Universe With The Lid Off

[Llwellyn]

As someone who has deconverted you can now breath freely in a universe with the lid off.  What about you -- have you taken the lid off of your universe?

 

The universe is an open, pluralistic place.  In fact, it is not a universe, so much as a multiverse.  Things are with one another in many ways, but nothing includes everything, or dominates over everything. The word and trails along after every sentence.  and...and...and...  The word but trails along after every paragraph.  Something always escapes.  As John Dewey stated, it is a "wide open universe, a universe without bounds in time or space, without final limits of origin or destiny, a universe with the lid off."  A pluralistic universe is a universe of chance and freedom.  In this universe, logic is our proven method.  Humans have created values -- all values known to us are created by us.  Although we infer that we have not created certain aspects of our environment, we have created all of the thoughts and words about the environment.  We wrote the Bible and the Quran.  We imagined the Platonic "Form of the Good."

 

Christianity, Islam, Platonism, Deism and any kind of monotheism puts the "lid" onto the universe.  The "one God" who has a single vision concerning truth and who has a single judgment about good is the lid that monotheists place on top of the universe.  Monotheism says that there is a single narrative -- a single story about the beginnings and ends of all things.  As Gore Vidal put it, "the great unmentionable evil at the center of our culture is monotheism."  Romans 1 says that all humans know that the universe is capped with a lid:  "They knew God."  Romans 1:21.  Although I don't claim to be wise, I say that all humans know that the universe is not capped with a lid.  We wrongly put the lid on the universe, and we have taken it off.  And if Yahweh exists and has a problem with that, he may bless me if he will be so bold.

 

[Llwellyn]

Since our best test of truth is our ability to draw others into our way of thinking, it seems like this thread's experiment has been pretty much a failure.  Maybe I should try some different tack later?  Any suggestions for a different method?

[wellnamed]

I'm a big fan of the idea of pluralism as an (almost?) metaphysically fundamental truth. I enjoyed your thoughts. I might push back a bit on "logic is our proven method", but it depends on how narrow a definition of "logic" is employed. It's sort of like the adventures of Spock the half-human vulcan. Rational epistemology is indeed a proven method and the best one for approaching many problems, but "being human" in the fullest sense may involve more than just rational knowledge, even if it should exclude explicitly irrational ideology.

 

Re: experimentation. I think it may just be that most people aren't as interested in this sort of abstract philosophizing? I could be wrong

[Guest Furball]

Since our best test of truth is our ability to draw others into our way of thinking, it seems like this thread's experiment has been pretty much a failure.  Maybe I should try some different tack later?  Any suggestions for a different method?

I don't think this thread is a failure. At present count, over 135 people have viewed it. I have noticed since i have joined this site that you have a very unique way of seeing things. Don't read anything into it. There have been a few topics that i started where i poured my heart into it and put a lot of thought and effort into it and it only got like 4 views and then disappeared into post eternity. I do agree that removing the god/religion lid off does open up the universe and all its wonders and possibilities to us. It also works here on earth and our seeking of things here closer to home. Remove the god lid, and a whole bunch of new possibilities opens up to us. Now that we know that the truth of scripture is not true at all, we can continue to seek out truths without having to stop at the line drawn in the sand by religion. 

 

P.S. You made a quote a long time ago that people, while sleeping are atheists, that's why when they wake up they have to have a morning bible study to re-doctrinate themselves. I have kept that nugget of wisdom with me to this day. -peace

[Llwellyn]

Thanks for the comments, guys.  I've often thought that I really owe it to the rest of you to comment on as many threads as I can, because you also want to encounter the thoughts of other people.  I've never really been interested in blogging, because it is really the back-and-forth dialogue of a thread which is more stimulating to me.  If there is no god, it will be because there is no god for us together.  I'm not sure if that community standard of verification is consistent with my commitment to pluralism.  We establish belief, not in the individual merely, but in the community.  "The opinion which is fated to be ultimately agreed to by all who investigate, is what we mean by the truth, and the object represented in this opinion is the real."  Charles Peirce.

[dichotomy]

I wasn't sure what to add to the thread really.

 

There's always tension between the individual and community/society, whatever your beliefs or worldview. Removing christianity is just one of many many layers.

 

I have tried very hard not to replace my preexisting god and beliefs with a similar structured, mono- system. I think my husband is more inclined to replace one certainty with another, he appears to need "truth" and "fact" an awful lot more than me. I like to play around with ideas and enjoy the reality that I have very little idea of what is, what was and what will be. I do not believe in absolutes and find it easier to accept that there is no definite in life other than what I decide on and make for myself, which are subject to change at any point.

 

One of the most negative aspects of christianity for me was the concept of "purpose" that we are all born with a purpose, destiny and achievable goal. Despite knowing this is bullshit I find it difficult to shake off.

 

No idea if any of that is relevant to your initial post!

[disillusioned]

Llwellyn, I really appreciate what you've expressed in this thread. I think I agree with you, more or less.

 

We've had discussions before about the nature of truth. Recently I've been of the mind that "truth" is a somewhat misleading concept. When I say that a statement is true, what I mean is that it is provable. Logic is, as you say, our method. When I say "x is true", you can say "how do you know that?" and it then falls upon me to convince you. Everyone plays by these rules most of the time, whether they recognize it consciously or not.

 

For some reason though, adherents of monotheistic religions apply one set of rules (that expressed above) to most things, but a completely different set to others. They claim to know the will of God. They claim, in other words, to have access to special knowledge which is "true" but not provable. Rational people generally hold that statements such as these may either be assumed or rejected. Moreover, if they are assumed and we later find that they lead to contradictions, then we should rethink their assumption. But monotheists do not play by these rules. Their assumptions are not assumptions in their minds; they are the will of God. I think you're right that this is, at least in some sense, to put a "lid" on the universe.

[Llwellyn]

One of the most negative aspects of christianity for me was the concept of "purpose" that we are all born with a purpose, destiny and achievable goal. Despite knowing this is bullshit I find it difficult to shake off.

 

I find that artwork illustrating an achievement of independence inspires me also to intelligently develop my own special ideals.  I'd like to think that I'm not simply replacing one kind of imitation with another, but instead drawing courage to find out what "my way" is after seeing them express "their way."  Monotheism is extremely hostile to the idea of values development.  All kinds of maledictions are called down upon people who would reconstruct the values which have grown too narrow for the actual case.  "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil!"  Isaiah 5:20.  Likewise, the Platonist C.S. Lewis said "a philosophy which does not accept value as eternal and objective can lead us only to ruin."  Against all these warnings, I think that we need to offer each other the spirit of courage!

 

I remember in my Christian high school, a Friday morning chapel speaker gave a talk about the difference between Christian living (which leads to life) and secular living (which leads to death).  She played a song to illustrate "rebellious mentality" which I didn't pay much attention to at the time, but I remembered the name and the artist.  Now as an adult, I find it very inspiring.  Frank Sinatra:  "I Did it My Way":

 

"And now, the end is near;  and so I face the final curtain.  My friend, I'll say it clear, I'll state my case, of which I'm certain.  I've lived a life that's full.  I've traveled each and every highway; and more, much more than this, I did it my way.  Regrets, I've had a few; but then again, too few to mention.  I did what I had to do and saw it through without exemption.  I planned each charted course;  each careful step along the byway, and more, much more than this,  I did it my way.  Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew when I bit off more than I could chew.  But through it all, when there was doubt, I ate it up and spit it out.  I faced it all and I stood tall; and did it my way.  I've loved, I've laughed and cried.  I've had my fill; my share of losing.  And now, as tears subside, I find it all so amusing.  To think I did all that; and may I say - not in a shy way, oh no, oh no not me, "I did it my way".  For what is a man, what has he got?  If not himself, then he has naught.  To say the things he truly feels; and not the words of one who kneels.  The record shows I took the blows - and did it my way!"

 

[dichotomy]

We've had discussions before about the nature of truth. Recently I've been of the mind that "truth" is a somewhat misleading concept. When I say that a statement is true, what I mean is that it is provable. Logic is, as you say, our method. When I say "x is true", you can say "how do you know that?" and it then falls upon me to convince you. Everyone plays by these rules most of the time, whether they recognize it consciously or not.

 

For some reason though, adherents of monotheistic religions apply one set of rules (that expressed above) to most things, but a completely different set to others. They claim to know the will of God. They claim, in other words, to have access to special knowledge which is "true" but not provable. Rational people generally hold that statements such as these may either be assumed or rejected. Moreover, if they are assumed and we later find that they lead to contradictions, then we should rethink their assumption. But monotheists do not play by these rules. Their assumptions are not assumptions in their minds; they are the will of God. I think you're right that this is, at least in some sense, to put a "lid" on the universe.

 

 

Now that I've read this I realise this is what has bothered me about the concept of truth. I hadn't really thought it through like you've expressed, but was thinking along those lines, just not gathered the thoughts properly. 

I tend not to think in terms of truth anymore because it is so subjective, *and* people can believe something wholeheartedly, they can recollect things and give "evidence" and yet be completely wrong. Cognitive dissonance fascinates me.

 

 

One of the most negative aspects of christianity for me was the concept of "purpose" that we are all born with a purpose, destiny and achievable goal. Despite knowing this is bullshit I find it difficult to shake off.

 

I find that artwork illustrating an achievement of independence inspires me also to intelligently develop my own special ideals.  I'd like to think that I'm not simply replacing one kind of imitation with another, but instead drawing courage to find out what "my way" is after seeing them express "their way."  Monotheism is extremely hostile to the idea of values development.  All kinds of maledictions are called down upon people who would reconstruct the values which have grown too narrow for the actual case.  "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil!"  Isaiah 5:20.  Likewise, the Platonist C.S. Lewis said "a philosophy which does not accept value as eternal and objective can lead us only to ruin."  Against all these warnings, I think that we need to offer each other the spirit of courage!

 

I remember in my Christian high school, a Friday morning chapel speaker gave a talk about the difference between Christian living (which leads to life) and secular living (which leads to death).  She played a song to illustrate "rebellious mentality" which I didn't pay much attention to at the time, but I remembered the name and the artist.  Now as an adult, I find it very inspiring.  Frank Sinatra:  "I Did it My Way":

 

The very thing that drew the line under my loss of faith was the realisation that what I believe, what I see as truth, reality, value, morals, whatever, is purely of my own making (with my background, life experiences and educational influences of course) but ultimately, what I think, do and feel is nothing more than my subjective take on life. So I am indeed attempting to do things "my" way. I find that living according to ones principles and philosophical thinking is often hindered by learned behaviour however!