Lizard Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 A dear friend of mine asked me this question earlier. Yes, he's a Christian, but of a much different sort. I can always give the stock answers..so, I did. "The penalty for sin is death/seperation from God/burning in hell for eternity" But..as I typed out that pat answer that most xtians will answer, I got to thinking.. "Hey! That can't be right!!" One of two things is wrong there..(Besides the obvious, the need to have a penalty for "sin"..) Can y'all see what kinda jumped up and slapped me in the face? Another contradiction..and falsehood..interesting, really.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 This is one of those evasive issues that, when brought up to a Christian, turns into a game of apologist wack-a-mole, because they have a ready-made answer to everything you argue, but all of it is problematic. So they'll just keep going around in circles with you until you give up. My favorite quibble is that they say that the penalty for sin is death, but it's spiritual death. But when you look up the laws in the Bible and read the penalties in detail, you find that it actually says that sinners are to be put to death (i.e., executed), and at times it specifies stoning. That's a rather physical sort of death, if you ask me. But then they'll say that that was the old law and under the New Testiment, executions are no longer necessary. However, when you ask them about all of those times that God says his laws are to last forever, they just continue to duck and weave until you get tired and walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 My favorite quibble is that they say that the penalty for sin is death, but it's spiritual death. But when you look up the laws in the Bible and read the penalties in detail, you find that it actually says that sinners are to be put to death (i.e., executed), and at times it specifies stoning. That's a rather physical sort of death, if you ask me. Neil... how could you not realise? They mean stoning with spiritual stones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard Posted May 7, 2005 Author Share Posted May 7, 2005 Neil... how could you not realise? They mean stoning with spiritual stones. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard Posted May 7, 2005 Author Share Posted May 7, 2005 The thing that gets me..based on the stock answers from the bible.. Here's some reasoning for ya.. If the penalty for sin is death, whether spiritual or physical..and jesus paid the penalty..shouldn't he still be either in hell, in eternal torment, or seperated from god, eternally? I mean..if the penalty for us is eternal.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 The thing that gets me..based on the stock answers from the bible.. Here's some reasoning for ya.. If the penalty for sin is death, whether spiritual or physical..and jesus paid the penalty..shouldn't he still be either in hell, in eternal torment, or seperated from god, eternally? I mean..if the penalty for us is eternal.. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No... Jesus had one of those "get out of torment free" cards. It just took him 3 days to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard Posted May 7, 2005 Author Share Posted May 7, 2005 No... Jesus had one of those "get out of torment free" cards.It just took him 3 days to find it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hmm..then can we all have one too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Hmm..then can we all have one too? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Depends on what sect your in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin webmdave Posted May 7, 2005 Admin Share Posted May 7, 2005 That was one of the issues that struck me when I was a Christian. Why should Jebus get out of hell in 3 days? Answer: Everything he does is eternal, so although his suffering was short in our eyes, for an eternal being it was eternal. Conclusion: The answer didn't work for me either. Besides that, if GOD is everywhere, how can anyone be separated from him? Psalm 139:8 (King James Version)If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. "THAT DOESN'T MEAN HELL IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE, IT MEANS THE SHEOL, OR THE GRAVE, OR SOMETHING.... YOU'RE TAKING IT OUT OF CONTEXT -enraged cap-locked fundie. Whatever it means, it clearly teaches that GOD is everywhere, and there is no place a person can go, even after death, that HE is not. Separated from God - can't do it, not according to the Bible. Then again, could this just may be another contradiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 That was one of the issues that struck me when I was a Christian. Why should Jebus get out of hell in 3 days? Answer: Everything he does is eternal, so although his suffering was short in our eyes, for an eternal being it was eternal. Conclusion: The answer didn't work for me either. Besides that, if GOD is everywhere, how can anyone be separated from him? "THAT DOESN'T MEAN HELL IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE, IT MEANS THE SHEOL, OR THE GRAVE, OR SOMETHING.... YOU'RE TAKING IT OUT OF CONTEXT -enraged cap-locked fundie. Whatever it means, it clearly teaches that GOD is everywhere, and there is no place a person can go, even after death, that HE is not. Separated from God - can't do it, not according to the Bible. Then again, could this just may be another contradiction? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Webmaster, Good question. Separation from God is possible. After Jesus resurrected, He breathed the Holy Spirit onto the disciples. The disciples were separted from Christ after His death. The people put Jesus to death in vain, and He said forgive them for they know not what they do. The disciples had the Holy Spirit inside of them to keep the faith and guide them. This is the gift that Jesus told Christians He would give them. Anyhow, to answer the topic, we are separted from God, but we have Jesus's word to us by the scripture in which the Holy Spirit comes to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 Webmaster, Good question. Separation from God is possible. After Jesus resurrected, He breathed the Holy Spirit onto the disciples. The disciples were separted from Christ after His death. The people put Jesus to death in vain, and He said forgive them for they know not what they do. The disciples had the Holy Spirit inside of them to keep the faith and guide them. This is the gift that Jesus told Christians He would give them. Anyhow, to answer the topic, we are separted from God, but we have Jesus's word to us by the scripture in which the Holy Spirit comes to us. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That doesn't explain anything about the contradiction in Psalm 139:8. How is separation from God possible and yet impossible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 Webmaster, Good question. Separation from God is possible. After Jesus resurrected, He breathed the Holy Spirit onto the disciples. The disciples were separted from Christ after His death. The people put Jesus to death in vain, and He said forgive them for they know not what they do. The disciples had the Holy Spirit inside of them to keep the faith and guide them. This is the gift that Jesus told Christians He would give them. Anyhow, to answer the topic, we are separted from God, but we have Jesus's word to us by the scripture in which the Holy Spirit comes to us. Yoyo, Just a suggestion, mind you. Don't "preach" to the Webmaster. It makes it painfully obvious (not to mention damn funny) to the rest of us that you've not bothered to read his testimony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euphgeek Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 Webmaster, Good question. Separation from God is possible. After Jesus resurrected, He breathed the Holy Spirit onto the disciples. The disciples were separted from Christ after His death. The people put Jesus to death in vain, and He said forgive them for they know not what they do. The disciples had the Holy Spirit inside of them to keep the faith and guide them. This is the gift that Jesus told Christians He would give them. Anyhow, to answer the topic, we are separted from God, but we have Jesus's word to us by the scripture in which the Holy Spirit comes to us. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But if God is everywhere (even hell), how can you be separated from him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard Posted May 8, 2005 Author Share Posted May 8, 2005 This is what really shows me the contradiction.. Say you got a ticket for speeding. The "penalty" is $100. But, you have no money, you have no way to pay it. So, I step in and say, "I'll pay that penalty for you! Just believe me. When you see the judge, tell him that Lizard paid the penalty." Now, I go to the court and realize I only have $10. So, I pay that. I reckon that should be enough. Of course, the judge is my daddy, so he might let me get away with that partial payment for your debt. And, maybe I am paying for everyone..I won the lottery, so, I can do that. But, only $10 of the total penalty. And, only for those who BELIEVE I have paid it. The next guy comes along. He didn't believe that I would do that. He doesn't know my name. He is ordered to pay the full $100 or go to jail forever. This is justice? This is holy? No, this is insanity. At the most, assuming there is a hell, they should then get three days there. Afterall, that was the price paid. (Or $10 for the ticket, as the case may be ) Thats where it really does not make sense to me. If jesus paid the penalty, he should still be seperated/tormented/whatever..for eternity. Because that was the proclaimed price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 They mean stoning with spiritual stones. Is that like a holey stone? Cause there are such things, and you can find them on New Agey web sites. I suppose a spiritual stone would have to be holey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Broke Free Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 You guys obviously did not the latest apologetic newsletter. God is in hell, but he is behind a Plexiglas window taunting everyone with a pitcher of ice water. Thus, those in hell are separated from God, while at the same time, God is in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 Webmaster, Good question. Separation from God is possible. After Jesus resurrected, He breathed the Holy Spirit onto the disciples. The disciples were separted from Christ after His death. The people put Jesus to death in vain, and He said forgive them for they know not what they do. The disciples had the Holy Spirit inside of them to keep the faith and guide them. This is the gift that Jesus told Christians He would give them. Anyhow, to answer the topic, we are separted from God, but we have Jesus's word to us by the scripture in which the Holy Spirit comes to us. It sure was a good question, how about a good answer? This says nothing! Remember, if ChristianGod is everywhere, every time you take a dump you shit on your God. Better, hold it! Hmmm! Maybe that's why ChristianGod is so grumpy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 Lizzard, To carry your idea a bit further: If you pay the whole fine, $100, the judge doesn't give it back after 3 days. If he does so because he is your daddy, he is not just. chef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 YoYo, what's a spirit? When you talk about spirits, such as "the Holy Spirit", what are you referring to? Define that word, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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