Free Will Is Not Biblical!

[Guest end3]

Not sure what your point is Prof.

 

Hitler had a plan to create error-free humanity?

 

We shouldn't believe in God because of the evil deeds of humanity?

 

We should take a Godless, more rational approach?

[florduh]

Can we reference Vikings rather than Hitler for a little change of pace? I like Vikings and so does end3.

[Guest end3]

Can we reference Vikings rather than Hitler for a little change of pace? I like Vikings and so does end3.

I guess END3 will like Vikings for now, but I thought it was pertinent given the death camp discussion. You hear that Prof, you have to like Vikings.

[mymistake]

 

We shouldn't believe in God because of the evil deeds of humanity?

 

 

No.  You shouldn't believe in God because there is no empirical evidence that God exists but plenty of empirical evidence that scam artists use the idea of God to manipulate others.

[bornagainathiest]

Not sure what your point is Prof.

 

Hitler had a plan to create error-free humanity?

 

We shouldn't believe in God because of the evil deeds of humanity?

 

How about, we shouldn't put our faith in God because he creates some people only as hell fodder and requires us to NOT to call that an evil deed?

 

No temporary and limited human evil can compare with the predetermined, unlimited and eternal evil of such a God Monster.

 

We should take a Godless, more rational approach?

 

If need be.

[bornagainathiest]

*chuckles sardonically*

 

Guess what Prof..?

 

I've only been waiting 17 days (not 70!) for Ironhorse to take up my challenge..!

 

Posted 03 October 2015 - 01:03 PM

ironhorse, on 03 Oct 2015 - 6:23 PM, said:

BAA,  

 

Any explanation or reply I have posted here, you have never agreed with.

 

Firstly Ironhorse, I formally challenge you to justify and make good on the above assertion.  

 

It's your assertion, so the burden of proof falls on you to clearly demonstrate that, 'any explanation or reply that you have posted here you have never agreed with'.

If you can't do that, then I consider your assertion to unsupported by evidence.

Unsupported assertions can be summarily dismissed.

 

I could assert that you are nineteen (19) feet tall.

But if I can produce no corroborating evidence to that effect, then you are entirely justified in dismissing my assertion.

In the same way, unless you can produce corroborating evidence to support the assertion you've made about me, then I can simply dismiss it.

 

So, justify and corroborate or or I shall dismiss your assertion as unsupported by evidence.

 

So far... zip!

 

I wonder if he'll respond by Dec 12...which will 70 days from when I threw down the gauntlet..?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

You know, BAA, I just noticed the date-stamp on the Auschwitz post.  It was back in August... of 2014.

[mymistake]

I'm thinking you will never get your answer.

 

 

Edit:

I've been wrong before and I will be again.

[bornagainathiest]

You know, BAA, I just noticed the date-stamp on the Auschwitz post.  It was back in August... of 2014.

 

Unholy shit!

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Not sure what your point is Prof.

 

Hitler had a plan to create error-free humanity?

 

We shouldn't believe in God because of the evil deeds of humanity?

 

We should take a Godless, more rational approach?

Well, obviously, the point is that TinPony has difficulty in responding to tough questions in a timely manner.  In this case, we have been waiting (some even with bated breath) for well over a year for him to respond.

 

Ironically, in your response, you posed a series of questions yourself, which I assume you genuinely did want answers to.  It is interesting to note that within two hours you already had a few thoughtful responses.  This is telling because it illustrates one of the main differences between people who know and people who believe.

 

Or, rather, to put it into terms you're more likely to understand, it illustrates one of the main differences between people who think objectively and people who are content to merely believe subjectively.

[ironhorse]

TheRedneckProfessor, on 11 Aug 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

 

Ironhorse, I know you typically either ignore or dodge the questions I pose to you, but I really want you to answer these, if you would.

Have you ever been to Auschwitz? 

Have you ever seen the crematoria up close?  Or been inside the gas chamber?

Have you walked under the archway that says "ARBEIT MACHT FREI"?  Or through the gate of doom at Auschwitz II (Birkenau)?  Have you seen the inside of a typical barrack?

Have you ever watched as a crowd of Jewish school children learned of the fates of many of their own relatives while looking at the barbed-wire?

Have you ever seen the inside of the hospital ward in Auschwitz, where painful medical experiments were conducted on human beings as though they were lab rats?  Have you ever seen the main gallows, or the death wall, where innocent people were shot in cold blood?

Have you seen the empty cannisters of Zyklon B on display?  Or the prayer cloths?  Or the piles of shoes, eyeglasses, suitcases, teeth--each of which represents the life stolen from a real, breathing, fearful human being?

Has your heart ever shattered as your eye fell upon a shoe that would have fit your own child, realizing that some other father, just like yourself, bought that shoe for his child, just as you had so often done?

I have seen and done all of these things and I can and will answer your "query".

"In Auschwitz, where was god?"  god was not in Auschwitz.  god has never been anywhere near Auschwitz.

"Where was man?"  Man was in Auschwitz.  Man created Auschwitz and Man destroyed in Auschwitz.  Ultimately, Man liberatedAuschwitz.  Yes, Man has incredible potential, both for evil and for good.

But god, simply watches and allows the sun to shine upon both the righteous and the wicked.

Worship him if you will; but until he proves himself worthy of it, I will not.

 

 

My answer is no to all your questions I have never visited Auschwitz. I assume by your statements you have been there.

I'm sure it is a horrific site to see. I have friends who have been there. I have read books and see the photos.

 

 

You say God simply watches. What would you have God do about evil to earn your respect?

[Guest end3]

 

Not sure what your point is Prof.

 

Hitler had a plan to create error-free humanity?

 

We shouldn't believe in God because of the evil deeds of humanity?

 

We should take a Godless, more rational approach?

Well, obviously, the point is that TinPony has difficulty in responding to tough questions in a timely manner.  In this case, we have been waiting (some even with bated breath) for well over a year for him to respond.

 

Ironically, in your response, you posed a series of questions yourself, which I assume you genuinely did want answers to.  It is interesting to note that within two hours you already had a few thoughtful responses.  This is telling because it illustrates one of the main differences between people who know and people who believe.

 

Or, rather, to put it into terms you're more likely to understand, it illustrates one of the main differences between people who think objectively and people who are content to merely believe subjectively.

 

I have noticed your hiatus from the site here only to return. Long story short, I have surmised you get periodically angered at the God scenario. Not sure that's a valid reason to choose to move forward without faith. I can, however, see that it might be a "I have given it my all and it will never return" thing. I've always viewed faith in those times as a matter of practice rather than something given. But, grieving comes in waves from my experience. Carry on. Good to see you.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Not sure what your point is Prof.

 

Hitler had a plan to create error-free humanity?

 

We shouldn't believe in God because of the evil deeds of humanity?

 

We should take a Godless, more rational approach?

Well, obviously, the point is that TinPony has difficulty in responding to tough questions in a timely manner.  In this case, we have been waiting (some even with bated breath) for well over a year for him to respond.

 

Ironically, in your response, you posed a series of questions yourself, which I assume you genuinely did want answers to.  It is interesting to note that within two hours you already had a few thoughtful responses.  This is telling because it illustrates one of the main differences between people who know and people who believe.

 

Or, rather, to put it into terms you're more likely to understand, it illustrates one of the main differences between people who think objectively and people who are content to merely believe subjectively.

 

I have noticed your hiatus from the site here only to return. Long story short, I have surmised you get periodically angered at the God scenario. Not sure that's a valid reason to choose to move forward without faith. I can, however, see that it might be a "I have given it my all and it will never return" thing. I've always viewed faith in those times as a matter of practice rather than something given. But, grieving comes in waves from my experience. Carry on. Good to see you.

 

I think you might be projecting.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

TheRedneckProfessor, on 11 Aug 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

 

Ironhorse, I know you typically either ignore or dodge the questions I pose to you, but I really want you to answer these, if you would.

Have you ever been to Auschwitz? 

 

Have you ever seen the crematoria up close?  Or been inside the gas chamber?

 

Have you walked under the archway that says "ARBEIT MACHT FREI"?  Or through the gate of doom at Auschwitz II (Birkenau)?  Have you seen the inside of a typical barrack?

 

Have you ever watched as a crowd of Jewish school children learned of the fates of many of their own relatives while looking at the barbed-wire?

 

Have you ever seen the inside of the hospital ward in Auschwitz, where painful medical experiments were conducted on human beings as though they were lab rats?  Have you ever seen the main gallows, or the death wall, where innocent people were shot in cold blood?

 

Have you seen the empty cannisters of Zyklon B on display?  Or the prayer cloths?  Or the piles of shoes, eyeglasses, suitcases, teeth--each of which represents the life stolen from a real, breathing, fearful human being?

 

Has your heart ever shattered as your eye fell upon a shoe that would have fit your own child, realizing that some other father, just like yourself, bought that shoe for his child, just as you had so often done?

 

I have seen and done all of these things and I can and will answer your "query".

 

"In Auschwitz, where was god?"  god was not in Auschwitz.  god has never been anywhere near Auschwitz.

 

"Where was man?"  Man was in Auschwitz.  Man created Auschwitz and Man destroyed in Auschwitz.  Ultimately, Man liberatedAuschwitz.  Yes, Man has incredible potential, both for evil and for good.

 

But god, simply watches and allows the sun to shine upon both the righteous and the wicked.

 

Worship him if you will; but until he proves himself worthy of it, I will not.

 

 

My answer is no to all your questions I have never visited Auschwitz. I assume by your statements you have been there.

I'm sure it is a horrific site to see. I have friends who have been there. I have read books and see the photos.

 

 

You say God simply watches. What would you have God do about evil to earn your respect?

As I have pointed out before, many times, since god never does actually do anything, there is, quite literally, nothing he can do to earn my respect.

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

Not sure what your point is Prof.

 

Hitler had a plan to create error-free humanity?

 

We shouldn't believe in God because of the evil deeds of humanity?

 

We should take a Godless, more rational approach?

Well, obviously, the point is that TinPony has difficulty in responding to tough questions in a timely manner.  In this case, we have been waiting (some even with bated breath) for well over a year for him to respond.

 

Ironically, in your response, you posed a series of questions yourself, which I assume you genuinely did want answers to.  It is interesting to note that within two hours you already had a few thoughtful responses.  This is telling because it illustrates one of the main differences between people who know and people who believe.

 

Or, rather, to put it into terms you're more likely to understand, it illustrates one of the main differences between people who think objectively and people who are content to merely believe subjectively.

 

I have noticed your hiatus from the site here only to return. Long story short, I have surmised you get periodically angered at the God scenario. Not sure that's a valid reason to choose to move forward without faith. I can, however, see that it might be a "I have given it my all and it will never return" thing. I've always viewed faith in those times as a matter of practice rather than something given. But, grieving comes in waves from my experience. Carry on. Good to see you.

 

I think you might be projecting.

 

I wouldn't have attempted to describe your actions if I thought I were projecting. You are free just to say, nope, you missed the assessment end. Just saying your posts sound angry. If you let it out, it splatters, but then it's done for a bit.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Nope, you missed the assessment, End3.  And I still think you might be projecting.

[Guest end3]

Nope, you missed the assessment, End3.  And I still think you might be projecting.

Nope, you missed your assessment.

[katsteevns]

Excellent article!!!!!!!

[ironhorse]

“If God were to remove all evil from our world (but somehow leave human beings on the planet), it would mean that the essence of 'humanness' would be destroyed. We would become robots.

 

Let me explain what I mean by this. If God eliminated evil by programming us to perform only good acts, we would lose this distinguishing mark - the ability to make choices. We would no longer be free moral agents. We would be reduced to the status of robots.

 

Let's take this a step further. Robots do not love. God created us with the capacity to love. Love is based upon one's right to choose to love. We cannot force others to love us. We can make them serve us or obey us. But true love is founded upon one's freedom to choose to respond.”

 

~ Billy Graham

[mymistake]

“If God were to remove all evil from our world (but somehow leave human beings on the planet), it would mean that the essence of 'humanness' would be destroyed. We would become robots.

 

Let me explain what I mean by this. If God eliminated evil by programming us to perform only good acts, we would lose this distinguishing mark - the ability to make choices. We would no longer be free moral agents. We would be reduced to the status of robots.

 

Let's take this a step further. Robots do not love. God created us with the capacity to love. Love is based upon one's right to choose to love. We cannot force others to love us. We can make them serve us or obey us. But true love is founded upon one's freedom to choose to respond.”

 

~ Billy Graham

 

 

So now I am arguing aginst Billy Graham?  Okay.  Billy, that is stupid.  If God turned us all into robots then we wouldn't know the difference and we wouldn't have to burn for all eternity in hell.  It would literally be infinitely better for most humans.  God is a monster for giving us free will and then punishing us for using that free will.  Your religion is stupid.

[sdelsolray]

Let's deconstruct Billy Bob Graham's claims.

 

 

“If God were to remove all evil from our world (but somehow leave human beings on the planet), it would mean that the essence of 'humanness' would be destroyed.

...

 

Evil is the essence of 'humanness".  How profound.  Taken right from his religious dogma (all humans are bad).  Of course, he failed to look up the definition of "humanness' and apply it with integrity and intellectual honesty.  This mere assertion is sophomoric attempt to set up a.... (wait for it.......)....

 

...

We would become robots.

...

 

A strawman.  Yeah, let's pretend humans would be robots so we can instill fear into the gullible (reminds me of a 1950's B-rated sci-fi movie).  Next we can attack the robot.  That'll work.

 

Let me explain what I mean by this. If God eliminated evil by programming us to perform only good acts, we would lose this distinguishing mark - the ability to make choices. We would no longer be free moral agents. 

...

 

Sure, please explain.  Let's assert that choosing means only choosing between good and evil.  It doesn't mean choosing between two good acts, or discriminating between two good acts (i.e., which is better) or choosing between acts or events that are neither good or evil.  No, it has to mean only choosing between good and evil.  Nothing else counts in Billy Bob's story.  Of course, the evidence reveals that this is all humans do when choosing.  Not.  Next, let's project that nonsense onto the buzz phrase "free moral agents".  That will certainly impress the sheep.  Yeah, if evil is eliminated, then humans cannot be free, or moral, or ethical, of make choices, or agents, and probably won't be able to eat, drink, sleep, make love or go to the bathroom.  It's the end of the world I tell 'ya!

 

So, humans would become....(again, wait for it....)...

 

...

We would be reduced to the status of robots.

...

 

Repeat the strawman.  Classic.  Robots bad.  God good.

 

...

Let's take this a step further. Robots do not love. God created us with the capacity to love. Love is based upon one's right to choose to love. We cannot force others to love us. We can make them serve us or obey us. But true love is founded upon one's freedom to choose to respond.”

 

~ Billy Graham

 

Time to shoot down the strawman and let's add another side salad of fear mongering and finish it off with a bait and switch.  Let's merely assert that robots can't love (after all, we already got away with asserting that robots can't choose).  If evil is taken away, then humans can't love (bait and switch).  And let's ignore biology and psychology...that sciency stuff comes from the Devil.

[duderonomy]

Ironhorse, if you don't read sdelsolray's post until you understand the counter argument he is making, then please don't ever tell us again that you have been or are free to examine all sides of anything, and that you know what critical thinking is, unless you don't mind if we start treating you like you are disingenuous or just aren't serious about representing your faith.

 

Critical thinking would be you understanding (even if you don't like it or agree with it) his side of the argument, and proof of that would be you explaining in your own words (or those the Holy Spirit promised to give you when needed) why he is wrong about his assessment of Mr. Graham's argument.

 

Truth has nothing to fear, right?

[Ravenstar]

I am good without god... how do christians explain that? I am a much BETTER person than I was as a christian... how does that work?

 

I don't need to bring up the Nazi's or Edi Amin, or Bosnia... just one little life. I will go so far to say I am a better person than most christians I have met. I have free will (if that's even a thing) I make choices daily on what kind of person I wish to be in any given circumstance... and I work hard at being better today than I was yesterday.

 

I'm also a lot happier and peaceful.

[mwc]

“If God were to remove all evil from our world (but somehow leave human beings on the planet), it would mean that the essence of 'humanness' would be destroyed. We would become robots.

 

Let me explain what I mean by this. If God eliminated evil by programming us to perform only good acts, we would lose this distinguishing mark - the ability to make choices. We would no longer be free moral agents. We would be reduced to the status of robots.

 

Let's take this a step further. Robots do not love. God created us with the capacity to love. Love is based upon one's right to choose to love. We cannot force others to love us. We can make them serve us or obey us. But true love is founded upon one's freedom to choose to respond.”

 

~ Billy Graham

     Billy Graham says that Adam and Eve were robots.  Adam and Eve could do anything beyond their programming.  They "chose" to eat from the tree.  This was obviously a result of their programming according to Billy Graham.  They were punished and expelled from the garden for being robots.  However they gained the ability to love and make choices once evil entered their lives since love is predicated on evil according to Billy Graham.  Which must be true because his god would be a robot as well if it also did not possess evil.  Both god and mankind must contain evil to love and make choices.  We should then resist the movement for the end times in which god wishes to restore man to a "perfect" or "heavenly" state, that is to say, a world without evil.  God wishes to return man to being a robot that does not love and cannot make choices.

 

          mwc