An Invitation To Any Christians To Learn About Cosmology

[bornagainathiest]

To the Christian members of this forum,

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Greetings and welcome to this thread.

Please take a moment to think about the question, "Where does everything come from?"  Every generation ponders this question, but for most of human history we have had no way of finding out about our origins for ourselves.  Ancient societies usually opted to believe what their sacred scriptures told them about their origins. Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3 being a classic example of this approach.

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"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."

"This is what the ancients were commended for."

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what is visible."

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But we no longer live in ancient times.

Nor are we limited to only what our eyes can tell us.  Nor are we limited to only what a sacred text might tell us about the origin of the cosmos.  Nor are we limited to doing as our ancestors did - understanding their place in the universe only by faith.  We can now know and understand the universe for ourselves by directly investigating it with telescopes, satellites, computers and math. Instead of having to rely solely on faith, we now possess knowledge, facts and evidence.  As computer-savvy 21st century people with easy access to the Internet we can now reap the full benefit of centuries of scientific investigation into our cosmic origins.  It's all there for us. 

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But if you find the science baffling and/or intimidating, then please take this message to heart. 

You don't have to do this alone.  We are here to help you.  All you need to do is to keep an open mind and to give our words a fair hearing.  We will be pleased to answer your questions and to try to explain whatever needs explaining.  Our prime aim is to foster and enhance your understanding of cosmology - the science of the origin of the cosmos. 

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It's therefore my pleasure to make you this offer.

I offer to share with you my knowledge, to help you grasp the basics of cosmological science, so that you can understand more of what has been discovered about the cosmos.  Two members of this forum who are scientists, Bhim (an astrophysicist) and the RogueScholar (who understands how quantum theory underpins the chemical sciences) have kindly agreed to assist.   If you would like to take up this offer and participate in this thread, then here is a list of the necessary points we would need to cover.

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 * How to understand and use the basic principles of cosmology properly.

 * Why we can have confidence in what cosmology tells us about the cosmos.

 * Why the observable universe (all we can see) is not all of the cosmos.

 * What we can infer about the unobservable cosmos (what we cannot see).

 * Why the Big Bang is a small part of an on-going process and not just a single event.

 * How we (down here on planet Earth) fit into the entire picture.

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Please note that this offer is solely concerned with tuition about the science of mainstream cosmology.  

We would kindly ask you to note that we (Bhim, the RogueScholar and myself) do not wish to engage in debate in this thread - only in tuition.  Therefore non-standard cosmologies will not be discussed or debated by us here.  Other threads can be devoted to such debates if need be.  Please also note that our offer concerns only science and will not cover any aspect of theology, philosophy or religion. Again, other threads can be devoted to these separate matters. Please respect these guidelines.

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If you are a Christian and would like to take advantage of this offer, please indicate your agreement with a short message.  

Thank you for reading this invitation and once again, welcome.

 

 

 

BAA.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

Thanks for the invitiation, i been asking for a psot like this for the past 3months lol

 

lets keep it light so that we dont over run each other with massive amounts of information, i am humbled at your knowledge of the subject BAA

 

so my questiosn are not to debate but to discuss....Debating is abotu WHO is right, duscussing is about WHAT is right.

 

first question.....is the physical laws, or the laws of nature immutable? in other words are they unchangable or have ever BEEN changed in the past? this question is in relation to cosmology because if the laws of nature can change i wonder if it did change the beginning of the universe or if it made an impact on the universe begian and evovled and if it will the laws of nature ever change again in the future and why not?

 

Thanks again for your kind invitation

[mymistake]

 

 

 

lets keep it light so that we dont over run each other with massive amounts of information, i am humbled at your knowledge of the subject BAA

 

so my questiosn are not to debate but to discuss....Debating is abotu WHO is right, duscussing is about WHAT is right.

 

first question.....

 

 

How about you let the experts direct the conversation and limit your questions to asking for clarification when you get confused.

[Avandris]

Not sure what I'm classifying myself as these days, but I'm always interested to learn and will definitely be following this thread. Am I allowed to participate?

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

 

 

 

 

lets keep it light so that we dont over run each other with massive amounts of information, i am humbled at your knowledge of the subject BAA

 

so my questiosn are not to debate but to discuss....Debating is abotu WHO is right, duscussing is about WHAT is right.

 

first question.....

 

 

How about you let the experts direct the conversation and limit your questions to asking for clarification when you get confused.

 

 

i was severly mistaken then i was told this was an invitation FOR me to ask questions? i cant?

[Bhim]

i was severly mistaken then i was told this was an invitation FOR me to ask questions? i cant?

I'm glad you asked.  I envision the thread that BAA, RogueScholar and I will be starting as an introduction to cosmology at a level accessible to those who do not have an undergraduate science education.  Obviously we won't be teaching a full-fledged course since the preparation time for this requires teaching to be one's full time job.  However we will be following the standard presentation used by most astrophysics and cosmology instructors, which one could loosely think of as a "curriculum."  As far as I'm concerned, questions are encouraged.  But just as you wouldn't ask your English Literature professor how you should go about solving systems of linear differential equations, we do ask that questions be relevant to the information we are attempting to convey to you.  Questions to the effect of "what role does God play in all of this?" no matter how subtly stated, are not relevant and we would rather not address them.  I only knew one Christian astrophysics professor when I was in graduate school, and even he did not address questions of religion in either his teaching or his federally-funded research.  So I think this is a reasonable restriction.

 

This is a forum about religion, and of course we are not generally trying to avoid discussions about Jesus, the Bible, etc.  However, we find that the Christian posters on this forum tend to be lacking in their knowledge of the science of cosmology.  Thus we seek to give you a more firm grounding in this topic so that all of us can have more productive conversations on the intersection of science and evangelical Christianity.

[mymistake]

 

i was severly mistaken then i was told this was an invitation FOR me to ask questions? i cant?

 

 

 

Ultimately that is for BAA, RS and Bhim to decide which questions are relevant.  All I am asking is that you not derail the thread with off the wall questions.  BAA has something in mind.  Give him a chance to lay it out there.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

i misunderstood is all, this thread that adheres similar to a class teaching, oh ok. no problem i understand now. Well i await the lesson then been studying Eistein and some new secular scientists have been disagreeing with Eisteins theory despite its proven theory and uncontested for hundreds of years, but then again we all know that it would be a genetic fallacy to say that TIME is contingent upon truth alone. lol

 

in anycase i await the lesson and will adhere to the guidelines i simply misunderstood initially, i apologize

[bornagainathiest]

i misunderstood is all, this thread that adheres similar to a class teaching, oh ok. no problem i understand now. Well i await the lesson then been studying Eistein and some new secular scientists have been disagreeing with Eisteins theory despite its proven theory and uncontested for hundreds of years, but then again we all know that it would be a genetic fallacy to say that TIME is contingent upon truth alone. lol

 

in anycase i await the lesson and will adhere to the guidelines i simply misunderstood initially, i apologize

 

Don't fret, A1.

 

Of course you'll be able to ask questions and we'll do our best to answer them.

But first and foremost, we'll be fielding questions that relate to what we're teaching.  So if you can keep your questions relevant, that'd be great.  Other questions that crop up (which don't directly relate to our tuition) can be dealt with a later time or perhaps in another thread.

 

If you want to get a better idea of what we've got in mind, I answered a question from Fweethat earlier today, in this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/67115-an-invitation-to-baa-and-friends/#.VPsoqfmsUuk ...in post # 6.  

 

We'll start with the basics and then go on from there.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Fweethawt]

Taking the "rules" of the coming thread a bit further -- how about starting a secondary, unofficial cosmology thread whereupon questions and comments found to be unrelated and irrelevant can be moved by a mod.

 

Doing so would keep the primary thread streamlined and less chaotic.

[bornagainathiest]

Not sure what I'm classifying myself as these days, but I'm always interested to learn and will definitely be following this thread. Am I allowed to participate?

 

Of course, Avandris.

 

Ok, the invitation was for the Christians in this forum, but all members are welcome and can participate.  

If you take a look at post # 9 of this thread (and check out the link) you'll see how we'd like this tutorial thread to run.  Questions, contributions and participation are fine, but we'd appreciate it if those involved keep their posts relevant to what's being covered at any given time.  

 

So, if next week we're looking at how cosmologists analyze CMB (Cosmic Microwave Background) radiation, then questions about black holes really aren't relevant and will just gum up the flow of things.  I suppose you could call what we're looking for as, 'relevant participation'.  That sound ok to you?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Taking the "rules" of the coming thread a bit further -- how about starting a secondary, unofficial cosmology thread whereupon questions and comments found to be unrelated and irrelevant can be moved by a mod.

 

Doing so would keep the primary thread streamlined and less chaotic.

 

Interesting idea, Fwee!

 

Bhim, RS and myself will probably have our hands full when things get underway.

So anything that can ease our workload has got to be a good idea... providing it can be made to work.  For it to work, we'd need a Moderator to take a 'hand's on' approach and liaise with us as to what is relevant and what isn't, weeding out that which doesn't make the cut.  Now, seeing as I'm already busy preparing for Monday, I'm now going to pull a judo trick on you!

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Because this is your idea, why don't you talk with the Mods about it and see if they'll go with it?  

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Thanks,

 

BAA

[mymistake]

Or just do it manually by ignoring the question in the main thread and copying it to the distraction thread.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 As computer-savvy 21st century people with easy access to the Internet we can now reap the full benefit of centuries of scientific investigation into our cosmic origins.  It's all there for us. 

 

Isn't that just marvellous?  I am so glad I live at this time, as opposed to in the past.

 

I'm really looking forward to this tuition.  Thanks guys.

[Fweethawt]

Because this is your idea, why don't you talk with the Mods about it and see if they'll go with it?

I will.

[Fweethawt]

 

Because this is your idea, why don't you talk with the Mods about it and see if they'll go with it?

I will.

PM with request sent to Webmdave, Florduh and SkipNchurch

[Fweethawt]

BAA,

 

SkipNchurch reserved a spot in the Arena for your Cosmology thread. I'm guessing it'll be easier to keep on topic in there. From the limited instructions he sent me, via PM, I'm assuming you can just use the 'Reserved Spot For Fwee' thread that he put in there to start. Then a Mod will step in and change the thread titles accordingly to match your choice. The other thread 'Peanut Gallery' in the Arena is a space to move non-pertinent or irrelevant posts made within your main thread.

 

Let me or Skip know if this will work for you guys.

 

We're looking forward to this getting started.

 

 

Btw, where are you?!?!?! Today is Monday!!!!!!!!!111111one0newunn111! Ha-Ha!

[RogueScholar]

This is a wonderful idea and perhaps more productive in terms of honest dialogue about the universe and the "story" of what we "know" about the universe. I am flattered that BAA and Bhim feel I may have something to offer here. Unfortunately, my background is not in cosmology or astronomy, but I am certainly happy to help explain certain concepts and enable productive dialogue where I can. I'm certainly ready to follow BAA's and Bhim's lead.

[bornagainathiest]

Hello and welcome to this tutorial about cosmology - the science of understanding the universe.

 

It's my hope that this opening post and this thread in general will be of help to anyone wishing to understand more about the origin and workings of the cosmos.  Bhim, the Roguescholar and myself will be happy to field your questions.  If I've been remiss and left anything out I'm sure they'll spot it and fill in the gaps or correct me accordingly.  

 

Today we will begin with the one of the most basic and fundamental rules of cosmology - the Copernican principle.  

Before we can properly understand what this principle is and how it's used, we first need to see why the Copernican Revolution occurred.  This means going back in European history to a time of intellectual and religious crisis.  

 

During the Renaissance period (14th to 17th centuries) there was a growing crisis in astronomical science.
A crisis that needed resolving.  A crisis of disagreement between theory and observation.  Between what was believed to be true and what actually appeared to be true.  Something in the skies was very, very wrong! 

 

Since ancient times it had been accepted that the Earth was fixed, static and immobile, while the Sun, the Moon and the planets all revolved around it.  This prevailing geocentric (Earth-centered) cosmology was accepted by the Christian church and had become part of official dogma.  Up to this time what was known about the universe could be (more or less) easily reconciled with the Bible and with Christian theology.  But increasingly precise measurements of the orbits of the planets by astronomers were casting doubt on the truth of the geocentric system.  What was being observed did not agree with the accepted explanation, causing a crisis that needed a resolution.

So what were the planets doing that was causing so much trouble?
Well, it's not what they were actually doing, it's what they appeared to do that was the problem.  Instead of smoothly proceeding in their orbits around the Earth, they seemed to reverse their motion and travel backwards in a loop, before resuming their original direction of travel.  The worst offender was the planet Mars.  This Wiki page animation helps illustrate the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_Revolution



On the left is the heliocentric (Sun-centered) view of the solar system, with the Earth (blue) and Mars (red) orbiting the Sun (yellow).  
On the right is the geocentric (Earth-centered) view, with the Sun and Mars orbiting the Earth.  In the geocentric system, astronomers on Earth will see Mars appears to make a loop once every orbit.  Like this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_retrograde_motion




Now, please note that Mars doesn't actually travel in vast loops across the sky.  
It only appears to, when seen from the Earth.  This is a vast optical illusion caused of the difference in orbital speeds between our planet and Mars.  We occupy a smaller and faster orbit then Mars, taking about 365 days to go round the Sun, as opposed to 686 days for the red planet.  Therefore our greater speed allows us to overtake it as we go round.  From our p.o.v. Mars appears to slow down in it's orbit, stop, go backwards and then go forwards again.  This is nicely illustrated, here...



To see for yourself how this works, trace the blue lines from Earth to Mars, going from A thru G.
Everything seems ok until C, when Mars seems to stop moving forward. In D it's moving backwards, in E it comes to a stop again and in F, it's going along properly once more, just as if nothing was wrong.  

The problem of Mars' loopy orbit was solved by moving the Earth from the center of the solar system and putting the Sun there.  Suddenly everything fell into place.  The orbits of the planets no longer required untidy loops and the behavior of Mars was explained as nothing more than an optical illusion.  Please compare the above heliocentric (Sun-centered) diagram in the above, 'Retrograde Motion' diagram to the Wiki animation at top left.  

 

THEY ARE THE SAME.  

THIS MEANS THAT THE CORRECT SOLUTION IS ALSO... THE TRUTH.

THIS MEANS THAT THE INCORRECT BELIEF PROMOTED BY THE CHURCH... COULD NOT BE TRUE.

 

The problem wasn't being caused by Mars or anything else in the sky.
The problem was being caused by the unquestioned assumption that everything went around the Earth.  By dropping that assumption astronomers could make sense of how the universe worked.  The fault didn't lie with their observations and measurements, the fault lay in the prevailing view that the Earth was at the center of all things.

This realization now presented the astronomers with a difficult question.
Which body of information correctly described how the universe worked?  The new Sun-centered system or the old Earth-centered system? Should they continue to put their confidence in the traditional, Church-endorsed view - which failed to explain what they were seeing?  Or should they abandon it in favor of the new paradigm - which did explain what they were seeing?  Which one of these two options was true?  The one guided by faith or the one guided by observation?  

This difficult question was not easily or quickly answered.
But a key technological advance provided further observational evidence that the Sun-centered solar system was the correct (and therefore true) option.  Galilieo Galilei's use of the telescope opened up the night skies to a new level of observation and scrutiny.  Before then ALL astronomy, was strictly naked eye astronomy.  If something couldn't be seen by eye then the human race had absolutely no knowledge of it whatsoever.  This explains why, before the invention of the telescope, nobody knew of the moons of Mars, the rings of Saturn or of the planet Neptune.  None of these things could be seen without the magnifying power of the telescope. 

 

Until 1610, when Galileo trained his telescope on the planet Venus it had only ever been a bright point of light in the sky. By careful observation Galileo discovered that Venus wasn't just a shining pinpoint of light, similar to a star.  He found that as it moved thru the sky it showed phases, just like our Moon.  It waxed and waned; from New, thru First Quarter, Full, last Quarter and back to New.  He noted that Venus' phases were linked to it's position relative to the Sun.  So there could only be only one possible conclusion that made sense.  The Sun's light was falling on Venus, just as it fell on our Moon, causing it to wax and wane, just as our Moon does.  It meant that Venus orbited the Sun, not the Earth!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei  

 

The diagram below shows the phases of Venus, as would have been observed by Galilieo.

 

Further evidence against the Earth-centered view was discovered when Galileo observed the planet Jupiter. 

Like Venus, for all of human history, Jupiter was just a star-like object in the night sky.  But Galileo found that like Venus and like our Moon Jupiter displayed a visible disk.  More significantly, he noticed that it was flanked by four bright objects that changed position relative to it, from night to night.  By carefully recording these changes he was able to deduce that Jupiter was being orbited by four moons.  This observation flew in the face of the received wisdom of that time.  According to the Church-endorsed geocentric view, everything in the sky revolved around the Earth.  The Sun, the Moon and the planets - ALL of them orbited us.  Nothing else was supposed to orbit anything else but the Earth!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean_moons

 

Yet here, with the moons of Jupiter, was clear evidence that this was not so.

The traditional certainties were crumbling in the face of new observations and new evidence - precipitating a crisis over what really constituted the truth.  Was the truth of reality (the faith-based dogma of the Christian church) to be passively received and accepted without question?  Or was the truth of reality open to question?  Could it be discovered by observation, analysis and rational understanding?  As more and more astronomers began using better and better telescopes to probe the skies, the weight of evidence shifted more and more away from the former and towards the latter.

 

This fundamental change in human thought is now known as the Copernican Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_Revolution

 

As the pace of scientific investigation quickened, more evidence flooded in to confirm the Copernican view of reality.  By the middle of the 20th century telescopic observations and measurements of the skies revealed that our place in the universe is in no way anything special, privileged or out of the ordinary.  We now know that stars like our Sun, planetary systems like ours and galaxies like the Milky Way are commonplace throughout the universe.  That the Earth is made of the same chemical elements as other planets and stars and these elements are just the same, wherever you look in the universe.  This overwhelming body of evidence has helped establish what is known in cosmology as the Copernican Principle.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_principle

 

Hopefully this post will have given you an adequate understanding of the origins of the Copernican principle.  

But rather than just proceed on that assumption I'm now going to bring my post to a close and open this thread up to any questions arising from it or relating to it.  

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

BAA,

 

SkipNchurch reserved a spot in the Arena for your Cosmology thread. I'm guessing it'll be easier to keep on topic in there. From the limited instructions he sent me, via PM, I'm assuming you can just use the 'Reserved Spot For Fwee' thread that he put in there to start. Then a Mod will step in and change the thread titles accordingly to match your choice. The other thread 'Peanut Gallery' in the Arena is a space to move non-pertinent or irrelevant posts made within your main thread.

 

Let me or Skip know if this will work for you guys.

 

We're looking forward to this getting started.

 

 

Btw, where are you?!?!?! Today is Monday!!!!!!!!!111111one0newunn111! Ha-Ha!

 

Good work, Fwee..!

 

I appreciate your efforts and I'm sure that Bhim and RS do too.  

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Now it's time for me to fess up!

I was so tightly focused on getting the first tutorial post 'just right' that I totally overlooked your instructions and just downloaded it right into this thread.  Ooops!

 

Ummm... I can re-post to the Arena (but not right now) or let the post be moved by the Mods as they see fit.

Can't do the job now (life intervenes!) but can probably do it some time tomorrow.

 

Anyway, thanks again to you and my thanks also to SkipNchurch for the helpful arrangements!

 

Bye!

 

BAA.

[Ravenstar]

very simple explanation. love it.

[Bhim]

Thank you for getting the ball rolling BAA, and for an excellent outline of early solar system astronomy.  It's important to know where we've come from to know where we're going.  Others would benefit greatly from reading your post profusely, whether they are ex-Christian or currently Christian.

 

Anyway, BAA are in communication regarding the outline of this tutorial on Cosmology.  This is his show to run, although I will be contributing lessons as requested.

[Guest end3]

Good job BAA. So far so good. Thx.

[Fweethawt]

BAA,

 

Come up with a thread title, then we can move this into the Arena. Unless you want it in the Den?

 

To, FTNZ, you almost got it! The peanut gallery thread is for side comments or posts made that detract from the main material. Any type of questions directly related to the material that are made with an honest sense of inquiry should be posted in the main thread.

 

Think of it like a classroom. Direct questions are all the teachers want to hear and are interested in. They couldn't care less if anyone thinks the big bang was a beautiful event. But they would probably be happy to hear about that sort of thing AFTER class. Or in this case, the peanut gallery thread.

 

Make sense?

 

On topic comments/questions - main thread

On topic opinions/awestruckness - peanut gallery

Fundy gibberish - peanut gallery

 

Easy enough?

 

By sometime tomorrow, I'm guessing these two threads will be flowing nicely in the Arena unless BAA and friends prefer otherwise.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Cool, makes sense Fwee.