Why Did The Disciples Die If It Were Not True?

[Blood]

I believe some of the stories of martyrdom are probably true, not because what the New Testament says is in any way reliable, but because of extra-biblical sources like Tacitus and Lucian of Samosata. Tacitus relays the historically plausible info that Nero scape-goated Christians for the great fire in Rome and thus had them burned; however, no Christian source recounts this astonishing tale. 

 

Lucian just says that the Christians are so stupid and naive to believe they'll live forever, that they go to their deaths willingly; but he doesn't say why they are being put to death. I don't believe just being an illegal religion in Roman Empire was enough to warrant the death penalty. 

[Mythra]

Here is text from the Acts of Paul. Also dated between 150 and 200 c.e.  More fantastic stuff - when Paul's head is lopped off, it squirts milk.  

Then, after he's dead he shows back up and talks to caesar.

 

Then Paul stood with his face to the east and lifted up his hands unto heaven and prayed a long time, and in his prayer he conversed in the Hebrew tongue with the fathers, and then stretched forth his neck without speaking. And when the executioner (speculator) struck off his head, milk spurted upon the cloak of the soldier. And the soldier and all that were there present when they saw it marvelled and glorified God which had given such glory unto Paul: and they went and told Caesar what was done.

VI. And when he heard it, while he marvelled long and was in perplexity, Paul came about the niuth hour, when many philosophers and the centurion were standing with Caesar, and stood before them all and said: Caesar, behold, I, Paul, the soldier of God, am not dead, but live in my God. But unto thee shall many evils befall and great punishment, thou wretched man, because thou hast shed unjustly the blood of the righteous, not many days hence. And having so said Paul departed from him. 

[mymistake]

Wow, what a marvelous milk that squirted out of that headless corps.  God is so glorious to give us this marvelous milk.

 

Seems legit!

[pratt]

i used to buy into that crap of who would die for a lie thing till jihadists would die for 70 virgins in the sky, yup, even today

[Mythra]

Wow, what a marvelous milk that squirted out of that headless corps.  God is so glorious to give us this marvelous milk.

 

Seems legit!

I know, right?  By christian logic, it's so unbelievable it MUST be true.

 

(Although these are apocryphal writings, you understand.  No christian would make any attempt to defend them).

 

They only defend the "fact" that Paul died by beheading. In defense of the gospel.  But de debil is in de details. 

[Mythra]

pratt said: i used to buy into that crap of who would die for a lie thing till jihadists would die for 70 virgins in the sky, yup, even today 

 

 

People die for all kinds of reasons.  Joseph Smith died because he didn't want to give up his defense of Mormonism 40 wives.  But at least they were real.  The youngest being 14 years of age.   

[Mythra]

I believe some of the stories of martyrdom are probably true, not because what the New Testament says is in any way reliable, but because of extra-biblical sources like Tacitus and Lucian of Samosata. Tacitus relays the historically plausible info that Nero scape-goated Christians for the great fire in Rome and thus had them burned; however, no Christian source recounts this astonishing tale. 

 

Lucian just says that the Christians are so stupid and naive to believe they'll live forever, that they go to their deaths willingly; but he doesn't say why they are being put to death. I don't believe just being an illegal religion in Roman Empire was enough to warrant the death penalty. 

I think some of the accounts of martyrdom are true too. But those would be later generations of christians who believed it completely and could not have known better.  But the main apologetic argument is that the disciples who were with Jesus died martyr's deaths defending the gospel.  And if the gospel story were fabricated, then the disciples died defending something they knew never happened.  And who would do such a thing??   Only thing is, there's no proof that any of them actually died in anything other than a rocking chair.  Or that most of them even were real people. 

[mymistake]

pratt said: i used to buy into that crap of who would die for a lie thing till jihadists would die for 70 virgins in the sky, yup, even today 

 

 

People die for all kinds of reasons.  Joseph Smith died because he didn't want to give up his defense of Mormonism 40 wives.  But at least they were real.  The youngest being 14 years of age.   

 

 

Well technically I was trying to mock the way the Gospels are written.  I know you were citing one written much later but even the Biblical gospels are filled with random passages of "they marveled and glorified God".  It doesn't make sense.  

 

They went shopping and behold a parking space was available in the front row.  They marveled and glorified God.

 

They could not find their keys.  Then they found their keys right where they had left them.  They marveled and glorified God.

 

 

 

I don't think marveled means what Bible translators think it means.

[♦ ficino ♦]

We tend to grow up with this picture of a martyr's death: martyr is brought before Roman tribunal

                                                                                        martyr is given chance to renounce Christianity

                                                                                        martyr instead gives long, eloquent speech

                                                                                        unbelievers slander the martyr

                                                                                        martyr undergoes macabre tortures and dies gloriously

 

This picture comes from stories of martyrdoms written centuries after the lifetimes of the apostles - like some that Mythra quoted above.

 

In fact we don't know that any of the apostles was martyred. The evidence is later than the gospels/Acts.

 

If they were martyred, we know no details of the trials. All we have are various, sometimes contradictory stories from much later.

 

IF they were executed at all, the Romans may well have put them to death for sedition, not for religious non-conformity. In which case they would not have had chances to renounce their faith.

[mymistake]

We tend to grow up with this picture of a martyr's death: martyr is brought before Roman tribunal

                                                                                        martyr is given chance to renounce Christianity

                                                                                        martyr instead gives long, eloquent speech

                                                                                        unbelievers slander the martyr

                                                                                        martyr undergoes macabre tortures and dies gloriously

 

This picture comes from stories of martyrdoms written centuries after the lifetimes of the apostles - like some that Mythra quoted above.

 

In fact we don't know that any of the apostles was martyred. The evidence is later than the gospels/Acts.

 

If they were martyred, we know no details of the trials. All we have are various, sometimes contradictory stories from much later.

 

IF they were executed at all, the Romans may well have put them to death for sedition, not for religious non-conformity. In which case they would not have had chances to renounce their faith.

 

 

Excellent points.  Anybody who has ever been to a funeral knows how we distort the life and meaning of anybody who dies.  And that is just for any ordinary guy.  With that much spin a week after death imagine how much spin can add up when a generation goes by and the person was remembered as a leader.  Add crazy religious belief to the mix and who knows where it could end up.

[★ Citsonga ★]

i used to buy into that crap of who would die for a lie thing till jihadists would die for 70 virgins in the sky, yup, even today

 

There is a difference there, though. When we're talking about the disciples, if one takes the Bible and martyrdom stories at face value, then the point is that if Jesus really hadn't risen from the dead, then the disciples would have known that, which in turn means that they would have been allowing themselves to be martyred for something that they knew was not true. If that angle was factual, then the argument does make sense, since most people would not willingly give up their lives for something they know to be false.

 

Of course, there are so many problems with the Bible that it is useless as a source of information, and the martyrdom stories are even more problematic. The argument fails miserably because of that, not because of other people dying for truth claims when they were not in a position to automatically know that the claims were actually false.