Scottsman Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I think we have all heard this argument. if early christians didnt believe christ was real, why were they willing to die for their faith. What is an appropriate response to this claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Muslims die for their faith all the time these days. Does that prove Islam is true? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesOpened Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Look at Islam,they are still doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesOpened Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 lol MM, you must have hit the button seconds before me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I don't think it matters except in the case of the first people to claim that they saw Jesus risen from the dead. Any early Christians besides presumed eyewitnesses can be ignored. Some of us went over this argument with Wololo a while ago. After that, he hasn't been back. We don't know anything about which individuals are supposed to have both witnessed Jesus risen AND have been martyred, except some of the apostles. In their case, the stories of their martyrdoms are later and less historically grounded even than the gospels, so that you need more faith in the tradition to accept those martyrdom stories than you do to accept the gospels as historically accurate. Candida Moss wrote a book debunking the cult of early Christian martyrdom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Persecution Some people will appeal to Paul in I Cor 15:5-8, who enumerates those to whom (he says) the risen Jesus appeared: "and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also ..." There are a number of problems with this; perhaps Blood or some others are more up on the problems than I. Three I can think of are: 1. Jesus' appearance to Paul seems on a level with his earlier appearances. But his appearance to Paul was spiritual, not bodily. True, Paul is arguing in I Cor for the resurrection of the body. But his evidence doesn't support that, since, the way he words it, it really only supports faith that Jesus rose spiritually, or that Jesus had a special, glorified body. 2. the five hundred figure is very sketchy. The number of those in the Upper Room story in Acts can't have been more than, say, 120. Paul's implied invitation to go ask the surviving brethren to recount their stories looks like a rhetorical flourish. People were going to go from Corinth to try to track down surviving witnesses from decades ago in Palestine - or were they just going to take Paul's word for it? Pretty clearly, the latter. This is like the "go check it out in the records of Pontius Pilate" invitations that Justin Martyr and other early Christian apologists made. It's a seeming appeal to known evidence which actually is an invention. 3. If Jesus rose from the dead and the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE FOR ALL OF ITS HISTORY depends for its eternal salvation on Jesus' work, and belief is a requirement, then why the FUCK did the risen Jesus only appear to a few in a corner in hiding? He thought the Romans were going to crucify him again? God's work to make this stupendous event known would be so pitifully lacking that the obvious explanation is, it was a story that originated with a small group of disciples - whether they were having visions or just made it up or what. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamps1962 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 From what I have read a lot of researchers think ,many of the stories of early Christians being martyred for their faith is a pile of doo doo. Very little found outside the bible to document Christians fed to Lions, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Knowing how christianity twists the shit out of every fucking thing -- it is MY personal opinion the the "early christians that were tortured, murdered and fed to the lions" were more than likely all the other people from all the other faiths that started an uproar once the Romans finished piecing the bible together. They were "believers" in the past tense. They "believed" in the other religions that christianity stole from. But that's just my opinion. And if you really think about it, it makes more sense than anything the church will tell you about the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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