R. S. Martin Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 Outside conservative Mennonite circles, people don't care about each other. It's each for himself, dog eat dog. In big cities, neighbours don't know each other and won't help each other. Such is the kind of sermons I grew up with. As it does to all of us, misfortune sometimes strikes. It struck me a week ago when I fell on the steps, twisting one ankle and the other leg, so that I could barely get from my bed to the bathroom, let alone take out my dog. In desperation, I sent a plea for help to my atheist neighbours and within minutes they were at the door. Since then, people have come out of the woodwork--yes, right here in the big city--offering help with taking out and walking the dog, rides to the doctor and physio, shopping, etc. Some are fanatically religious, some moderately religious, some of unknown religious standing, some atheist--all for the purpose of helping a fellow human and her dog in time of need. It's this kind of thing that convinces me humans are naturally disposed to be helpful and kind to each other for its own sake, no matter what their belief or unbelief or where they live--whether in a rural area or the big city. Quite a few of these people I first met over the past five years when walking my dog and when flashing back on my early teaching I can only be amazed at how badly mistaken people were. It's as though the big bad world has turned friendly, or maybe there has never been a big bad world to begin with. What do you think? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene39 Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I think there never was a big bad world. There's always exceptions, but in varying degrees, most people do care. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yunea Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 It seems many Christians are saying that if it wasn't for Christianity, they'd be horrible people who don't give a damn about anything but their own short-term pleasure. That may be true all right, but in general, evolution has favoured those who care for others in their herd, because those herds survive attacks and disasters better. A basic level of it is built in most of us. Why so many xtians say it is not in them unless there is the reward of heaven or threat of hell may be another discussion... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 The big bad world is wherever you want to see it. Whether it's really there is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 In the decade or more that I'm living in the city I've noticed so many little things that people do for each other--for total strangers--just because it's the decent thing to do, like holding the door for someone for example, or telling the cashier when given too much change, or the reminding me when I left my umbrella behind--the list goes on. And at bus stops people are always willing to tell strangers when the next bus is due, or to ask, "Do you know when the bus is coming." It's true that some people like to be left alone, or that I don't feel comfortable talking to them, but I don't want to talk to everyone on the street but there's lots of friendly interaction, especially when there's a need. This last experience just capped my former observations and I'm glad to see others have come to similar conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 6, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2015 People being kind and helpful seems to be the norm. Obviously, there are some jerks out there in the big bad world, but there are some jerks in the churches, too. My observation is that the mix of behaviors and personality types have nothing to do with religion or lack of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 People being kind and helpful seems to be the norm. Obviously, there are some jerks out there in the big bad world, but there are some jerks in the churches, too. My observation is that the mix of behaviors and personality types have nothing to do with religion or lack of it. Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller2 Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I was very anxious about the world and defo sought solace and protection from it in christianity.Initially I found alot of kindness in the world and it was really good after deconversion.Over the years i have met alot of assholes in the world, however the assholes of the world seem to be so much easier to accept or process in my mind than the assholes of christianity.they are easier just to move on from but chrsitian assholes; their behavior really hurt. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 11, 2015 Author Share Posted July 11, 2015 I was very anxious about the world and defo sought solace and protection from it in christianity.Initially I found alot of kindness in the world and it was really good after deconversion.Over the years i have met alot of assholes in the world, however the assholes of the world seem to be so much easier to accept or process in my mind than the assholes of christianity.they are easier just to move on from but chrsitian assholes; their behavior really hurt. Angus, I find it very interesting that this was your experience, too. I figured in my case it hurt more because I was locked in a separate culture with my Christian community. "Out here" the society/community is so much larger, there is no "fence" around it, so that one can sort of (more or less) just ignore the hurtful person. In my old community, one had to figure out how to negotiate a lifelong journey in the same pen along with the hurtful person. But there's more to it, I think. In Christianity there is major emphasis on forgiving and forgetting, on loving your enemy. You're not allowed to feel hurt. Psychology teaches us that denying the hurt only drives it underground where it festers and does even more damage. Then when the hurt and damage get expressed or somehow come to light, the righteous brethren get to really preach.This preaching only intensifies an already very complicated emotional issue. Probably the preachers are emotionally damaged, too, given that everyone is trapped in the same pen with pitchforks and charging bulls with horns. All the more reason to just GET OUT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 It's this kind of thing that convinces me humans are naturally disposed to be helpful and kind to each other for its own sake, Isn't it strange that the bible tells us that mans heart thinks only of evil continually in genesis 6:5? Yet posts such as yours proves this a false statement. Humans by nature, when someone needs help, will, without any selfish thought, rush into a dangerous situation to help their fellow man. It seems to me, that man is naturally disposed to help others by doing good, not evil as the bible (which is inerrant truth ) leads us to believe. Sorry your having a tough time r.s. martin. I wish you a speedy recovery. -Catt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller2 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I was very anxious about the world and defo sought solace and protection from it in christianity.Initially I found alot of kindness in the world and it was really good after deconversion.Over the years i have met alot of assholes in the world, however the assholes of the world seem to be so much easier to accept or process in my mind than the assholes of christianity.they are easier just to move on from but chrsitian assholes; their behavior really hurt.Angus, I find it very interesting that this was your experience, too. I figured in my case it hurt more because I was locked in a separate culture with my Christian community. "Out here" the society/community is so much larger, there is no "fence" around it, so that one can sort of (more or less) just ignore the hurtful person. In my old community, one had to figure out how to negotiate a lifelong journey in the same pen along with the hurtful person. But there's more to it, I think. In Christianity there is major emphasis on forgiving and forgetting, on loving your enemy. You're not allowed to feel hurt. Psychology teaches us that denying the hurt only drives it underground where it festers and does even more damage. Then when the hurt and damage get expressed or somehow come to light, the righteous brethren get to really preach.This preaching only intensifies an already very complicated emotional issue. Probably the preachers are emotionally damaged, too, given that everyone is trapped in the same pen with pitchforks and charging bulls with horns. All the more reason to just GET OUT! For me I think it was the fact that this behaviour was so unnecessary and contrary to the biblical iidea.it was so avoidable.typically it would involve somone who never took the time to get to kno me coming along and dumping their opinion about me ....on me verbally.i was "too this" or "too that" with the implication that if I just change that I'd be fine or somthing.perhaps they thought this was their duty to help perfect me in my christian walk.what was shocking was it's crossing,uninvited,of normal social barriers.i found it quite commonplace and was prolific as a young man or later in christian healing retreats. On a more day to day level it was just plain bad manners.christians exchanging looks or smart joke/put downs.i don't tend to experience the latter in the world and never the former. What I also found strange was the lack of self disipline.we were supposed to control our tongues right? To be sober and self disipline? So why not just not say nasty or personal shit to each other. I was capable of that restraint.where it was well meaning but misguided "helping" I found these folk who wished my growth would bomb into my life,drop their opinion and b gone.theyd never stay around to assist their "brother" action these changes to become more Christlike.the effect was a form of personality bombing,very quick suprise bombing of words and then they were gone.never to return.yes I'm an introvert, yes I am sensitive and yes I'm a very private person ( often such words criticised these aspects ) however I consider such behavior crossed normal social boundaries in a destructive way and was a symptom of the general sickness in charismatic/evangelical Christianity that seeks to convert and heal thru special revealed knowledge of the victim.often it was incorrect or like a mediums cold reading: obvious to anyone and amounted to a basic critics of a person's lol "god given" character.contrary to the gospel indeed. I just don't tend to experience this in the world.its effect was shocking to the core in that it was so far below my expectations of how a christian probably ought to conduct themselves.i felt why not just live and let live. There was no way out of it was there?bbelief in god,christian platitudes and excuses about poor behavior and my own fear of apostasy and hell ( always a grey area with no answer if an ex christian could go there ) kept me in that system to be harangued again by this poor behavior. After 17 yrs this behavior snapped somthing in me.it was the constant lack of acceptance and below par standards and I began to walk away.shit in the world?just less hurtful as I hav no particular expectations of standards for my fellow man.if they are assholes:cool,I just accept it and avoid in future. I'm really sorry your experience was as consistently bad as mine.And just as bounded and locked in by the restraint chritianity places on the individual.bit like a jail.when I wrote my raving lol extimony some yrs back now on this site alot of people undestood all this.you and I are not alone . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 Angus, you help me understand why "the big bad world" is actually just a neutral place where normal human beings dwell because we really have no choice, given that this is the planet we were born on. Christians have to call it bad to keep members "in the fold." They have to demonize "outsiders" to make themselves look good. It's almost as though most people know they have to take responsibility for their actions but a certain brand of Christians think they can act as they like because Jesus/God will forgive them. Or maybe they are so bored (like my people who are denied pretty much everything the world has to offer to satisfy the senses and intellect) that all they can do is turn on each other. If the rest of reality means nothing, the only thing left to focus on is each other and how they live. But they get a high when they realize/believe they are exonerated by belief in Jesus. Yeah, it's beginning to make sense to me--in a sick way. The world is a pretty good place here where I am, though I am aware this is not the case for everywhere with food and water shortages, and dominations of violence. Except that's not what the Christians mean. Sick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller2 Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I think you hit the nail on the head about how christians being denied everything pleasurable and life giving that the world offers then turn inward and on each other...or that's what I too suspect happens.then they become toxic and it all starts.i think Christianity also so retards social and personality growth that a very toxic way of being develops which when linked to the bitterness and inner anger of not being able to enjoy the world just warps people.tho I was never a vicious son of a bitch I think I warped terrably in other ways. Another thread I suspect is that of the strong ,beautiful,powerful elite characters in any fellowship get so full of themselves and their own 'rightness' that they grow up completely ignorant of social norms and appropriate ways to behave. I once saw a christian book entitled "why christians shoot their wounded" .tho I never actually read it:it may be tripe,i thought the title was accurate.sensing any form of non conformity,woundedness,any form of an 'other' or strangeness it has to be shot down verbally and attacked or mocked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyson Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 It's this kind of thing that convinces me humans are naturally disposed to be helpful and kind to each other for its own sake, Isn't it strange that the bible tells us that mans heart thinks only of evil continually in genesis 6:5? Yet posts such as yours proves this a false statement. Humans by nature, when someone needs help, will, without any selfish thought, rush into a dangerous situation to help their fellow man. It seems to me, that man is naturally disposed to help others by doing good, not evil as the bible (which is inerrant truth ) leads us to believe. Sorry your having a tough time r.s. martin. I wish you a speedy recovery. -Catt Dont know what church you went to but in mine the Evil was disobedience to God and straying from his word. Its not about helping your neighbour per se. The Christian God that I was told about only had a secondary interest that you were nice to your fellow man. What he wants most of all is obedience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 It's this kind of thing that convinces me humans are naturally disposed to be helpful and kind to each other for its own sake, Isn't it strange that the bible tells us that mans heart thinks only of evil continually in genesis 6:5? Yet posts such as yours proves this a false statement. Humans by nature, when someone needs help, will, without any selfish thought, rush into a dangerous situation to help their fellow man. It seems to me, that man is naturally disposed to help others by doing good, not evil as the bible (which is inerrant truth ) leads us to believe. Sorry your having a tough time r.s. martin. I wish you a speedy recovery. -Catt Dont know what church you went to but in mine the Evil was disobedience to God and straying from his word. Its not about helping your neighbour per se. The Christian God that I was told about only had a secondary interest that you were nice to your fellow man. What he wants most of all is obedience. Somehow I missed Catt's post, probably due to not being able to sit long at the computer. I don't have any of those hand-held devices to access the internet. You express my thoughts exactly! To answer your question, Wyson, in my church, the selfishness and evilness of human nature was stressed to make us believe that we needed salvation. This was a key factor in my questioning God since childhood, i.e. it made no sense to me that Jesus' dying could get us to heaven. And later, when I was supposed to repent and be saved for baptism (my church believed in believer's baptism; we were expected to feel "convicted" of our guilty human nature in our mid to late teens and then apply for baptism) I could not figure out that anyone had actually sinned. I understood sin to be when a person intentionally did something wrong and I didn't know of anyone who did that. Nor did I believe anyone would because it just wasn't human nature so far as I could see. We (candidates for baptism) were told we don't understand everything now but we would get deeper insight when we got older. On that promise I accepted the teachings that I was a sinner in need of baptism and submitted to the vows required of me. But when I turned forty I realized I was now "older"--I was an age that everyone considered to be mature adult and capable of deep understanding like my mother and the bishop at the time of my baptism--but I had no better understanding of the plan of salvation and sin than I did at the age of seventeen. I did have a lot more life experience and had done major amounts of reading. I concluded that when people feel happy and fulfilled they are naturally pretty good well-meaning creatures. They shouldn't have lied to me. The evidence that they did lie just keeps piling up, as shown by this latest life experience. There is no big bad world of evil human nature out there to be saved and protected from by comfy little Christian communities. I'm quite sure that it was and remains a political ploy to get people into the church and stay there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolyGoat Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Honestly, i have seen more "big bad" in those very conservative, Mennonite circles than the world at large. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 I agree, CG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 Honestly, i have seen more "big bad" in those very conservative, Mennonite circles than the world at large. Okay now I can speak openly. My sister was cleaning in the room when I read and posted yesterday. I take it you're exMennonite, too? Yeah, pacifists have to find some way to express the aggressive side of their nature, don't they? I've been thinking a lot about the impact of history on the Mennonite psyche though I can't prove that any of my conjectures are true. I just wonder what it did to the evolution of Mennonite mentality to endure centuries of government persecution while at the same time believing that God would condemn them to hell if they uttered an oath of fealty or defended their home against invaders. Paul left a few outs when he said to heap coals of fire on the head of someone whose mind you wanted to change, or to shun or excommunicate them. In my opinion, these are the pacifist's psychological tools and Mennonites have perfected the skill of using them formally and informally. Since pacifists go to hell for getting into fisticuffs this was their only choice. That's how it looks to me at times. Don't know if I'm right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolyGoat Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Wow, interesting insight! I think you may be on to something there. Mennonites did spend a long time being very hated by the people around them, so I guess it would stand to reason that they would form such tight, and subsequently judgmental, circles. Luckily, I never had the displeasure of being a part of such a community myself, but I have spent a while living in BC and Alberta, where there are LOTS of Mennonites. Lots of my friends were Mennonite and the university I went to was quite linked to the Mennonite Brethren. My wife even grew up in the Mennonite church (but DO NOT make the mistake of calling her a Menno ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted July 20, 2015 Author Share Posted July 20, 2015 Okay, I won't. Lots of ex-Mennonites feel that way. People who fit in find it a nice comfy community. But if you cannot fit in for whatever reason...Conformity is the name of the game where I come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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