Ex-christian Revists An Issue Of A Sinless Heaven W/ Free Will

[StandingRoomOnly]

First, I am an ex-Christian. I occationally go into christianforums.com to see what the debates are about. I came across an interesting topic on "free will in heaven"...and the poster mentioned something that I had not thought of myself when I was trying to reconcile a "sinless heaven with free will" during my deconversion. Even though it can never prove the existance of a heaven, the idea behind what the poster was saying was interesting. I wasn't able to post my response because you have to have over 100 posts to respond in the debate forums.

 

Here's what the poster wrote:

 

Free Choice in Heaven mingled with Utilitarianism

 

 

That's what this is about.

 

Ok so I thought of this argument while washing my hair this morning. Maybe it was the Herbal Essences, so I suggest you all give that brand a try.

 

First I'll touch, for a moment, on Utilitarianism and how nowaday's it's often argued as more than a philosophy, but as an inevitability -- as a state of man. We naturally make decisions based on our own interest -- this is unavoidable. We may make stupid decisions, but this is either out of rebellion, stupidity, confusion, or what have you. Either way, our decisions are largely driven by our own interest. We simply don't choose to do something because it hurts us -- unless this very pain somehow benefits us. If there is absolutely no benefit for us or for another (also benefiting us) in an action then we will, most likely, not do it. Am I making sense? This is Utilitarianism, somewhat pragmatic, hedonistic in a way...what have you. Does this mean, then, that we do not have free choice? Do we not have the capacity to choose? Are we not human? Certainly this equation is false. Just because we have no desire to choose something that will bring about ultimate bad things for us does not mean that we don't have free choice.

 

Ok so I think heaven, or paradise is kindof like this. No sin in heaven. Ok. So then people say that there is no free will in heaven. To quote Paul: Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

If in heaven we will know God as we are fully known and his ways and his statutes then will we not follow them? The laws of God have been given to men for the glory of God, yes, but also because they are efficacious to living. The ways that God has established are ways that bring prosperity. He knows us and commands what is good for us. If we are, indeed, pragmatists and utilitarians then do we not act in our own best interest? Ah, but perhaps our minds are clouded and confused as to what exactly is our own best interest. If in heaven we have full knowledge, then we will know what is good and pleasing and what brings joy and not suffering. If we have no desire to act in a way that will harm us then do we not have free will? I don't think that's the case.

 

 

 

My response that I couldn't post:

 

Hmmm. The first assumption here is that there is free will in heaven. If there is free will in heaven, people in heaven can make choices.

 

On earth, we have the ability to make many choices. Oftentimes these choices are made with OUR best interest at heart. Even when a choice is in our best interest--it may end up causing someone else pain. So our knowledge is limited on earth--about the consequences of our choices and how they may affect others.

 

If in heaven, as you assume, we have unlimited knowledge... Should we not be able to predtict/know how our decisions will affect everyone around us? In that sense, people in heaven should be ABLE to make the "right" decisions all the time--the decision that will do the most good for themself and the others around them.

 

If you knew you were going to make a decision that would hurt the person you loved the most here on earth--you most likely would not make that decision. ...Therefore, let's assume that everyone is close is heaven--everyone loves each other. If everyone loves each other, you are looking out for each other and will always try to make the best decision with the knowledge you have (which apparently is unlimited). So...the idea of "sinning" or doing something to hurt yourself, those around you, or god (in heaven) would be minimized because of your LOVE for everyone and unlimited knowledge of the consequences of your actions.

 

But with this we are still assuming we somehow have this perfect LOVE for everyone in heaven and have free will. The idea of a heaven with free will & without sin doesn't seem that far off---though I would still say the possibility of "sin" would always HAVE to be there if there is freewill.

[webmdave]

To me this entire topic is analogous to asking, "If Napoleon had the atomic bomb, then...?" or "If Santa knew Rudolph's nose was about to fail from blinking then..."

 

Free-will in heaven, unlimited knowledge in heaven, love in heaven, heaven itself, all of these things are mere fantasy...pretending. Every ingredient in the discussion is built on unverifiable assumptions loosely inferred from a religious document crafted and promulgated by ignorant Bronze Age men.

[Metroplex]

Lucifer was the wisest of angels, yet he sinned.

Can we do any better than him?

The problem is that evil already existed in heaven apart of lucifer, the fact that he had a 'wrong' thought means that we won't fare any better in heaven... either that, of it was all a setup for God to show his love for us, yada, yada....

[MQTA]

Lucifer was the wisest of angels, yet he sinned.

Can we do any better than him?

The problem is that evil already existed in heaven apart of lucifer, the fact that he had a 'wrong' thought means that we won't fare any better in heaven... either that, of it was all a setup for God to show his love for us, yada, yada....

 

What if Satan and Lucifer were of the Elohim. This is a page from the ebook, regardless of the author, the texts seem to make a whole lot more sense with this scenario.

 

 

 

oh, that page ends with 'and'... so here's the next page.

[thunderbolt]

Revelation 22:16 inadvertently confirms this when Jesus is called the “morning star.” In the OT it’s ascribed once in Isaiah 14:12 and translated as Lucifer. No other person in the OT as far as I can see it assigned this title, so it only seems logical that the writer of Revelation had this in mind, given that the book itself consists largely of quotations from the OT. It’s not a very original book at all. Can you say cut-and-paste.

 

Interesting read that!

[SkepticOfBible]

What if Satan and Lucifer were of the Elohim.

 

There is no such thing as a Elohim. Elohim is not PLURAL

 

This is a page from the ebook, regardless of the author, the texts seem to make a whole lot more sense with this scenario.

 

Excuse me MQTA. Did you follow the debate in the colloseum

 

 

Where does it say in the OT that Satan rebelled or was kicked out?

 

Satan is never refer to Lucifer in the OT.

 

Lucifer is the taunt for the King Of Babylon. So was the king of Babylon studying the group of Synthethic men?????

 

Obviously this Ra-el guy is a idiot and has never read the bible. He writes great fiction though. He was a journalist right!!!1