Insightful Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Hey everyone, I'm just needing some encouragement today. It's been a hard week. I've shared a bit before, but, bascially, my marriage and my oldest adopted daughter (almost 9 yrs old) are both in really bad shape because of the person I once was. This week has felt particularly painful. Christianity taught me that the misbehavior in my children is because of their sin - that they were, in fact, born sinful. Born objects of God's wrath. Deserving of eternal punishment. I was taught that GOOD parents, GODLY parents, faithfully spank their children to teach them to stop sinning. "Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him" (Prov. 13:24) Well, if you take the Bible seriously, and if you don't want to hate your child, then you use "the rod". For those who argue that "the rod" is a shepherd's rod used to gently guide your child, then read this: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die." (Prov. 23:13). So "the rod" is cleary meant to hit with. The Bible even stresses that it is this faithful beating-with-a-rod that will SAVE THEIR SOULS FROM HELL (or Sheol). "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, And shalt deliver his soul from hell." (Prov 23:14). What good parent wants their child to go to hell??! (this is a classic example of how religion makes good people do evil things). The first time I called my pastor for parenting help, he told me: "You need to break her will." (essentially, beat her until she submits). Adopted children are inherently traumatized. Being an "unwanted" pregnancy is traumatic. Being abandoned at 4 days old by your birthmother is traumatic. Being neglected in a government orphanage isn't only traumatic - it teaches you that you are not important, that your needs don't matter, and that the world is not a safe place. So it should be a given that adopted kids are going to have atypical behaviors - anxiety, insecurity, impulsivity, poor coping skills. Now add that child with that background to a family that thinks about sin and punishment and hell the way I described above and you get the PERFECT STORM. You get hell-on-earth. The hyperauthoritarian, "obey-or-I'll-beat-you-until-you-do because I'm seriously afraid you'll go to hell if I don't" clashes with the broken psyche of a wounded child who is thinking "I need to feel safe and loved, I need you to stay and comfort me, and love me; but I'm so scared you'll leave me too, so I act weird and disobey a lot and freak out." That leads to a horribly vicious cylce of poor behavior due to trauma and fear => misunderstanding of that behavior as sin => spanking to "try to save soul" => more fear and worse behavior on the part of the child => more intense spanking on the part of the parent... Can you see where this ends up?? It ends up with Hana Williams, the Ethiopian adoptee killed by her Christian adoptive parents because of extreme discipline measures. So after 4.5 years of that sick cylce, I finally started to see the light. That the poor behavior wasn't sin. It was a normal response to the trauma this little girl had experienced. And my attempts to help "save her soul" were just making things worse - much much worse. This realization was the beginning of the end of my faith. My Christian worldview was failing. Rather than help me be a better father, it led me to be a terrible father. So now I've got an 8 year old who is struggling INTENSELY psychologically. Is it any wonder? She is depressed, anxious, self-harming, super defiant, unable to concentrate, falls apart emotionally... I am so scared for her future. I fear she will kill herself one day based on her current trajectory. It is SO difficult to parent her. But I love her like crazy. I know that I am chiefly responsible for her poor psychological health. That is a constant source of crippling emotional pain for me. I have SO much regret for how I parented her, for how much confusion and fear and anxiety I caused her. How I deepened her emotional wounds rather than healed them. How messed up she is because of ME. But I know now that I was ultimately brainwashed. I believed it all 110%. Even though I was the one causing her harm, I feel like a victim too - a victim of very harmful ideology. I have flash backs to spanking her when she was afraid to stay in her room alone at night. How could I have been such an a==hole? She and I both bear the scars. Regarding marriage, Christianity taught me that wives are to be subject to their husbands. To submit. To obey. "For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord." (I Pet 3:5). It also taught me that women are gullible - easily deceived - and that they exist to please and serve their husbands. "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." (I TIm 2:11-13). And: "They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires" (2 Tim 3:5; doesn't say ALL women are gullible, but it paints a negative picture of women). So, I expected my wife to go along with my leadership. To submit and obey. I sought "God's will" for my family and said that's what we needed to do. End of discussion. I was the MAN, the leader. If she had worries or fears, it was just because she was a weak woman or didn't understand God's will for our family... Imagine what 13 years of relating like that can do to a relationship. So, now we are quite strained. She feels little affection for me. I understand. The difficult thing is that, though we both want to make it work, she carries forward many years of emotional hurts from our relationship that are not easily forgotten. Plus, my old patterns and ways of thinking still resurface. It's hard to pull out all of the roots that are so deeply hardwired (to mix metaphors). In fairness, I understand that it's not entirely Christianity's fault. Maybe I'm just a jerk who likes authority and expects everyone to do what I say. But if so, how sad is it that religion reinforced that rather than confronted it and reshaped it? Being with my family is so painful. Everyday, the brokenness (my marriage, my daughter) surfaces in some ugly way and I am confronted with the ugly mess Christiainity has left in my life. We are in counseling and it is helpful. The difficulty is that my wife still believes the Bible is 100% true. So she resents me for my agnosticism. Ironically, she was the one who first felt like something was wrong with our parenting. Ironically, she is the one who's hated being expected to obey and submit and being considered as gullible / less wise. Ironic because that IS what the Bible teaches. So she redefines her Christianity to suit her shifting views: quoting verses such as "live with your wives in an understanding way". And explaining how gracious parenting is ultimately more Christian. She is right: you CAN read the Bible and find verses that promote compassion, grace, and understanding. But you can also read the same book and find the verses I already quoted that teach that women are gullible and children must be beaten. It feels like the Christian will win the argument either way by choosing the verse that supports the point they want to make... I guess I just needed to vent a bit. And to hear from anyone who's chosen to stay with the family they love even though it continuously dredges up the pain of damaged relationships - pain caused by the faith you once had. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Fuck Christianity and it's harmful ways steeped in pride and ignorance! It's tough for those of us married to spouses who are still believers because your fundamental perspectives on life can completely flip and the thing is, you'll find you're more forgiving and accepting of people and the spouse still believes in sin and judgement and all those things. Shit it just sucks... I'm in a rush now, but we're here, listening. I'll try to revisit this again this evening. Get it out man, venting is good medicine - especially with and for those who can relate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Welcome Insightful. You have a long road ahead of you. Have you sad down with each of them and told them that you have realized your old behavior is bad? If not do so. Tell them that you have realized you were going the wrong way and things are going to be different. Essentially you were a hard nose alpha male who now has to learn how to become a liberal beta. Books I recommend: When Anger Hurts When Anger Hurts Your Kids About your daughter - what method does she use to self harm? Does she cut? Something else? My experience with self harm was with the belt. I choose the belt specifically because it was how I was spanked as a child. I used it because the physical pain would silence the emotional pain. You might need to take your daughter to a professional. I would recommend somebody who does not affiliate with religion. Avoid the ones who put Jesus in their advertisement. The wife will be tricky. Is she still attracted to you? How strongly does the religious propaganda grip her? By that I mean her pastor telling her crap like "An unequally yoked marriage can never work". My marriage survived my wife learning that I deconverted so success is possible. But largely this will rest on your wife's character. Obviously you will need to do anything you can to up your game to demonstrate you are still a viable spouse. For example, my wife was worried that my sudden loss of religion would mean I was going to cheat on her. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Brother, I am so sad with you. I wish I could be with you and let you unwind. I wish I could babysit your daughter for a few hours and do something fun, so that you and her could have a break. Every day is a new day, and regrets do not motivate us to face forward to the future with hope and courage. You certainly need to learn the lessons of the past, but you are not the same person you were, and she will not be the same person she is today. I'm not a parent, so I can't hope to give you advice, but surely the best advice will involve her forgiving you and you forgiving yourself. You and your wife can also soften towards each other.h Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yunea Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 What strikes me here is that you're owning up to these things, taking responsibility and regretting honestly. That takes a lot of courage and my figurative hat goes off for you for that alone. So many people are too scared to admit they have done wrong in the name of love. I am glad you go to counseling, it might help for each of you to see a counselor alone too if you are not doing so already. I don't have much other advice but my heart goes out to you and your family. Hopefully your wife will get her thoughts sorted out, a crisis of faith is so different between individuals and seeing you change, simply change even if it's for much better, may be difficult to handle too. That's human nature. Keep writing if you can and if you find it helps at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Wow man. That is craziness...but you know what, you are on the road of healing and freedom...and it is never too late to take the right turn. I guess this is what true repentance is even though I don't like that term anymore. Now, even though you read in those verses the things you explained it really is a thing of interpretation. Some see in them that you need to literally beat your child and others see it more like you need to guide them strongly. Some argue that the original word that is used for beating actually means to parent. So they say it is unloving not to parent...which is true I would say. Don't blame your wife for seeing things different. Christianity in itself is so undefined...just think about all the denominations and how each thinks they have found the true way of how to serve God. Also, as an adopted child I can relate to what you have said. There is post traumatic stress that needs to be addressed with a psychologist who has experience with it. Especially with complex PTSD. Something I have to deal with now...and I am 37. My parents never beat me but they also did not give me the attention I actually needed which is not just my own feeling but has been confirmed to me just recently by neighbors...and I did not ask them to, they just wanted to tell me what they observed. I remember once my mom even said she wanted to give me more attention and how I felt so hopeful that things would be changing. But they did not...because she never really understood what that actually meant. And my struggles continued and they continued to go unnoticed. Then I have ADD. Because I was the hypoactive type, the one that is daydreaming...and besides failing in school and not being able to keep my room cleaned up I bothered no one, so no one really cared. But I got shunned for my shortcomings. I got called lazy, moralizing, too sensitive, always wanting to be right, always having the need to have the last word etc. All my childhood I felt deeply misunderstood and nothing I did was ever right. Looking back and finally having my diagnosis it all makes so much sense. With ADD I got blamed for ALL the ADD behavior I could not really steer... I even got my own alarm clock so I would be responsible to get to school myself and my mom could not be blamed for me being late...at age 9...emotionally behind my age anyways... Do some research on ADD and PTSD for your daughter and see if you can find a psychologist who is trained in both. It is not uncommon for children with a difficult background to be ADD. And hey, she is 9! Even though she has had a troubled life so far, there is still a lot you can do. And I mean A LOT. Also know, she might be three to five years behind in her emotional development. So there is really a lot you can do still. And the most important is to let her know how much you love her and that you care about her. She will see how you change and that change is all she probably wishes to happen. I remember how much I wished my parents to change the way you describe it. And if it was just one of them. Children, even adopted children, love their care givers. They want their caregivers to be happy and well and to love them back. Really. (Coming from a girl who has spent her first three years at seven different places, foster families and day care, going back and forth between grandparents, parents of my birthmoms boyfriend, and foster care...until I came into my adopting family at age four and lived there as a foster child until the adoption was complete at age eight...also I have four brothers who are all younger than me and they are the biological children of my adopting parents). You are a good person! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted March 7, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 7, 2015 Insightful, I'm glad you're here and I am glad you shared this story...as sad as it is. That's is what Ex-c is all about. One thing is wonderful and that is how aware you are of this whole situation. That is such a good beginning to conquering the family problems. It is only when one becomes aware of the consequences of actions, can one start to change things. Please don't completely blame yourself. You were doing what you thought was the right thing. So now you can unravel the situation, one thing at a time. You can openly talk about everything. Reassure your wife that you will be a good husband regardless of what you believe or don't believe. Everyone just wants to feel safe. First, make yourself feel safe by posting here and then the gang here at Ex-c will help direct you with all their words of wisdom. Stay close to us right now and just continue loving the best way you know how. You have already received so many good responses to this post. Do something fun with them everyday. Make sure its fun for you also. Laughter and having fun is the best medicine in the world. We probably can all relate to you in other ways even though our stories are a bit different. We know one thing for sure...christianity has fucked up a lot of people and families. You wont be fucked up about christianity anymore and then you can help your own family in a kind, gentle way. I am hoping for the very best for you and your family. Hug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 When my child was a baby, I loved him sooooo much (still do). I held him, played with him, read to him, and just looked at him endlessly. Then the Christian indoctrination kicked in and I began to think I was not being stern enough, kind of what you described based on the various Bible passages. So I had a private conversation with my Christian mother and told her of my concerns. I explained that I was afraid I was spoiling my son and that I wasn't being strict or stern enough. My dear wise mother looked at me, smiled, and said, "Son, you can never love your child too much. You are doing fine. Let your love for him be your guide." Once Mom said that, I never looked back and continued with my ways. I simply disregarded those Bible passages that guided you and did what love directed me to do. One thing I particularly noticed was though she remained a devout Christian until the day she died, her guidance to me included absolutely no Bible verses. Of course, my mom was a little rebellious as a Christian. I remember when I was a child and the sermon at church had to do with original sin, my mother saying, "No matter what the Bible or the preacher say, no one will ever convince me that an innocent little baby is a sinful person." I think it was that thinking on her part that guided her words to me. Yes, as you say, your love for your daughter was informed by certain harsh Bible verses. Now you can disregard that Bronze Age ridiculousness and, as my mother said, let the love that naturally flows from your heart be your guidance both in how you now relate to your daughter and your wife. I hope everything works out well for you and your family! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 You see the problem for what it is. That is your source of hope. I'm not going to try to advize you - frankly, this one is beyond me. But, if you can at least begin to talk rationally with your family about the situation, you might be able to repair the damage in time. It strikes me that professional counseling will prove useful in this situation. All the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insightful Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 Thanks, everyone. The support is incredibly helpful. I sense the genuineness of your empathy and it is truly appreciated. =) Thank you all for helping me see that my awareness and understanding of the situation is my greatest strength. What is helping me when I get discouraged is to remember that I alone have the greatest hope of helping especially my daughter to heal. My constant love and consistent delight in her have the best chances of helping her find security and safety and peace... @ my mistake: Thanks for the book rec's. I will take a look. For my daughter, right now it's fairly mild (but disturbing nonetheless): she'll scratch/pick at a part of her body until it bleeds and scabs over. Then keep making it bleed every day for weeks until we gently coach her through it and try to incentivize having her love her body... then one part will heal and it will start somewhere else. First she picked her ear canals until they bled, then in front of her ear lobes. The last 2 weeks it's been the insides of her nostrils - she blows out big chunky scabs and picks at them with hair pins... She is seeing a therapist who, although declares herself to be Christian, is really just using modern secular psychology with no Bible, so it's actually been perfect. The Christian part keeps my wife happy, but the lack of biblical content keeps me happy =) My wife is much less attracted to me than before, but she expresses that the reason has more to do with my poor empathy and poor ability to feel her emotional pain through the difficult parenting years we've had. She has assured me that she believes her affection will improve as we grow in relationship with each other. so I've got some hope there. I don't believe she fully understands the depth of my skepticism, but at this point, I don't see how it would be helpful to share much more with her. Someone quoted this recently: "If someone does not value evidence, what evidence would be sufficient?" and I think that describes her right now. Her a priori commitment to hold to Christianity makes any criticisms of Christianity successfully rebuffed in her mind by any rationalization no matter how contrived... @ Llwellyn: THANK YOU. I appreciate your comfort. @ Yunea: Thank you so much for the affirmation. I forget that this is a courageous thing. It is good to think of it that way. It helps. @ Moanareina: You have no idea how AWESOME it is to hear from an adult adoptee. I love what you have to say because I'm sure my daughters have many of the same feelings you have but are too young to express them in words. So your perspective is so valuable. It comforts me much to know that my wife and I are coming to understand things that you wish your mom understood when you were a child. @ Margee: Thank you for the warm welcome and assurance. medicince for the soul. And I will remembe to laugh a lot. I need to do that more. It does feel good. @ Overcame faith: your mom sounds amazing. I love that she could be a "Christian" but not let that override her maternal instinct to love her child. The ideology only went so far. I'm SO glad you had the conversation with her and SO glad you listened to her. My parents tried to tell me that we were being to hard on our daughter - but we didn't listen because they didn't study the Bible like OUR pastor who, because of that, must have been MORE godly and more wise. So we listend to his sick advice... I envy you a lot, but I'm glad you missed that fork in the road because it just plain sucks down that path... Thanks for the encouragement! @ Elinas: Thanks for the encouragement, brother. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue elephant Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Sound like you have found some good professional help. I'm older, and my daughters are 25 and 21 now. I was brought up with a big dose of repressive fundamentalism and even though I had decided that Christianity was just a total crock by the time I had my children, I started their early years with a very manipulative and disciplinarian attitude. At the beginning of their teens, I just had to drop that stance. It simply wasn't working and was doing more harm than good. My biochemistry lecturer at uni one day made an off the cuff comment about the difference between facing off against your children vs drawing alongside them. AND the change of approach made all the difference. I started to talk to them as person to person, shared my own mistakes and experiences and dropped the mask. It worked. There are lots of petty disciplines that go along with a stiff Christian upbringing, but so often they are trying to force adult habits on little kids ( eg room tidying). If you really need to engage in room tidying, do it with your child and talk them through the organisational processes (for years if necessary). Come up with a very short list of values and virtues that you really want to see (like honesty kindness and integrity). I think Moanarina was right about the ADD. It is likely to be in there somewhere. I have found out that I have it in adulthood, as well as my two daughters having it. Believe in your daughters and wish for the best for them always and be guided by your intuition rather than rules. I would be fairly sure that your wife will settle down to a better relationship with you, now that you are changing. So many women have a fierce desire to continue on with their marriage, even when that man treat them quite horribly. They wish things would change and the husband would suddenly change to being kind, gentle and respectful. Your wife is one of the few that is getting that wish fulfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MightyLikely Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 My first reaction was, wow, the kid is only 8 years old and the dad has already figured out that he needs to change the destructive dynamic of discipline and disobedience. That usually takes decades, if it happens at all, long after it is too late to rewrite history. So good on you! Also you seem clear about what is wrong in the old dynamic. Most people need distance to see that clearly, so again, this is amazing. You seem to have experienced a "Road to Damascus" revelation that is taking you in a better direction than it took the apostle Paul. I agree that the Bible is not a good book to use as a reference for how to live, for as you mentioned, you can justify about anything based on the Bible. Best of luck with your wife. If you are able to change the marriage dynamic to one of mutual respect, that will affect the over-all tone of the household and should be beneficial to the healing of your daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insightful Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Thanks, Mighty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottsman Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 For just one individual the healing takes years. A family? You do have a long road ahead, BUT it only gets better from here. it will get better. healing takes time. im not a parent so thats all I can offer you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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