Eponymic Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I know a lot of it is backlash at how prissy people have gotten with decorum & language nowadays- the dreaded Political Correctness! Dum dum duuuuummMM!!!! But the backlash is just as worse in my opinion. All it does is end up looking like endorsement of negative practices like racism, bigotry, general violence, etc. Where's the freakin' middle ground? It's fine not to want to walk on pins & needles about every topic that comes around. Though that hardly means you have to be an uncouth prick about things either. Disagree with PC? Fine. I don't agree with it either, but at least I find a way to show some tact and don't sound like a sloven barbarian in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I know a lot of it is backlash at how prissy people have gotten with decorum & language nowadays- the dreaded Political Correctness! Dum dum duuuuummMM!!!! But the backlash is just as worse in my opinion. All it does is end up looking like endorsement of negative practices like racism, bigotry, general violence, etc. Where's the freakin' middle ground? The middle ground comes tommorow. PC is a necessary evil to create dialog. Words do have meaning. Eventually we move beyond these tools. The middle ground happens after awareness has been raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Political Correctness = Politcal Cleansing... There is a difference being polite because you are inclined to be polite, and having polite enforced upon one at end of gunbarrel... I do not espouse running around and calling folks who are not my exact skin tone or color *nigger* as the term is offensive to me on several levels. however when some shitheel tells me I cannot use the term because it is *offensive PC-wise*, well, fukk'im.. kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 The middle ground comes tommorow. PC is a necessary evil to create dialog. Words do have meaning. Eventually we move beyond these tools. The middle ground happens after awareness has been raised. I agree with Nivek a bit on this one. PC isn't necessary to create dialog. You can have a dialog without it, it's just that the people who feel the need of it are so ingrained in their fear based lives that they are to skittish to just have a good old honest chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I know a lot of it is backlash at how prissy people have gotten with decorum & language nowadays- the dreaded Political Correctness! Dum dum duuuuummMM!!!! But the backlash is just as worse in my opinion. All it does is end up looking like endorsement of negative practices like racism, bigotry, general violence, etc. Where's the freakin' middle ground? The middle ground comes tommorow. PC is a necessary evil to create dialog. Words do have meaning. Eventually we move beyond these tools. The middle ground happens after awareness has been raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wertbag Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I had an interesting case where I used the word Jap on a forum. I was told this was a racist term by another member. I attempted to point out the word is used in New Zealand solely as an abbreviation and is not racist or abusive in the context used (we drive Jap import cars, buy Jap stereos, have Jap friends). The Japanese friends I have are intelligent enough to tell the difference between an abbreviation and abuse, but because in other countries the term is used that way I'm told to never use it. I now don't use it on international forums, but locally where the meaning is obviously different to overseas I'm not worried by it. I guess the only way to be safe is to run every word we can use pass every other country in the world to make sure theres no possible way to offend anyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 I had an interesting case where I used the word Jap on a forum. I was told this was a racist term by another member. I attempted to point out the word is used in New Zealand solely as an abbreviation and is not racist or abusive in the context used (we drive Jap import cars, buy Jap stereos, have Jap friends). The Japanese friends I have are intelligent enough to tell the difference between an abbreviation and abuse, but because in other countries the term is used that way I'm told to never use it. I now don't use it on international forums, but locally where the meaning is obviously different to overseas I'm not worried by it. I guess the only way to be safe is to run every word we can use pass every other country in the world to make sure theres no possible way to offend anyone... Very true, things are different from culture to culture. Even giving a thumbs up or a okay sign are offensive in some cultures compared to others. So it's a matter of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 As an aside, have any of you noticed, or been guilty of, searching out a moment to make a racial comment or use racial language when in the presence of someone of different ethnicity and not be chastised (or beaten) for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadouKen24 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Where's the freakin' middle ground? I dunno about you, but I'm standing on it. I do believe I see some fellow forum-goers standing here as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 As an aside, have any of you noticed, or been guilty of, searching out a moment to make a racial comment or use racial language when in the presence of someone of different ethnicity and not be chastised (or beaten) for it? Doesn't stuff like this happen only among friends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 The middle ground comes tommorow. PC is a necessary evil to create dialog. Words do have meaning. Eventually we move beyond these tools. The middle ground happens after awareness has been raised. I agree with Nivek a bit on this one. PC isn't necessary to create dialog. You can have a dialog without it, it's just that the people who feel the need of it are so ingrained in their fear based lives that they are to skittish to just have a good old honest chat. The extreems define the middle by creating dialog. Are we having a dialog about this subject right now? Why? Because the extreems have created this dialog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samurai Tailor Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 As an aside, have any of you noticed, or been guilty of, searching out a moment to make a racial comment or use racial language when in the presence of someone of different ethnicity and not be chastised (or beaten) for it? All the time. The student body at my school is overwhelmingly poor and 95% black. And they tend to be... ethnocentric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I can be respectful in my speech without having my language sanitized by the thought police. Political correctness is the promotion of spineless pandering to special-interest groups with thin skins and chips on their shoulders. If someone doesn't like something I say, they can either disprove me or fuck off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Doesn't stuff like this happen only among friends? Generally people you are amicably acquainted with, but that doesn't mean you won't get the shit kicked out of you. To me it seems to be an attempt to see if they can get away with it, a testing of the water, so to speak. For instance, certain of my white friends have had more black acquaintances than I have, and therefore have no problem using the N word, or engaging in racial discussion, nor do I have a problem with it, (I suppose it is because I understand their inundation with blacks and the harmlessness of their remarks. However, there are others who get fidgety at the slightest mention of anything really racial, and sometimes, they'll try to say something racial themselves, and to me it seems as though they hesitate, and sometimes their voices waver when they do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I can be respectful in my speech without having my language sanitized by the thought police. Political correctness is the promotion of spineless pandering to special-interest groups with thin skins and chips on their shoulders. If someone doesn't like something I say, they can either disprove me or fuck off. Polical correctness also applies to actions. What if everywhere you went you were inundated with Christianity and it's symbols and you were looked down upon because you were not a Christian and cursed at and harassed daily and there was nothing you could do about it? If that is what happens, then why the desire to change it (if you have such a desire)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted February 1, 2006 Author Share Posted February 1, 2006 I can be respectful in my speech without having my language sanitized by the thought police. Political correctness is the promotion of spineless pandering to special-interest groups with thin skins and chips on their shoulders. If someone doesn't like something I say, they can either disprove me or fuck off. Polical correctness also applies to actions. What if everywhere you went you were inundated with Christianity and it's symbols and you were looked down upon because you were not a Christian and cursed at and harassed daily and there was nothing you could do about it? If that is what happens, then why the desire to change it (if you have such a desire)? True on both accounts. The PC horror is all about behavior modification, and in my mind, yes it is towards a religious end. So I disapprove of the whole thing. I just think you don't have to make their cause easier by being a rowdy asshole that they can't point to and say, 'see! That's why we need these laws!' And sure enough, they get their laws because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I can be respectful in my speech without having my language sanitized by the thought police. Political correctness is the promotion of spineless pandering to special-interest groups with thin skins and chips on their shoulders. If someone doesn't like something I say, they can either disprove me or fuck off. Polical correctness also applies to actions. What if everywhere you went you were inundated with Christianity and it's symbols and you were looked down upon because you were not a Christian and cursed at and harassed daily and there was nothing you could do about it? If that is what happens, then why the desire to change it (if you have such a desire)? I must admit I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, but if you're asking me how I would feel if I were harassed by Xians daily, then sure I'd want them to cease and desist. No one needs to use special language to prove to me that they are trying to be respectful or not, though. I don't ask anyone to kiss my ass, and nor shall I kiss anyone else's, which is what PC is all about, as I see it. Like I said, I can be respectful without having it forced on me, and people's efforts should be focused elsewhere than on the policing of other folks' words, save in a case of actual harassment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I can be respectful in my speech without having my language sanitized by the thought police. Political correctness is the promotion of spineless pandering to special-interest groups with thin skins and chips on their shoulders. If someone doesn't like something I say, they can either disprove me or fuck off. Polical correctness also applies to actions. What if everywhere you went you were inundated with Christianity and it's symbols and you were looked down upon because you were not a Christian and cursed at and harassed daily and there was nothing you could do about it? If that is what happens, then why the desire to change it (if you have such a desire)? I must admit I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, but if you're asking me how I would feel if I were harassed by Xians daily, then sure I'd want them to cease and desist. No one needs to use special language to prove to me that they are trying to be respectful or not, though. I don't ask anyone to kiss my ass, and nor shall I kiss anyone else's, which is what PC is all about, as I see it. Like I said, I can be respectful without having it forced on me, and people's efforts should be focused elsewhere than on the policing of other folks' words, save in a case of actual harassment. Sorry, I wasn't real clear. I'm just looking at the other side and maybe I have a different view of what political correctness entails. This is the definition I am looking at: 1. Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation. And this one as found in the Thesaurus section: Noun 1. political correctness - avoidance of expressions or actions that can be perceived to exclude or marginalize or insult people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against. I was applying it to religion. Asuryan mentioned to me in another thread about how her country (Italy) has now made it illegal to remove a cross that is on a wall in any public place. It's a mandatory 10 months in jail for just taking it off the wall of a hospital, school or any public place. To me, this is politically incorrect and should be changed. She made no mention of this, I only applied what she said to this concept. To me, this action by the government is directly an action that is perceived to exclude, marginalize and insult people that are socially disadvantaged and discriminated against to the ones that are not Christian. So, I was just wondering if it was a standard that we really want to uphold...one of not being politically correct, or if it was merely a double standard that only applied when we are in the minority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Here's a funny and sad that happened yesterday. Went to get new ID badge with co-worker. She got her picture done first, just as another member of the security team entered the room (this man is black). She hadn't noticed him, and was looking at her image on the computer exclaiming "Ugh....I'm so white!". I paid little attention to this at first, because we live in Alaska....and damn near every Caucasian person who does not worship tanning beds is white. Really white. Heck, she had no reason to complain anyway....I'm paler than she is any day of the week. Just look at my profile pic.....I reflect the sun (kinda)! This was uninteresting....UNTIL she noticed the presence of the black security guard. He was grinning at her. Now, anyone with half a brain could tell he was simply amused at her vain self assessment. SHE suddenly got all apologetic (which amused him even more) towards him. "Oh sorry, I didn't see you standing there.....I didn't mean anything by it....." It was a little embarassing that she was exposing herself as such a nit-wit. Like suddenly the "w" word (white...for those who missed it) is taboo if a black person is present. I mean....if you order a vanilla milkshake at a fast food place, do you need to apologize to the black people in line behind you? Sometimes an apology reveals deep guilt about prejudices. And so in turn, exposes the prejudice of the apologizer to everyone listening. So where they had absolutely no reason to apologise in the first place, NOW they do owe the apology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 IMO, every decent person cares whether or not the words s/he uses unnecessarily hurt others, yet every one of us is capable of uttering an unthinking word or phrase. What's important is how that "unthinkingness" is then handled by the participants. To me, the aftermath of the use of the "objectionable phrase" is the arena in which we can clarify, reach out, let it pass, offer apologies, etc., and, in general, set things back on a good track. The aftermath is about human good will and has to come from a personal inclination to decency; the genuineness of the interaction can't really be crafted or moderated by public pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I'm neutral to "PC" words but the PC way of presenting some opinions or history, that's a different story. I'm not caring unless it actually harms everybody's interactions like politicial spin from rightist or leftist people or rewriting history and things like that. But if one person's over sensitive about anything, he or she's just weird or simply overpolite. Nothing PC about it. The only true PC is the political, religion, scientfic and historical spin. People who say "African American" and go to ridiculous lengths to be sensitive to races though boring, is not worthy of the word of PC. They're just oversensitive. People who say Hell is good or Hitler didn't kill jews or a politicial Party secretly pushing things, while saying different things or saying God created the world or censoring harmless books, that's the real deal of Politicial Correctness. That kind of thing though, wordy in of itself, is dangerous to our freedoms. A person doing silly AA stuff and who says "African American" or "Vertically challenged" is simply eccentric unless they take it to court. A pope declaring persecution of homosexual priests is not just PC, they're bigoted and dangerous to our mental health and freedoms. Spin IS PC. Silly overlong, oversensitive words and mannerisms is not PC, they're overpolite and oversensitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 I've been really trying to avoid getting into this too much but I have to put this out there: Words have Meaning. Words become charged with negative histories and stereotypes. One example: "Nazi". What's that but just a political party? But along with this comes a whole mental image of an evil force that wrought death and destruction. Historically other words in this country and elsewhere become charged with "other" meanings that when someone is called by these words, they type cast them as individuals. As society tries to equalize itself and give the marginalized equal footing, the continued use of these words work counter productively. The awareness of this situation by looking at these charged words is for the purpose of dialog and awareness about these issues. If everyone were aware of these issues, if the dialog had actually been happening effectively, then this whole issue of "political correctness" would never have even come up. There would be nothing driving it. It happened for a reason. Back full circle, once the dialog occurs and change comes, then the issue dies because it has been resolved. It's not pleasant and sometimes unfair, but it part of the process of equilibrium. It is the process of change. That's where the middle is. It's coming. I wish to point out, that I am a fairly middle of the road white American male. I try to be fair and unbiased, open and non-judgmental, but I am also a product of my own culture. I am quite surprised sometimes to hear certain stereotypes and prejudices coming out of my mouth. I have been programmed with biases, whether I like them or not. Words have charged meaning, and by modifying the words we use, it helps us re-evaluate some of those inherited prejudices. Honestly, anyone who says they don't have any biases would have to claim that they are not influenced on any level by the society they live in. I find that unlikely, IMO. Last comment: Making fun of it by exploiting the far, far extreems such as being offended by the term "black ice", is missing the real point and is counter productive to the heart of the real issues. Change usually is rough, not smooth. It can be irritating sometimes depending, but it's far from, "just plain stupid." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmoke Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 And with that, I have nothing to add. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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