Preparing To Come Out - Looking For Assistance

[FreeThinkerNZ]

FTNZ, I'd been interested to hear what advice you have to offer (and anyone else out there that wishes to share) in regards to this. It is something that I have been thinking about and trying to decide on the best course of action for my own coming out.

 

PMs are welcome if you don't feel like posting on here.

Ok.  I haven't come out to my own parents, and I don't intend to, but if asked I will be honest... but I will say very little.  Like "I don't believe in god anymore.  But I appreciate the upbringing you gave me and I support everyone having their own beliefs as long as they don't push them on others".  Truthfully, I wish they hadn't raised me to see xianity as an option, but no one can change the past, so why hurt them by saying it?  They were/are brainwashed and they were doing their best at the time with what they knew.

 

I think if a person really wants to tell their parents they no longer believe, that is fine, as long as they are not financially dependent on parents who might withdraw support with such news.  In that case I would urge the person not to come out until they are safe.

 

So, for people who can afford to risk it, then I think they should think ahead about what they will say, then do it.  I think it's very important to be ready to say you don't want to discuss it, if things get heated.  I've read about some people on here who felt they needed to be prepared to debate things... I think that's unnecessary and unhelpful.  I think it's very important to keep things civil and to use an abundance of compassion when talking with them or writing to them.

 

The truth is, they believe in nonsense, because they are not applying critical thinking in this area.  But I think it's best to keep this to ourselves and not give them any reason to think we are looking down on them.  We need to be secure enough in ourselves to allow them to have their delusional beliefs without feeling threatened by them, or angry about them.  They believe in something that we no longer believe in.  It doesn't have to lead to disharmony.  If they introduce that, we can choose to stay calm and rise above it.  Focus on the good things they bring to your life.

 

Hope that helps.

[00LukeMan]

wyson - Yes, I'm familiar with Carrier and that video in particular, it was already on my list to use. In regards to being honest, perhaps I don't have a good reason. Maybe I am just being emotional. The heart of the matter is that I realized I don't have any particularly good reason to believe any of it, no more so than believing in any other religion. I've looked at the major apologetics, for example I've read William Lane Craig's Reasonable Faith and found it utterly unconvincing and some of his arguments downright silly.

What study I have done is that the Bible is full of contradictions (ones that come to mind are Jesus' birth, death and resurrection accounts, the different depictions of Jesus in the diferent gospels, Judas' death, the different creation myths) and is not backed up well historically (The Exodus and pre-davidic Israel. I'm familiar with Carrier's work and think he makes a persuasive argument for a mythic Jesus, but even if there was a Jesus that doesn't make the gospels reliable), prophecies have clearly not come true, even within the Bible's own story (destruction of Tyre, Damascus, Egypt and Babylon, God promising to drive out all of the Canaanites and that no one would be able to resist Israel), its scientific claims are rubbish (the creation myths again, though I am aware that they have not always been taken literally, Noah and the flood). And even if these were not the case, I recognize that if I had not been brought up Christian and read the Bible now, I should react no differently than when I now read the Qur'an or Greek or Norse mythology.

Maybe that is a poor reason, but I didn't find all this stuff after I lost my faith, this is what made me lose faith.

 

FreeThinkerNZ - I appreciate you all trying to help and I know it is important to take advice from those with more experience, I just loath the thought of having to smile and nod at everything for what, until I'm 30, 40? When can I be an individual?

If there is a kinder way, I am open to that, but it seems like all I could do right now would be to lie constantly or sever any contact with my family and neither of those is acceptable.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

FreeThinkerNZ - I appreciate you all trying to help and I know it is important to take advice from those with more experience, I just loath the thought of having to smile and nod at everything for what, until I'm 30, 40? When can I be an individual?

If there is a kinder way, I am open to that, but it seems like all I could do right now would be to lie constantly or sever any contact with my family and neither of those is acceptable.

 

You are using black and white thinking, also known as dichotomous reasoning.  It can lead to the logical fallacy of false dichotomy.  This thought pattern goes hand in hand with a fundamentalist upbringing.  The truth is, there are more than two options.  You can overcome this habitual way of thinking, with practice.

 

If you handle it well, it should be possible to come out to them and still have a good relationship.  OTOH, even with the best approach on your part, if they still shun you that is on them.  I think if you proceed cautiously and with compassion, you can come out with minimal collateral damage.  When it comes to saying stuff to them about your nonbelief, less is more.  Let them ponder each idea then come back to you with questions.  Take your time.

[mymistake]

wyson - Yes, I'm familiar with Carrier and that video in particular, it was already on my list to use. In regards to being honest, perhaps I don't have a good reason. Maybe I am just being emotional. The heart of the matter is that I realized I don't have any particularly good reason to believe any of it, no more so than believing in any other religion. I've looked at the major apologetics, for example I've read William Lane Craig's Reasonable Faith and found it utterly unconvincing and some of his arguments downright silly.

What study I have done is that the Bible is full of contradictions (ones that come to mind are Jesus' birth, death and resurrection accounts, the different depictions of Jesus in the diferent gospels, Judas' death, the different creation myths) and is not backed up well historically (The Exodus and pre-davidic Israel. I'm familiar with Carrier's work and think he makes a persuasive argument for a mythic Jesus, but even if there was a Jesus that doesn't make the gospels reliable), prophecies have clearly not come true, even within the Bible's own story (destruction of Tyre, Damascus, Egypt and Babylon, God promising to drive out all of the Canaanites and that no one would be able to resist Israel), its scientific claims are rubbish (the creation myths again, though I am aware that they have not always been taken literally, Noah and the flood). And even if these were not the case, I recognize that if I had not been brought up Christian and read the Bible now, I should react no differently than when I now read the Qur'an or Greek or Norse mythology.

Maybe that is a poor reason, but I didn't find all this stuff after I lost my faith, this is what made me lose faith.

 

 

 

I think you are doing fine.  Let's remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  The

 

appropriate response to an extraordinary claim is to ignore it until the level of evidence supporting it is as

 

compelling as the nature of the claim.  And Christianity is a very extraordinary claim.  Most of us were 

 

brainwashed into Christianity using underhanded tactics.  So we were conditioned to accept it on bad

 

evidence.  But when we step back and look with fresh eyes the weak arguments supporting Christianity

 

and the emptiness where the evidence was suppose to be speaks volumes.  So far Christianity had earned

 

only ridicule.  That is all it deserves.

[00LukeMan]

FreeThinkerNZ - *sigh* You are correct. I am really trying to think more reasonably, but it's hard to counter two decades of being trained to do the opposite. Ebing emotionally invested in the topic doesn't help.

 

This just in: It seems that my grandfather found some of the books in my car which I've checked out from the library (biology, cosmology, history of religion which to my family means "atheist") so my Dad emailed me and asked me directly if I was an atheist. Not wishing to lie to him, I said yes, that I've been studying a lot and that I am no longer convinced the Bible is true, that was it. He responded that it was just a phase and that he had "all the same doubts when I was in my 20s but God used them to strengthen my faith." So that's a relief I guess.

I can still continue calmly and compassionately as you've advised.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

FreeThinkerNZ - *sigh* You are correct. I am really trying to think more reasonably, but it's hard to counter two decades of being trained to do the opposite. Ebing emotionally invested in the topic doesn't help.

 

This just in: It seems that my grandfather found some of the books in my car which I've checked out from the library (biology, cosmology, history of religion which to my family means "atheist") so my Dad emailed me and asked me directly if I was an atheist. Not wishing to lie to him, I said yes, that I've been studying a lot and that I am no longer convinced the Bible is true, that was it. He responded that it was just a phase and that he had "all the same doubts when I was in my 20s but God used them to strengthen my faith." So that's a relief I guess.

I can still continue calmly and compassionately as you've advised.

That's a great outcome.  He is coping by sticking his head in the sand and denying you're actually an atheist.  It's a way for him to avoid thinking about the fact that people stop believing in god, forever.  Hopefully he and your Mom won't mention god in every conversation from now on, lol.

 

I think we would all agree it's hard to de-program our mind to think more reasonably, when all we've ever known is our xian upbringing.  Try to be gentle with yourself, it's not your fault you have these thinking habits.  They do lessen with time.  I've found participating at ex-c has helped me de-program.  Reading the posts of xians here helps you learn about distorted thinking.  Good luck!

[00LukeMan]

Yep, as long as I don't bring up Hebrews 6, he should do just fine. (And he probably won't find it or think I'm that far gone. He just reads the psalms for devotions)

As for reasoning, being one here has helped, also listening to Matt Dillahunty because my god that man is quick and explains clearly. Also, what do you (all of you) think of RationalWiki?

[Travi]

Yep, it's always a "phase", and God is just testing you. If that is best outcome in this situation, then wonderful. Like FTNZ said, hopefully they won't - but I would prepare your mind for the subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) religion, church, God references. This tactic is commonly used by believers to instill that sense of guilt, or at the very worst, try to get you thinking about the decision. 

 

They may see it as phase, so they'll do their best to get you out of said phase and back to God. Just be prepared for it and have your defenses ready to go. Hopefully it all works out. Good luck. 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Yep, as long as I don't bring up Hebrews 6, he should do just fine. (And he probably won't find it or think I'm that far gone. He just reads the psalms for devotions)

As for reasoning, being one here has helped, also listening to Matt Dillahunty because my god that man is quick and explains clearly. Also, what do you (all of you) think of RationalWiki?

I love both Dillahunty and RationalWiki.  Another good resource is Wiki.IronChariots.org .

[mymistake]

Yep, as long as I don't bring up Hebrews 6, he should do just fine. (And he probably won't find it or think I'm that far gone. He just reads the psalms for devotions)

As for reasoning, being one here has helped, also listening to Matt Dillahunty because my god that man is quick and explains clearly. Also, what do you (all of you) think of RationalWiki?

 

 

Well in light of that maybe you should go with a minimalist approach.  You are honest about it when they 

 

ask but if they don't want to talk about it then don't.  That is the way I usually handle it with my family.

[wyson]

FreeThinkerNZ - *sigh* You are correct. I am really trying to think more reasonably, but it's hard to counter two decades of being trained to do the opposite. Ebing emotionally invested in the topic doesn't help.

 

This just in: It seems that my grandfather found some of the books in my car which I've checked out from the library (biology, cosmology, history of religion which to my family means "atheist") so my Dad emailed me and asked me directly if I was an atheist. Not wishing to lie to him, I said yes, that I've been studying a lot and that I am no longer convinced the Bible is true, that was it. He responded that it was just a phase and that he had "all the same doubts when I was in my 20s but God used them to strengthen my faith." So that's a relief I guess.

I can still continue calmly and compassionately as you've advised.

That is awesome, especially if your Dad is going to be hands off and allow you to have your phase in peace. If questioned, place forth your questions about the internal contradictions honestly and in a deferential way as if seeking an answer. If the families answers are good, then you can discuss them. If they revert to pat Christian nonsense about faith, well you can calmly state that you find it hard to think that way now. Its all about "I" statements, about what you think rather than making universal judgements that will back them in a corner. "I feel skeptical and think a rational approach makes more sense here" rather than "look at that, its an obvious lie, a fiction". The first statement allows for their faith to remain true. The second statement is a universal judgement that will back them in a corner mostly likely lead to them defending their faith / escalation.

 

Be honest and respectful.

 

That's the best anyone can do at the end of the day.

[wyson]

 

wyson - Yes, I'm familiar with Carrier and that video in particular, it was already on my list to use. In regards to being honest, perhaps I don't have a good reason. Maybe I am just being emotional. The heart of the matter is that I realized I don't have any particularly good reason to believe any of it, no more so than believing in any other religion. I've looked at the major apologetics, for example I've read William Lane Craig's Reasonable Faith and found it utterly unconvincing and some of his arguments downright silly.

What study I have done is that the Bible is full of contradictions (ones that come to mind are Jesus' birth, death and resurrection accounts, the different depictions of Jesus in the diferent gospels, Judas' death, the different creation myths) and is not backed up well historically (The Exodus and pre-davidic Israel. I'm familiar with Carrier's work and think he makes a persuasive argument for a mythic Jesus, but even if there was a Jesus that doesn't make the gospels reliable), prophecies have clearly not come true, even within the Bible's own story (destruction of Tyre, Damascus, Egypt and Babylon, God promising to drive out all of the Canaanites and that no one would be able to resist Israel), its scientific claims are rubbish (the creation myths again, though I am aware that they have not always been taken literally, Noah and the flood). And even if these were not the case, I recognize that if I had not been brought up Christian and read the Bible now, I should react no differently than when I now read the Qur'an or Greek or Norse mythology.

Maybe that is a poor reason, but I didn't find all this stuff after I lost my faith, this is what made me lose faith.

 

 

 

I think you are doing fine.  Let's remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  The

 

appropriate response to an extraordinary claim is to ignore it until the level of evidence supporting it is as

 

compelling as the nature of the claim.  And Christianity is a very extraordinary claim.  Most of us were 

 

brainwashed into Christianity using underhanded tactics.  So we were conditioned to accept it on bad

 

evidence.  But when we step back and look with fresh eyes the weak arguments supporting Christianity

 

and the emptiness where the evidence was suppose to be speaks volumes.  So far Christianity had earned

 

only ridicule.  That is all it deserves.

Taking on this attitude with a fundie family is sure to earn some serious backlash. Its much better to be honest and respectful of their beliefs.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

wyson - Yes, I'm familiar with Carrier and that video in particular, it was already on my list to use. In regards to being honest, perhaps I don't have a good reason. Maybe I am just being emotional. The heart of the matter is that I realized I don't have any particularly good reason to believe any of it, no more so than believing in any other religion. I've looked at the major apologetics, for example I've read William Lane Craig's Reasonable Faith and found it utterly unconvincing and some of his arguments downright silly.

What study I have done is that the Bible is full of contradictions (ones that come to mind are Jesus' birth, death and resurrection accounts, the different depictions of Jesus in the diferent gospels, Judas' death, the different creation myths) and is not backed up well historically (The Exodus and pre-davidic Israel. I'm familiar with Carrier's work and think he makes a persuasive argument for a mythic Jesus, but even if there was a Jesus that doesn't make the gospels reliable), prophecies have clearly not come true, even within the Bible's own story (destruction of Tyre, Damascus, Egypt and Babylon, God promising to drive out all of the Canaanites and that no one would be able to resist Israel), its scientific claims are rubbish (the creation myths again, though I am aware that they have not always been taken literally, Noah and the flood). And even if these were not the case, I recognize that if I had not been brought up Christian and read the Bible now, I should react no differently than when I now read the Qur'an or Greek or Norse mythology.

Maybe that is a poor reason, but I didn't find all this stuff after I lost my faith, this is what made me lose faith.

 

 

I think you are doing fine.  Let's remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  The

 

appropriate response to an extraordinary claim is to ignore it until the level of evidence supporting it is as

 

compelling as the nature of the claim.  And Christianity is a very extraordinary claim.  Most of us were 

 

brainwashed into Christianity using underhanded tactics.  So we were conditioned to accept it on bad

 

evidence.  But when we step back and look with fresh eyes the weak arguments supporting Christianity

 

and the emptiness where the evidence was suppose to be speaks volumes.  So far Christianity had earned

 

only ridicule.  That is all it deserves.

Taking on this attitude with a fundie family is sure to earn some serious backlash. Its much better to be honest and respectful of their beliefs.

 

I think they were talking about the ridicule we have towards xianity in our minds and at ex-c where we can speak frankly.  I don't think he was suggesting it as a communication strategy with xians.

[qadeshet]

 

 

 

wyson - Yes, I'm familiar with Carrier and that video in particular, it was already on my list to use. In regards to being honest, perhaps I don't have a good reason. Maybe I am just being emotional. The heart of the matter is that I realized I don't have any particularly good reason to believe any of it, no more so than believing in any other religion. I've looked at the major apologetics, for example I've read William Lane Craig's Reasonable Faith and found it utterly unconvincing and some of his arguments downright silly.

What study I have done is that the Bible is full of contradictions (ones that come to mind are Jesus' birth, death and resurrection accounts, the different depictions of Jesus in the diferent gospels, Judas' death, the different creation myths) and is not backed up well historically (The Exodus and pre-davidic Israel. I'm familiar with Carrier's work and think he makes a persuasive argument for a mythic Jesus, but even if there was a Jesus that doesn't make the gospels reliable), prophecies have clearly not come true, even within the Bible's own story (destruction of Tyre, Damascus, Egypt and Babylon, God promising to drive out all of the Canaanites and that no one would be able to resist Israel), its scientific claims are rubbish (the creation myths again, though I am aware that they have not always been taken literally, Noah and the flood). And even if these were not the case, I recognize that if I had not been brought up Christian and read the Bible now, I should react no differently than when I now read the Qur'an or Greek or Norse mythology.

Maybe that is a poor reason, but I didn't find all this stuff after I lost my faith, this is what made me lose faith.

 

 

I think you are doing fine.  Let's remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  The

 

appropriate response to an extraordinary claim is to ignore it until the level of evidence supporting it is as

 

compelling as the nature of the claim.  And Christianity is a very extraordinary claim.  Most of us were 

 

brainwashed into Christianity using underhanded tactics.  So we were conditioned to accept it on bad

 

evidence.  But when we step back and look with fresh eyes the weak arguments supporting Christianity

 

and the emptiness where the evidence was suppose to be speaks volumes.  So far Christianity had earned

 

only ridicule.  That is all it deserves.

Taking on this attitude with a fundie family is sure to earn some serious backlash. Its much better to be honest and respectful of their beliefs.

 

I think they were talking about the ridicule we have towards xianity in our minds and at ex-c where we can speak frankly.  I don't think he was suggesting it as a communication strategy with xians.

 

 

Ridicule may be a better strategy against Believers than pointing out endless contradictions.

 

The power and Effectiveness of Good Ridicule

[00LukeMan]

Qadeshet - Possibly useful, but not within a family relationship like in this case.

 

Thank you everybody for listening to me and offering advice. I agree that the best course of action is probably to lay low and respond only to their questions. Hopefully this will make things easier.

[florduh]

I feel they deserve a more personal explanation.

 

Here's the thing........ nobody but you gives a shit about all your reasons and logical arguments. 

 

Just be nice and let them know you simply don't believe that stuff any longer. There will be questions, but there will be more questions and a continued grilling of the heretic if you actually put forth an argument. Your argument/explanation doesn't defend your position, it attacks theirs. 

 

BTW, your stance on the matter of religion needs no defense or explanation. You're an adult, right?

[qadeshet]

Qadeshet - Possibly useful, but not within a family relationship like in this case.

 

Thank you everybody for listening to me and offering advice. I agree that the best course of action is probably to lay low and respond only to their questions. Hopefully this will make things easier.

 

Not coming out to your family is probably the best option. You can vent here.

[mymistake]

 

Taking on this attitude with a fundie family is sure to earn some serious backlash. Its much better to be honest and respectful of their beliefs.

 

 

 

Thank you for pointing that out.  I didn't mean that one should actually ridicule the religion of your relatives.

 

I take the minimalist approach and tell my relatives nothing unless they ask.  The only time I talk about

 

Christianity is on ex-C and in the Lion's Den.  If I tried that in real life my relatives would declare war on me.

[wyson]

 

I feel they deserve a more personal explanation.

 

Here's the thing........ nobody but you gives a shit about all your reasons and logical arguments.

 

Just be nice and let them know you simply don't believe that stuff any longer. There will be questions, but there will be more questions and a continued grilling of the heretic if you actually put forth an argument. Your argument/explanation doesn't defend your position, it attacks theirs.

 

BTW, your stance on the matter of religion needs no defense or explanation. You're an adult, right?

Not strictly true as people here will care about your reasons and logical arguments but we know what you mean. hehe.

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

Totally understand where you are coming from. You love your family very much and you want to include them in your life. Just be prepared for some of them to reject you and cut ties with you. Religious people do these things to people they love, especially when they come out as atheists. To fundamental Christians, athiesm is synonymous with satanism or evil or sin. I just don't want you to go through all this trouble to write down your thoughts and carefully invite them into your world, only to have them break your heart. It hurts my heart to think about this happening to you. But you know your family better than we do and we understand that this is something you need to do. No matter what happens, we are here for you. We really do hope this goes well for you. Good luck.

[★ Citsonga ★]

There will be questions, but there will be more questions and a continued grilling of the heretic if you actually put forth an argument. Your argument/explanation doesn't defend your position, it attacks theirs.

 

I don't remember ever disagreeing with you before, but I have to here. How people respond to an argument depends on the people and the argument. There's no one-size-fits-all. I sent my parents a 49 page letter of explanation, and it served its purpose of explaining where I was coming from. It showed them that my loss of faith was not some whim or rebellion, but that I actually had reasons for my position. I explained in my letter that my purpose was not to attack them, but to simply show where I was coming from. They have not argued or bugged me at all about religion since they read the letter, but if I had not put forth a solid case for my position, then I guaran-fucking-tee you that they would've been pestering me about coming back to Jesus.