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Goodbye Jesus

Have You Gone Ahead And Committed The Unpardonable Sin?


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After reading the bible carefully and thinking about what this means .... it seems that Jesus inferred it was saying that he had a demon or similar - because he spoke about it after some of the pharisees accused him of this.

 

Have you ever thought this or said this? 

 

I was reading the bible again lately and noted that Paul said that he was a blasphemer or spoke evil about Jesus before he became a follower, but was forgiven because he said it was in ignorance and unbelief.   

 

I just wondered if this was something that people really wrestled with, because I've gone through times when I've thought I have.   

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Goodbye Jesus

Doesn't it seem ironic that 1. there is an unpardonable sin and 2. the Bible is so vague about what it is?

 

Good of your to notice how the teachings of Paul do no match the teachings of other New Testament writers.  

 

It's not just for this topic.  Paul and the other writers didn't agree about many things.

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There is a far more basic question that must be answered before a person starts asking questions about god, jesus, heaven, hell, unpardonable sin, and what the bible supposedly says about anything, biscuit.

 

IS THE BIBLE TRUE? Is the bible historically accurate? Were the people written about in the bible real people? Did the events written about in the bible actually occur?  In other words, is the bible literally and historically true?

 

The answer to those questions is no. Historians have not been able to authenticate the validity of the bible. The evidence, or lack of any evidence really, indicates the bible is a collection of ancient myths, legends, and folklore. The evidence strongly suggest the bible is a man made collection of ancient fables that has been successfully marketed as theology.

 

In other words, it doesn't matter what the bible says because it isn't true. God didn't write it humans did. Once a person understands and accepts that life gets a lot easier.

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We have all committed the sin here of being a Christian.  Sure we are embarrassed about it, but it is funny looking back at how we can have been so stupid, but such is life and we move on to better things.

 

Biscuit - Hi and welcome to the forum.

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Thanks for your replies.

 

Geezer - it seems impossible to work out whether many events in the bible truly happened - i think it might take absolutely ages to work out, and in the end the bible says that its the Holy Spirit that decides whether you are converted - certainly I don't think that it is all literally true. The Christian friends that I have had would say that you need the Holy Spirit to understand it.

 

The thing is, having read it and then thought it was true, so that you became religious and hung on to your belief despite whatever stresses there were .... then when you lost belief, I just wondered if people then wondered again who Jesus really was, and if in that process they sinned the unforgiveable sin?

 

Perhaps its not something that people would speak about.

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Thanks for your replies.

 

Geezer - it seems impossible to work out whether many events in the bible truly happened - i think it might take absolutely ages to work out, and in the end the bible says that its the Holy Spirit that decides whether you are converted - certainly I don't think that it is all literally true. The Christian friends that I have had would say that you need the Holy Spirit to understand it.

 

The thing is, having read it and then thought it was true, so that you became religious and hung on to your belief despite whatever stresses there were .... then when you lost belief, I just wondered if people then wondered again who Jesus really was, and if in that process they sinned the unforgiveable sin?

 

Perhaps its not something that people would speak about.

 

Impossible to work out whether events in the Bible happened?  That is your indoctrination talking.  I personally don't care if you believe or not but you will experience a lot less cognitive dissonance once you get past religion.  You will probably have to work through the fear that traps you.  That part is never pleasant.  How bad depends on how much fear Christians put into you.

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Biscuit, I would like to suggest you stop reading apologist and start reading historians. Anything written by Dr. Bart Ehrman and/or Dr. Robert M Price would be a good place to start.

 

Just google Bart Ehrman and Dr Robert M Price on Amazon. They were both Fundamentalist preachers at one time in their life. Their research eventually led them to leave their faith. They have both written extensively about the bible, Jesus, and Christianity from a historical perspective. If you just read their books that will keep you busy for a couple of years and I assure you their research will give you a different perspective of the bible and Christianity.

 

Oh yeah, the concept of sin is something that only exist in organized religion. Personal actions may be illegal, immoral, as defined by certain segments of society, or just considered bad taste but it isn't sin outside the walls of a church. In order for sin to exists the story of the Garden of Eden must be literally and historically true, but it isn't. Their is no such thing as original sin, and if sin isn't real then Jesus has no purpose.

 

Scholars know Genesis was written during the Babylonian captivity and as many as five contributors have been identified. The Garden of Eden story is most likely a midrash rewrite taken from Ezekiel 28: 13-19. If that is true then there is no such thing as being born in sin because the Garden of Eden story is nothing more than a fable, and common sense pretty much affirms that too.

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Thanks for your replies.

 

Geezer - it seems impossible to work out whether many events in the bible truly happened - i think it might take absolutely ages to work out, and in the end the bible says that its the Holy Spirit that decides whether you are converted - certainly I don't think that it is all literally true. The Christian friends that I have had would say that you need the Holy Spirit to understand it.

 

The thing is, having read it and then thought it was true, so that you became religious and hung on to your belief despite whatever stresses there were .... then when you lost belief, I just wondered if people then wondered again who Jesus really was, and if in that process they sinned the unforgiveable sin?

 

Perhaps its not something that people would speak about.

 

The Holy Spirit (aka Wholly Spook) apparently speaks with a forked tongue and delivers a lot of mixed messages since there are thousands and thousands of christian denominations, each believing that it's the only one that got it right.

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In the real world the "unpardonable sin" is not gaining the understanding that this is your one and only life; and allowing time wasted by being held in fear by some silly concept having no basis in reality or self merit.

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No-one has committed the unpardonable sin because "sin" is meaningless when divorced from doctrine; as the doctrine is meaningless, so is the concept of sin.

 

That's quite apart from the difficulty of working out on earth the bible actually identifies as that sin...

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No-one has committed the unpardonable sin because "sin" is meaningless when divorced from doctrine; as the doctrine is meaningless, so is the concept of sin.

 

That's quite apart from the difficulty of working out on earth the bible actually identifies as that sin...

That is correct. Outside of the bible there is no sin. Outside of christianity or any man made religion there is no such thing as sin. Yay freedom!

 

As per the OP. Yes i am sure by accident i have committed this sin countless times. 

 

Even if there is a hell and i go to it, i wouldn't even know which gods hell i was in. Why is murder forgivable, but saying jesus has an unclean spirit unforgivable? To me it is just ego on gods part. LIke everything else in the bible, now that i am deconverted, it all makes no logical sense. But according to christians, faith trumps reason....and evidence....rational thinking....logic....sanity....etc.

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If I were still a believer, it would matter. To the degree that you feel guilty or culpable, is determined by your degree of belief, I'm assuming.

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Biscuit,

 

The "unpardonable sin" that most people talk about is mostly saying that Jesus was doing miracles by the power of Satan.There are other places in the Bible where other "unpardonable" sins occur, like putting your hand to the plow and looking back as it were, like in Hebrews chapter six. You could also try not being born again and see where that gets you. Or how about the one where you do good works in His name, and work many miracles in His name, and he still says "depart from me"  you workers of iniquity (this one should set well with Christians...they all admit they still sin)...

 

I committed several unpardonable sins right in the church house back in the day by thinking and reasoning while I sat there listening to God's Word, just before I was born into this life of knowing that I'm going to an eternal Hell of fire and brimstone.  I heard a sermon once and the preacher said that if you worry that you have committed the unpardonable sin, then you haven't committed it, or the Holy Spirit wouldn't still be drawing you in.

 

That might be true, Biscuit. If you have doubts, you can still go back! That preacher I heard said so. 

 

The beauty of it all is, when BibleGod goes away, BibleDevil also goes away. So does BibleHell, and BibleHeaven, and most important of all, so do BibleSins. 

 

So have I committed this unpardonable sin? I suspect so.  Welcome to Ex-C!

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Doesn't it seem ironic that 1. there is an unpardonable sin and 2. the Bible is so vague about what it is?

 

Good of your to notice how the teachings of Paul do no match the teachings of other New Testament writers.  

 

It's not just for this topic.  Paul and the other writers didn't agree about many things.

Matthew 12:31 The Unpardonable Sin

31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

Mark 3:28-29

28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

 

Seems pretty clear to me.  You can rubbish Jesus all you want, but say something against the Spirit and you are fucked.  This being the Bible, I'm sure there must be somewhere that says the opposite!

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Doesn't it seem ironic that 1. there is an unpardonable sin and 2. the Bible is so vague about what it is?

 

Good of your to notice how the teachings of Paul do no match the teachings of other New Testament writers.  

 

It's not just for this topic.  Paul and the other writers didn't agree about many things.

Matthew 12:31 The Unpardonable Sin

31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

Mark 3:28-29

28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

 

Seems pretty clear to me.  You can rubbish Jesus all you want, but say something against the Spirit and you are fucked.  This being the Bible, I'm sure there must be somewhere that says the opposite!

 

 

Mark 3:28-29 is a response to verse 22

 

Mark 3:22

And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

 

Does not say one word about the Holy Spirit yet somehow this is the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit (at least according to the Christian scholars in the denominations and organizations I use to circle in so consider the source.)  The so called reasoning behind this was that the mockers were attributing the power for the miracles to the wrong source.  And of course in verse 25 Jesus quotes Abraham Lincoln.  :)

 

 

The Book of Mathew, being an almost word for word copy of Mark, has the power of the Holy Spirit falsely attributed Beelzebub in verse 24.

 

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

 

 

So at least according to some preachers you can doom yourself to hell without even realizing you have.  And to preachers that kind of fear is pure gold so they have capitalized on it.  Hey, it kept me Christian for decades.

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Doesn't it seem ironic that 1. there is an unpardonable sin and 2. the Bible is so vague about what it is?

 

Good of your to notice how the teachings of Paul do no match the teachings of other New Testament writers.

 

It's not just for this topic. Paul and the other writers didn't agree about many things.

 

Matthew 12:31 The Unpardonable Sin31[/size]"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32[/size]"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

Mark 3:28-29

28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter,[/size] [/size]29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”[/size]

 

Seems pretty clear to me. You can rubbish Jesus all you want, but say something against the Spirit and you are fucked. This being the Bible, I'm sure there must be somewhere that says the opposite!

Mark 3:28-29 is a response to verse 22

 

Mark 3:22

And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.[/size]

 

Does not say one word about the Holy Spirit yet somehow this is the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit (at least according to the Christian scholars in the denominations and organizations I use to circle in so consider the source.) The so called reasoning behind this was that the mockers were attributing the power for the miracles to the wrong source. And of course in verse 25 Jesus quotes Abraham Lincoln. :)

 

 

The Book of Mathew, being an almost word for word copy of Mark, has the power of the Holy Spirit falsely attributed Beelzebub in verse 24.

 

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.[/size]

 

 

So at least according to some preachers you can doom yourself to hell without even realizing you have. And to preachers that kind of fear is pure gold so they have capitalized on it. Hey, it kept me Christian for decades.

Sorry, you will have to excuse my literal intepretations of the Bible. Old habits die hard!

 

Now you mention it, it makes a lot of (non)sense. I was amazed at first when I read about how various famous theologians and scholars interpreted the Bible. Compared to a lot of their theological ideas, this leap is relatively mild. I guess it depends on your ideas about the trinity and the importance of each member within?

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Sorry, you will have to excuse my literal intepretations of the Bible. Old habits die hard!

 

 

Oh I'm not saying you were wrong.  My statements were based more upon Christian interpretation than yours.  Your statement was strait forward based on the word in the verse.

 

 

 

 

Now you mention it, it makes a lot of (non)sense. I was amazed at first when I read about how various famous theologians and scholars interpreted the Bible. Compared to a lot of their theological ideas, this leap is relatively mild. I guess it depends on your ideas about the trinity and the importance of each member within?

 

Well of course today I have written the whole thing off as superstition.  Looking back I should have said Christian theology is vague about the "unpardonable" sin.  Your are right in that, for the passages in question, the Bible itself is more strait forward that what some Christian theologians have done with those passages.  I must agree that you are right.

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Doesn't it seem ironic that 1. there is an unpardonable sin and 2. the Bible is so vague about what it is?

 

Good of your to notice how the teachings of Paul do no match the teachings of other New Testament writers.  

 

It's not just for this topic.  Paul and the other writers didn't agree about many things.

Isn't the entire bible vague on just about every subject?

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At my church we were taught that the unpardonable sin is not believing in Jesus. My Calvinist commentaries and my own research suggested that in the context that Jesus is in when he refers to it, the unpardonable sin is attributing the works of Jesus to the devil. Well, I don't believe in Jesus, and I find the character depicted in the New Testament to be more akin to a rakshasa (a class of demon from Hindu mythology). He is a demonic hell hound, eager to sink his teeth of eternal damnation into all non-Christians. So either way, I've committed what any intelligent evangelical would call the unpardonable sin.

 

But for good measure, I do indeed deny the Holy Spirit.

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I think I have by trying to work out the differences between it and demons since Christians always said demons cause you worry about sinning vs the spirit convicting of sin.

 

Speaking in tounges and rolling on floor is a form of possession and guess which two entities do that to a person

 

The bible is vague I think if it were a major problem the bible would have less stories on gay and lesbians and more warnings about the sin.

 

That and the gospel of Thomas says that to commit it is to taste the light AMX reject it

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     Mark 3:30 says that he had an "unclean" spirit (re: v.3:22).  Anyhow, this could be seen as blasphemy (ie. it's a slander against or diminishes the holy spirit) since they're accusing the holiest of spirits of being the among (if not the) worst of spirits.  If this were a literal royal figure in front of them they'd likely have quite a lot to answer for if they ran their mouths like that.

 

          mwc

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I wouldn't worry too much about this, Biscuit.

 

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth, who comes from the Father.

Yet, if you check out this thread... 

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/67585-a-new-testament-%E2%80%9Ccontradiction-by-omission%E2%80%9D/#.VTua-iFVhHw

 

...you'll see that the holy spirit failed to give the martyr Stephen the truth about Abraham, Joseph and Jacob, when he was speaking to the Sanhedrin.

 

Therefore, neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit can be trusted. 

 

Which, of course, means that what Jesus said about the unpardonable sin shouldn't be trusted either.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA. 

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We've had a lot of fun amongst ourselves trying to "out blaspheme" each other in several past threads. If there ever was concern, it disappears quickly in the light of reason.

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If it is impossible to "renew again unto repentance" those that have "fallen away", as per Hebrews 6:6, then, presumably, no one who walks away from Christianity can be pardoned.  Therefore, that sin is unpardonable.  No need to speak any blasphemy against any so called person of the trinity.

 

Which to my mind makes the whole issue of blasphemy against the holy spirit rather a pointless issue.

 

So, either there is more than one unpardonable sin (which is inconsistent with the plain words of Mark 3 and Matthew 12) or that sin is not one of simple blasphemy or "speaking against" (which is inconsistent with the plain words of Mark 3 and Matthew 12).

 

I might find the process of reasoning this out leads me to put as a heading over this particular theological issue an acronym I used to use on certain papers in my work:  "I.A.B."  (It's All Bollocks")

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