Insightful Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 From the Desiring God website: "Believing the whole Bible, with all of its varied pieces, is not a small or simple thing. A theology that makes sense of all of Scripture will require a great deal of mystery. Are we willing to admit that the Bible can say two things that seem to our minds to be contradictory and, in the end, not contradict each other after all?" Piper goes on to explain that the reason there are so many factions withing Christianity is because we aren't willing to embrace mystery. Wow, there is so much that can be said about this. Why does the Bible have so many "varied pieces"? Why is it not "a small or simple thing to believe it"? What about childlike faith? Why must we have a sophisticated, nuanced faith that can deal with seeming contradictions? Why does making sense of all Scripture with a coherent theology "require a great deal of mystery"? Why should we be willing to admit that when they Bible says two things that "seen to our minds contradictory" that they aren't ACTUALLY contradictory???? This is not a call to embrace mystery but rather cognitive dissonance. This is a tacit admission that the Bible DOES contain many things that DO appear contradictory. But why should we give the Bible the benefit of the doubt when it appears contradictory?? Because we already believe it to be flawless, right? But how can we ever come to believe it is flawless when it is filled with "seeming" contradictions??? Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 This is not a call to embrace mystery but rather cognitive dissonance. Good call. I completely agree with your statement. Embracing "mystery" definitely does not mean embracing the myths of a desert culture as "truth". It does not mean that we have to accept opposing versions of "truth" either. Embracing "mystery" is accepting that if there is a being such a "God" that it may be well nigh impossible to completely comprehend and understand such a being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 I agree. Good call, Insightful. In the words of Big Mama from Cat on a Hot Tin Roof: "I say crap, too, just like Big Daddy - CRAP!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 It's just John Piper's way of trying to wiggle out of having to be intellectually honest. If the bible makes no sense, that's because it's too much for our minds to understand. It's impossible to argue with something like this that can't be proven or disproven, so Xians who buy into this think they have a trump card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 16, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted May 16, 2015 I don't know about y'all, but I embraced the bullshit longer than I should have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Cheap apologetics are cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Christianity "mystery" is an admission that human understanding is illogical. Christian "mystery" is incompatible with the law of identity, non-contradiction, and the excluded middle. Christianity is fundamentally irrational and states that human thought is ineffective. "The LORD knows the thoughts of man; he knows that they are futile." Psalm 94:11. An Intelligible argument cannot be formulated from an assumption that accepts the Triune God of Scripture. The proof against Christianity is that believing Christianity you couldn't prove anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceWoman Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 In my experience (and based on the experiences of many very smart people on this forum), the only Christians who get deep enough into it to notice all the problems are the ones who have a lot of faith and want to know more, get closer to god, look for answers, and deepen their faith. But then once we go down that path for deeper study, we see the dissonance and often eventually fall away altogether. What Piper is implying is that we just didn't have enough faith once we got to the end of the rabbit hole -- which is silly because we had so much faith and wanted more, which is why we went down that path in the first place. It's an insult that we don't have enough faith, when "enough faith" is what got us here. Whatever. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I once heard this explained by a preacher as a process of "truth and counter truth", both of which is true. Like saying that "look before you leap" is as valid a proverb as "he who hesitates is lost", albeit they say the opposite to each other. However, the bible is claimed to be an inerrant set of perfect teachings, not mere adages that are applicable only in certain circumstances. I prefer mysteries to be genuinely impenetrable questions of life, the universe and everything, not the result of trying to wrap the mind around contradictions on faith that they do not contradict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewTomlinson Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 If I read the Bible as though it is just another book, but it happens to be divine truth, then its truth will become undeniably obvious to me due to its own virtues. If I read the Bible as though it is divine truth, and it happens to be just another book, then I will deny and ignore every fault and contradiction due to my own bias. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 What Piper is implying is that we just didn't have enough faith once we got to the end of the rabbit hole -- which is silly because we had so much faith and wanted more, which is why we went down that path in the first place. Great point! Yes, I would venture that a large percentage of us here on this forum simply wanted to know God more and more and MORE and the Christian "hole" simply ended with a sudden SPLAT! Most people that stay in religion do seem to have a...shall we say..."limited" amount of faith. They only want to go so far with it or they only want to believe what is convenient for them, so they don't explore the possibilities and the "what ifs" or the host of other pathways where faith could lead. Taking the "left-hand" path is scary and/or not-approved by the Bible or clergy or pastor or the bloody homegroup. Once one does leave the easy path of mainstream Christianity, the way is very uncertain and who knows where one could possibly end up? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 The bible is a "mystery" only because it is claiming to be one simple, unified whole with one message for all humanity from the all-powerful god, but it is NOT. I believe that if the bible were truly one simple, unified whole with one message for all humanity from the all-powerful god, then it would be perfectly clear to all humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Who doesn't love a good mystery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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