mymistake Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 This question came up in chat. The answer is of course "NO!". We can measure the effects of real stuff. Supernatural stuff is exactly like imaginary stuff. Hope that helps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted February 28, 2015 Moderator Share Posted February 28, 2015 The thing that confuses me the greatest MM, is the fact that the human brain is real and that is where EVERYTHING happens.....our imaginations, our thoughts and perceptions....... The brain makes anything 'real' we want it to? ''It's all in the ''mind''?? Following this thread........ (hug) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 but the bible says the holy spirit is like the wnd gushing down during pentecost,,,,, surely the supernatural is like the wind 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 The thing that confuses me the greatest MM, is the fact that the human brain is real and that is where EVERYTHING happens.....our imaginations, our thoughts and perceptions....... The brain makes anything 'real' we want it to? ''It's all in the ''mind''?? Following this thread........ (hug) Each person's brain makes it real to them. Your brain creates your perception. Your perception is what you experience. I sometimes get auditory hallucinations when I am falling asleep or in a light sleep. I had one last night. I heard my daughter's voice call out so I got up to comfort her only to find her fast asleep. You see my brain knows what my daughter's voice sounds like so it can replay that in my head at any time. Think of it like how your brain generates a dream. You can have an incredible dream that is very complicated and seems to last a long time but it only lasts a few seconds. Your brain can toss all that stuff at you with no problem. That is why when I hear a noise at night I usually ask my wife if she heard it too. If she is awake and says she didn't hear it this is good evidence that it wasn't real. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The thing that confuses me the greatest MM, is the fact that the human brain is real and that is where EVERYTHING happens.....our imaginations, our thoughts and perceptions....... The brain makes anything 'real' we want it to? ''It's all in the ''mind''?? Following this thread........ (hug) I think this is a good point. It seems to me that something can be a real concept without actually being real (ie, without being empirical). Some such concepts can be applied usefully to the natural world, and some cannot. I don't actually agree with the notion that something which can't be analyzed or examined empirically is therefore "not real". It seems to me that, for example, numbers are not empirical objects, but are rather conceptual. Nevertheless, I do think that they are, at least in some sense, real. They are also imaginary. In my view, this makes mathematics a game of the mind which has applications in the natural world. But of course, not all imaginary objects have such applications. A unicorn, for example, is also an imaginary object. The difference is that while the idea of a unicorn might be useful if one is attempting to tell a fairy tale, its utility pretty much ends there. The trick lies in determining which imaginary objects are useful, and which are not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 We're getting a bit close to End3's, "Nothing is real unless I perceive it" ...aren't we? Ok, the brain makes our reality 'real' for us, but what made our brain? The external, pre-existing reality that made your brain cannot be a product of your brain. That would violate cause and effect. Also, it's that wider, greater reality that creates the conditions that allow our brains to continue existing. Sadly there are times when the external reality causes our brain-generated reality to come to an abrupt end. If you want a final and incontrovertible (and horrific) example of our brain's reality playing second fiddle to this greater reality, try thinking about those poor people under ground zero at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were vaporized in microseconds. Their brains ceased to exist before they had a chance to perceive that their 'reality' wasn't real any more. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 I would argue that reality and perception are very different things. One is objective and the other is subjective. How do we understand an objective reality through our subjective perception? By liberal use of verification. We ask others how they perceive things. That tells us if our perception isn't normal. We build devices that measure. We compare the results on one device with other similar devices. By comparing a large enough sample size we can see which devices are working and which are malfunctioning. The claim we are addressing here is that there are supernatural things that cannot be detected, do nothing that can be detected, yet they are real and possess all the properties they have when the pop into the mind of the person with the divine "revelation". That is why you can't measure God, you can't detect God but the believe knows with 100% certainty that God is male. No, that is the pattern of imagining a character. If I imagine McBob, the God of plaid, then I can assert McBob has any trait yet McBob will always be undetectable. McBob never affects our universe beyond the way literature affects humans. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Ok, the brain makes our reality 'real' for us, but what made our brain? The external, pre-existing reality that made your brain cannot be a product of your brain. That would violate cause and effect. Yes indeed, but how do we know about the law of cause and effect? It is apparent to us via our interactions with the natural world and via our reason, but in both cases our awareness of this law is dependent on our brain. How can we safely say that the law of cause and effect exists beyond our minds? Further, how can we say that reality itself exists beyond our minds? Solipsism is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. It isn't particularly useful, but it isn't inconsistent either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 The supernatural is not like the wind at all, from my experience. For example, breaking wind. It's all hot air until a chunk comes out. When a chunk comes out, it gets real. So far no one has a produced a chunk of Christianity at all. It's all hot air. ETA, I wish Brother Jeff was here! Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Ok, the brain makes our reality 'real' for us, but what made our brain? The external, pre-existing reality that made your brain cannot be a product of your brain. That would violate cause and effect. Yes indeed, but how do we know about the law of cause and effect? It is apparent to us via our interactions with the natural world and via our reason, but in both cases our awareness of this law is dependent on our brain. How can we safely say that the law of cause and effect exists beyond our minds? Further, how can we say that reality itself exists beyond our minds? Solipsism is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. It isn't particularly useful, but it isn't inconsistent either. I have to admit I don't have a good response to this. When I took Philosophy 101 the brain in a vat dilemma vexed me. The best solution I could come up with is "in that direction lies madness" and in my opinion that isn't very satisfying. Can you think of anything better? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Ok, the brain makes our reality 'real' for us, but what made our brain? The external, pre-existing reality that made your brain cannot be a product of your brain. That would violate cause and effect. Yes indeed, but how do we know about the law of cause and effect? It is apparent to us via our interactions with the natural world and via our reason, but in both cases our awareness of this law is dependent on our brain. How can we safely say that the law of cause and effect exists beyond our minds? Further, how can we say that reality itself exists beyond our minds? Solipsism is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. It isn't particularly useful, but it isn't inconsistent either. Oops! Sorry for not replying sooner, Disillusioned. Yes, I do see what you're saying. That we can only know about cause and effect via our perceptions, putting us back at square one. As you say, unfalsifiable. I'm sorry to say that I know of no way to stop this particular serpent from swallowing it's own tail! Thanks, BAA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Ok, the brain makes our reality 'real' for us, but what made our brain? The external, pre-existing reality that made your brain cannot be a product of your brain. That would violate cause and effect. Yes indeed, but how do we know about the law of cause and effect? It is apparent to us via our interactions with the natural world and via our reason, but in both cases our awareness of this law is dependent on our brain. How can we safely say that the law of cause and effect exists beyond our minds? Further, how can we say that reality itself exists beyond our minds? Solipsism is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. It isn't particularly useful, but it isn't inconsistent either. I have to admit I don't have a good response to this. When I took Philosophy 101 the brain in a vat dilemma vexed me. The best solution I could come up with is "in that direction lies madness" and in my opinion that isn't very satisfying. Can you think of anything better? I tend to agree with you that "in that direction lies madness". The nature of logic is that certain things must be taken as axiomatically true. We need to start somewhere. We can, for example, say that we assume that the natural world exists. We can then conduct inquiries based on this assumption, and if everything works well (which it seems to) then we will have no need to discard our assumption. One can, of course, take the opposite view, but it doesn't seem to me to be very helpful to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 "Is The Supernatural Like The Wind?" No. The wind is an identifiable, measurable and explainable phenomena existing in reality. The supernatural is an imaginary construct residing in the brains of certain sentient beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 "Is The Supernatural Like The Wind?" The answer is a resounding, 'No!'. Supernatural is Dean and Sam Winchester cruisin' to places to take some shit down, yo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOutsider Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 "Is The Supernatural Like The Wind?"The answer is a resounding, 'No!'. Supernatural is Dean and Sam Winchester cruisin' to places to take some shit down, yo! Damn straight! Though, if there's a Kansas concert going on during a windy day, I'm not sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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