

 

God lives in unapproachable light, Ironhorse.

 

Satan could not approach him, as described (twice) in Job.

 

That is impossible.

 

That is why Job is fiction!

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

Christians, how do you respond to this?

 

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

 

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

 

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

 

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?"

 

Epicurus was a Greek philosopher who lived 341-270 BCE.

 

 

Job, the oldest book in the Bible, answers some but does not

answer all questions about suffering and evil.

As a believer, I think that one day God may reveal more and we will get a broader understanding and see the reasons why.

God created us with free wills. He did not created programmed

robots.

 

This freedom allows us to make our own choices.

This is why I call him God and not a tyrant.

 

 

And yet the pivotal meetings in Job (the encounters between God and Satan) is an impossibility... according to scripture-based Christian theology.

 

God cannot tolerate the close presence of sin or sinners.

Likewise, Satan could not have approached God without being destroyed.

So how can Satan have come to present himself before God, as in Job 1 : 6 -12 and Job 2 : 1 - 7...?

 

Any faith Ironhorse puts in the veracity of the book of Job is therefore... mistaken.

 

It is fiction.

 

 

 

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

~Job 1:6

 

The scripture does not say Satan entered Heaven but he came before God. His access was temporary, not permanent. This is important in understanding. It is true that God's nature cannot tolerate sin in his presence so Satan's presence was before God not a full welcome and access to Heaven. Satan also came before Jesus in the wilderness to tempt him. 

 

This changed after Jesus was crucified and resurrected.

As Jesus was going to the cross He said the following: “Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.”

~John 12:31

Satan is now bound to earth. He no longer has access before God as he once had.

 

 

There was no change after Jesus' resurrection, Ironhorse.

 

Satan never had any kind of access to god's presence - because he sinned from the beginning.

 

1 John 3 : 7 & 8.

 

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 

8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

.

.

.

This totally contradicts the book of Job, where Satan enters God's presence... twice!

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Job, the oldest book in the Bible, answers some but does not

answer all questions about suffering and evil.

As a believer, I think that one day God may reveal more and we will get a broader understanding and see the reasons why.

God created us with free wills. He did not created programmed

robots.

 

This freedom allows us to make our own choices.

This is why I call him God and not a tyrant.

 

 

And yet the pivotal meetings in Job (the encounters between God and Satan) is an impossibility... according to scripture-based Christian theology.

 

God cannot tolerate the close presence of sin or sinners.

Likewise, Satan could not have approached God without being destroyed.

So how can Satan have come to present himself before God, as in Job 1 : 6 -12 and Job 2 : 1 - 7...?

 

Any faith Ironhorse puts in the veracity of the book of Job is therefore... mistaken.

 

It is fiction.

 

 

 

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

~Job 1:6

 

The scripture does not say Satan entered Heaven but he came before God. His access was temporary, not permanent. This is important in understanding. It is true that God's nature cannot tolerate sin in his presence so Satan's presence was before God not a full welcome and access to Heaven.

 

The key point is not Satan's presence in heaven but Satan's proximity to God, Ironhorse.

 

Heaven is a created domain (see Genesis 1 : 1) and is not holy in of itself, whereas God the Father is holiness personified.

 

The holiness of God and the sin of Satan cannot be brought together, yet in Job 1 : 12 and 2 : 7 we clearly see that Satan left the presence of the God.  If he left the presence of the God, then he must have been in the presence of God before he left it.

 

THAT is impossible.  You said it yourself... God's nature cannot tolerate the presence of sin.

 

Satan also came before Jesus in the wilderness to tempt him. 

 

False comparison.

 

Jesus was God incarnated in human form, to become the necessary sin sacrifice on the cross.

It was Jesus' purpose to become sin - so Satan being with him was not a problem.  If anything, Jesus being in Satan's sinful presence was a foreshadowing of what was to come.

 

You are making a false comparison between two distinct members of the Trinity.

 

Jesus can tolerate the presence of sin, whereas God the Father cannot.  Scripture confirms this.

 

1 Timothy 6 :  13 - 16

 

13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 

14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 

15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 

16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light,whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

 

This changed after Jesus was crucified and resurrected.

As Jesus was going to the cross He said the following: “Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.”

~John 12:31

Satan is now bound to earth. He no longer has access before God as he once had.

 

 

God lives in unapproachable light, Ironhorse.

 

Satan could not approach him, as described (twice) in Job.

 

That is impossible.

 

That is why Job is fiction!

 

 

 

 

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light,whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever."

 

"God lives in unapproachable light, Ironhorse."

 

 

I agree with you on this BAA. 

 

It is my understanding that this is referring to viewing the totality of God's being and essence. No person can see the completeness of God in one compressed image and live. I'm not sure my words express what I am trying to say.

 

The verse also seems to infers that God exists beyond the speed of light.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

It is my understanding that this is referring to viewing the totality of God's being and essence. No person can see the completeness of God in one compressed image and live. I'm not sure my words express what I am trying to say.

 

The verse also seems to infers that God exists beyond the speed of light.

 

 

So you have no idea what any of these concepts mean.

 

 

It is particularly funny that you think God's existence is a range of speed. 

 

When the Millennium Falcon does the Kessel Run in less that 12 parsecs does it pass through God?

[sdelsolray]

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

~Job 1:6

 

The scripture does not say Satan entered Heaven but he came before God. His access was temporary, not permanent. This is important in understanding. It is true that God's nature cannot tolerate sin in his presence so Satan's presence was before God not a full welcome and access to Heaven. Satan also came before Jesus in the wilderness to tempt him. 

 

This changed after Jesus was crucified and resurrected.

As Jesus was going to the cross He said the following: “Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.”

~John 12:31

Satan is now bound to earth. He no longer has access before God as he once had.

 

 

 

For the lurkers and anyone else that might be interested, here is a deconstruction of Ironhorse's latest example of his myopic, narrow and infantile theology.

 

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

~Job 1:6

 

 

 He quotes the Bible.  Always a good start for an apologist, except when it isn't.

 

...

The scripture does not say Satan entered Heaven but he came before God. His access was temporary, not permanent. 

...

 

There are many things this one sentence from the Bible does not say.  Apparently, this is significant.  The temporary/permanent distinction is a non-sequitur, i.e., it has nothing to do with the issue under discussion.  But, this is also apparently significant.

 

...

This is important in understanding. 

...

 

Yeah, just like I thought.  "This" is important.  But what is "this"?  The first sentence (whether Satan entered Heaven or not)?  The second sentence (temporary/permanent presence)?  "This" means one item, not two items.  If it were both sentences, linguist extraordinaire Ironhorse would have said, "Both of these are important in understanding."  Instead, he obviously means only one is important but the other is not important.  Which is which?

 

...

It is true that God's nature cannot tolerate sin in his presence so Satan's presence was before God not a full welcome and access to Heaven. 

...

 

This God seems to lack some attributes of omnipotence (ability to tolerate sin in its presence), but gee, omnipotence is the topic of this thread.  I don't want to digress into the topic of this thread.  And neither does Ironhorse.

 

So, this God cannot tolerate sin in his presence except when any of the following are present:

 

a)  Not in Heaven;

 Presence is not permanent; or

c)  Presence is not welcome by this God.

 

(Please excuse the triple negatives).

 

Which means this God can tolerate sin in his presence depending on the facts and circumstances.  Well, I guess that proves he is omnipotent.

 

...

Satan also came before Jesus in the wilderness to tempt him.

...

Another non sequitur afoot, folks.

 

...

This changed after Jesus was crucified and resurrected.

As Jesus was going to the cross He said the following: “Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.”

~John 12:31

...

 

Another sentence from the Bible,  Hot dog!  If this Satan character was not in Heaven before (when in the presence of this God - see above), where was he?  On Earth perhaps?  After all, what is "this world" in the Bible sentence?  Mars?

 

...

Satan is now bound to earth. 

...

Yeah, before this Jesus character could pretend to die, Satan could just travel between Heaven and Earth willy-nilly, except when in the presence of this God, when he couldn't, unless he was welcome, and only if it was temporary.  

 

...

He no longer has access before God as he once had.

 

 

 

The True Christian™ Ironhorse's interpretation.

 

To the lurkers:  Note the inconsistent, irrational and convoluted path Ironhorse has employed to apologize for his faith in a certain mythology.  Also notice that he hasn't really addressed the points and issues raised by the earlier posters.  Not one bit.  Pathetic, isn't it?

[Ravenstar]

I thought God was everywhere...?

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light,whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever."

 

"God lives in unapproachable light, Ironhorse."

 

 

I agree with you on this BAA. 

 

It is my understanding that this is referring to viewing the totality of God's being and essence. No person can see the completeness of God in one compressed image and live. I'm not sure my words express what I am trying to say.

 

No, Ironhorse.

In this you are correct.  Your words do not adequately express anything meaningful.  What's involved here is much less complicated than you believe it is.  But since you are trying to reconcile two irreconcilable pieces of scripture, no wonder you're tying yourself in knots.  

 

However, I will have mercy on you and explain how simple this really is.

 

 

Satan comes into god's immediate presence (twice) in the book of Job.

 

This happens in heaven and not on Earth and the god referred to is not Jesus, but God the Father.

 

Yet 1 Timothy 6 : 3 -16 tells us that God the Father cannot be approached. 

 

And 1 John 3 : 7 & 8 tells us that Satan sinned from the beginning.

 

This means that Satan became the personification of sin at the beginning, not at any later time.

 

So there was never a time when Satan could approach God the Father.

 

Which means that Job directly contradicts Timothy.

 

Which means that the Bible cannot be relied on.

 

Which means that you are in error to believe that the Bible is reliable, trustworthy and historically accurate, Ironhorse.

.

.

.

See how simple it really is?

.

.

.

Now, to head you off at the pass...

 

"I don't agree." ...isn't an adequate response from you on this.  Concede the point or argue it, don't just opt to disagree.

 

Nor is, "I believe (insert whatever)".   Concede the point or argue it, don't just opt to believe without justifying that belief.

 

Nor is quitting this thread, never to return and never mentioning it again.  You know that I won't let that happen!

 

 

Concede or argue, Ironhorse.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Good job of pointing out Bible contradictions about Satan in Job vs. NT, sdelsolray and BAA!

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 BAA and sdelsolray