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My Friend Told Me Yesterday He Is Leaving The Faith


mick
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I have been a Christian for 17 years. An excellent friend and very knowledable Bible scholar told me yesterday he no longer believes the Bible. He was the greatest aplogist the I knew in person for the longest time. He is an Elder in my church. At first he asked if I would remain his friend if he abandoned the faith entirely. He has toned this down to now he wants to just be a very Liberal Christian who does nto believe the hard parts of the Bible. (which frankly is most of it)

 

This has had a very serious impact on my own faith. I am a believer in Jesus Christ. However, I have seriously struggled with most of the doctrine and the acts attributed to God in much of the Bible since almost the very begining of my Christian walk.

 

I remember when I was a young Christian being encouraged by other Christians to not read the OT right away or Revelation, etc.

 

I can't talk to Christians about these things. I feel like I am dying. My wife and 2 children are at church right now for Bible Study and CHildren's church club.

 

God have mercy on me.

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I feel like I am dying. ...

 

God have mercy on me.

Welcome Mick.

 

It's hard to face the possibility that what you've believed for a lifetime might be wrong. Christianity comes with a lot of "features" that help make it difficult to consider other world views.

 

Many of us have gone through the same doubt and related pain that you are experiencing. Many here are willing to discuss your thoughts and questions with you if that's what you'd like (you didn't really say why you're here.)

 

Keep an open mind, no matter what you're told from any side of the debate, and you'll eventually find your way.

 

It may seem dark now, but in my experience this will pass once you've spent time working out your thoughts and beliefs.

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I feel like I am dying. ...

 

God have mercy on me.

Welcome Mick.

 

It's hard to face the possibility that what you've believed for a lifetime might be wrong. Christianity comes with a lot of "features" that help make it difficult to consider other world views.

 

Many of us have gone through the same doubt and related pain that you are experiencing. Many here are willing to discuss your thoughts and questions with you if that's what you'd like (you didn't really say why you're here.)

 

Keep an open mind, no matter what you're told from any side of the debate, and you'll eventually find your way.

 

It may seem dark now, but in my experience this will pass once you've spent time working out your thoughts and beliefs.

 

Hi Texas Free Thinker,

 

I am just very confused. Ironically, I have always believed from the beginning that what I have believed might be wrong. Fear of Hell seems to lesson actually when you loosen on your Christian beliefs. As a Christian you could always wonder if your faith is genuine, and Christians always talk about how some Christians my be self decieved. Then supposedly you can now you are saved though. This always made me wonder about my salvation state. And of course there is the issue of struggling with sin.

 

The fear of Hell is something that traps some people I think. They are like, I can never be sure I won't go to Hell for sure if I don't believe, and since Hell is just unacceptable you repent and trust in Christ so you won't go there. That's what I'll probably do in an hour or so.

 

I just feel like eventually I must be honest with myself. There are things in the Bible I just don't believe. (I.e God destroys entire cities, orders the Israelites to kill all the women and children. Yet this is my loving God, my heavenly Father? I'm just trying to be real. )

 

God forgive me. (I've been a CHristian for 17 years. I'll probably be asking for His forgiveness often during this process)

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I just feel like eventually I must be honest with myself. There are things in the Bible I just don't believe. (I.e God destroys entire cities, orders the Israelites to kill all the women and children. Yet this is my loving God, my heavenly Father? I'm just trying to be real. )

I agree that you must be honest with yourself. Without that what do you have?

 

I too had trouble with the concept of an all-loving god that would "toy" with Job, or kill innocent Egyptian children, or order his chosen people to kill all the men, women and children of entire civilizations. We would consider a human who did these things to be incredibly immoral - a monster. In fact, if such a being exists would it be worthy of our adoration and praise? That would be like praising Hitler in my opinion.

 

And these actions from the bible pale in comparison to the idea that god, who created us, would condemn most of us to an eternal hell with horrible, everlasting punishment for not believing in him. Millions, if not billions of people have honestly, sincerely looked into the question of whether or not the christian god exists and have decided that there is no evidence to support this fact. Would a just, loving god really send these people (myself included) to hell for making an honest choice not to believe based on the evidence they see? That seems too incredible.

 

For those reasons, and many others, I have come to believe that the god of the bible does not exist.

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I completely understand... you are going through the most painful part of doubt. I don't want to say that you will completely deconvert, you may well come to some middle road position, but the confusion you are going through is familiar to many of us on these boards.

 

Don't be afraid to be honest with yourself and ask questions. If there is any particular issue you want to discuss, there are plenty on here that will take it up with you. Being really honest with yourself takes a lot of integrity and honesty. God can handle that and if God can't handle it, you know that God isn't God.

 

Best wishes on your journey!

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I feel like I am dying. ...

 

God have mercy on me.

Welcome Mick.

 

It's hard to face the possibility that what you've believed for a lifetime might be wrong. Christianity comes with a lot of "features" that help make it difficult to consider other world views.

 

Many of us have gone through the same doubt and related pain that you are experiencing. Many here are willing to discuss your thoughts and questions with you if that's what you'd like (you didn't really say why you're here.)

 

Keep an open mind, no matter what you're told from any side of the debate, and you'll eventually find your way.

 

It may seem dark now, but in my experience this will pass once you've spent time working out your thoughts and beliefs.

 

Hi Texas Free Thinker,

 

I am just very confused. Ironically, I have always believed from the beginning that what I have believed might be wrong. Fear of Hell seems to lesson actually when you loosen on your Christian beliefs. As a Christian you could always wonder if your faith is genuine, and Christians always talk about how some Christians my be self decieved. Then supposedly you can now you are saved though. This always made me wonder about my salvation state. And of course there is the issue of struggling with sin.

 

The fear of Hell is something that traps some people I think. They are like, I can never be sure I won't go to Hell for sure if I don't believe, and since Hell is just unacceptable you repent and trust in Christ so you won't go there. That's what I'll probably do in an hour or so.

 

I just feel like eventually I must be honest with myself. There are things in the Bible I just don't believe. (I.e God destroys entire cities, orders the Israelites to kill all the women and children. Yet this is my loving God, my heavenly Father? I'm just trying to be real. )

 

God forgive me. (I've been a CHristian for 17 years. I'll probably be asking for His forgiveness often during this process)

 

Mick, it IS a process. Weather you remain a Christian, or if you leave, you will probably go back and forth. Hell is a scary concept, one I finnaly let go of. Once I let go, and looked at things with my mind unclouded, what I saw I could not believe. I felt very free, I had, even then, moments of fear, and I had moments where I thought of going back. Mick I wish I could offer more advice, each of our paths is different though, but I do understand what you are saying. I hope you can come back here, this may be a very good place for you. If you get a cance read teh ex-testimonies, here's mine http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=2405

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I completely understand... you are going through the most painful part of doubt. I don't want to say that you will completely deconvert, you may well come to some middle road position, but the confusion you are going through is familiar to many of us on these boards.

 

Don't be afraid to be honest with yourself and ask questions. If there is any particular issue you want to discuss, there are plenty on here that will take it up with you. Being really honest with yourself takes a lot of integrity and honesty. God can handle that and if God can't handle it, you know that God isn't God.

 

Best wishes on your journey!

 

I have often though something like this:

 

Eternity is like and endless line drawn out forever. Your time on earth is like a pin prick dot on the line at some point. According to the Bible, sin has created a serious separation from God, to the point where we cannot even see him, and the only way to accept him is through faith and belief. Then we are somehow held accoutnable to believe the correct faith of the Bible during this short life in order to avaoid an enternity of torment in Hell. It makes no snese, seems horribly unfair, and I admit I no longer understand it, maybe never did. I did definately beleive it and I went on missionary trips, etc. Tried to convert family, evertyhing. But, by Christian standards, I have been "dead" in my faith for years.

 

I do believe there is a God. I believe He loves me. I do not belive in a Big Mean, Angry God anymore.

 

My wife is devout, and I will just be in the closet on this probably for the rest of my life. I secertly hope my children will decide for themselves to be free thinkers. I don't believe I am going to Hell.

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Welcome, mick.

 

Like Pandora said, don't be afraid to be true to yourself. So many Xians remain Xian because they just can't admit to themselves that parts of their religion are beyond human ability to accept. The facts of Xianity's cruel god, illogical plan of salvation, Babblical contradictions, and centuries of hampering human progress and culture all end up being woven into a tapestry that the questioning believer cannot long ignore. It was like that for me; there were simply too many problems, too many inconsistencies, and it was actually starting to take a personal toll on my life. Either Xianity had to go or I did.

 

I chose Xianity - it had to go, and I chose life in its place. Your friend leaving the cult behind is one of the best decisions he can make for himself. To live is religion enough for me, and when I made that decision, I couldn't have felt more unburdened. No amount of time in prayer, in the confessional, or in church ever gave me that real sense of freedom that comes with knowing I didn't have to appease an angry, hateful god anymore. I didn't have to trick myself into believing in the murder of a pacifist Jewish preacher nor try to make myself believe that all morality and wisdom flowed from the church contrived to honor him. I was free to make up my own mind and use the brain my Creator(s) gave me. Dogma and superstition no longer mattered.

 

I wish you well in your journey - it sounds like you've stumbled along a path that may be very fruitful to you. Don't be afraid to question and doubt - and deny. There are no lightning bolts waiting to strike you down and no Hell for you to roast in for having your own opinion or using your own mind - so use it!

 

And welcome again :)

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and it was actually starting to take a personal toll on my life. Either Xianity had to go or I did.

 

>> How old are you? Do you have spouse/children?

 

I have a devout wife who would never accept me not believing, and little children who are being endoctrinated with it. I feel pain when my little girl has a look of horror when she hears of some little cousin of hers doesn't go to church and hence will be going to Hell. I'm just going to believe in my heart what I believe and have a liberal view of salvation from now on, openly with my children. i will tell them that loved ones who dies went to heaven. Perhaps it will evolve further, I don't know.

 

Thanks for the welcome!

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That is a tough situation with your family Mick. Don't really know what to say other than good luck, and be sure to allow your kids the freedom to question.

 

My wife is not happy about my unbelief, but she can't dispute the facts when I present them. I still go to church with her :ugh: just to keep peace, but she knows my position.

 

Also, if "once saved, always saved" is true, you've got nothing to worry about.

:HaHa:

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Hey mick.

 

Many of us recognize your anguish. We were there too. It is the toughest of times to be stuck in between faith and reason and to not know where you're going to end up.

 

For most of us, we finally came to a point where we took a deep breath and said - "I no longer believe."

 

I no longer believe in Hell. In an angry God who exhibits the spoiled temper of a six year old. In a half-god half-man who came to earth to give a series of confusing messages and then left us to fend for ourselves. In a Holy Ghost that dwells within a person's heart and makes all believers unified in their thoughts and purposes.

 

Some of us just think too much to be blindly sold out to Jesus for life. Unanswered questions are the beginnings of getting loose from religion's tentacles.

 

But the fact that deconversion will seriously mess with your life doesn't help matters any.

 

But, in the end - you'll do what you need to do. Be true to yourself.

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How old are you? Do you have spouse/children?

 

I have a devout wife who would never accept me not believing, and little children who are being endoctrinated with it. I feel pain when my little girl has a look of horror when she hears of some little cousin of hers doesn't go to church and hence will be going to Hell. I'm just going to believe in my heart what I believe and have a liberal view of salvation from now on, openly with my children. i will tell them that loved ones who dies went to heaven. Perhaps it will evolve further, I don't know.

 

Thanks for the welcome!

 

I'm 29, I have no spouse (but am engaged), and no kids. Xianity began having that effect on me after I left my ex-gf and I of course endured a long period of depression as I tried to cope with and get over the bitch. I ended up believing I was Hell-bound because I was imperfect and human, and also because I began believing the things my ex and some of her friends would say about me (all behind my back, of course). That, combined with my Xianity (which was mortally wounded thanks to having studied Deism shortly before leaving her) formed a poison pill in my soul, one that had to be removed lest I sink further into a self-imposed living Hell.

 

That's all over, and my current girlfriend has no such issues to worry of. She even feels and believes much like I do, so I don't have to hide in the closet (my ex was a guilt-based paranoid Catholic and I was starting to doubt Xianity just before we split). My advice to you is to just hang in there; you never know when you'll get a chance to come out of the closet or influence your family in a more reasonable direction. At least that is my earnest hope.

 

Good luck!

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.... I feel pain when my little girl has a look of horror when she hears of some little cousin of hers doesn't go to church and hence will be going to Hell. I'm just going to believe in my heart what I believe and have a liberal view of salvation from now on, openly with my children. i will tell them that loved ones who dies went to heaven. Perhaps it will evolve further, I don't know.....

 

Hi Mick,

 

There's something about seeing through the eyes of children to realize how wrong it is.

 

Sounds like you've been thinking quite a bit beyond the "got my fire insurance" sort of faith and to hell w/ the rest of the world. The repercussions of christian dogma on your life, your kids' lives, your wife. After the drama of the initial "oh my god what am I thinking? It's blasphemy" phase passes, hopefully you can step back even more and cooly analyze exactly what you think. It's hard to do when your emotions are in high gear.

 

Good luck and welcome. :)

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Mick maybe you can have an honest discussion with your friend. He may be able to give you some good reasons to stop believing, or recommend some reading you can do on your own. Instead of hearing "the Bible says so, it must be true," you can get some real answers to your questions.

 

Or maybe you can post specific questions about Christianity that bother you.

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I have been a Christian for 17 years. An excellent friend and very knowledable Bible scholar told me yesterday he no longer believes the Bible. He was the greatest aplogist the I knew in person for the longest time. He is an Elder in my church. At first he asked if I would remain his friend if he abandoned the faith entirely. He has toned this down to now he wants to just be a very Liberal Christian who does nto believe the hard parts of the Bible. (which frankly is most of it)

 

This has had a very serious impact on my own faith. I am a believer in Jesus Christ. However, I have seriously struggled with most of the doctrine and the acts attributed to God in much of the Bible since almost the very begining of my Christian walk.

 

I remember when I was a young Christian being encouraged by other Christians to not read the OT right away or Revelation, etc.

 

I can't talk to Christians about these things. I feel like I am dying. My wife and 2 children are at church right now for Bible Study and CHildren's church club.

 

God have mercy on me.

 

 

Hi Mick,

 

I must admit that your post filled me with a lot of sadness. I am in a similar place myself (I'm a devout Catholic turned disillusioned skeptic). Like you, I have many issues with Christianity (eg. Hell, God's acts in the Bible, Divinity of Jesus, etc.). I also suffer a lot of guilt for doubting. In addition to this, I feel I have to hide my crumbling faith (I'm hiding from my parents, not a spouse).

 

I have a couple of questions for you, if I may:

 

1) What denomination are you a part of?

 

2) Would you say that your doubts are mostly due to exposure to your liberal friend? I know that my first faith crisis (I'm in my second one right now) was exacerbated due to liberal Catholics. So, I do understand the effects something like that can cause.

 

I'm not here to push you in one direction or another- only you are an expert on your own journey. But I will encourage you to do this: be honest with yourself, and do talk out your struggles. Personally, I don't think that a faith can survive if it's based on dishonesty (something I keep telling myself every day!). Of course, I can't say whether you will end up faithful or not. But I do know that lies often make a difficult situation all that much harder.

 

If you need someone to talk to, my PM box is always open. I'll be here if you need me, and I'm sure others on the board will be too.

 

I wish you much peace in whatever you choose.

 

Rosa

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I feel like I am dying.

 

God have mercy on me.

 

Aw, mick, I have an overwhelming urge to hug you right now.

 

I have often though something like this:

 

Eternity is like and endless line drawn out forever. Your time on earth is like a pin prick dot on the line at some point. According to the Bible, sin has created a serious separation from God, to the point where we cannot even see him, and the only way to accept him is through faith and belief. Then we are somehow held accoutnable to believe the correct faith of the Bible during this short life in order to avaoid an enternity of torment in Hell. It makes no snese, seems horribly unfair, and I admit I no longer understand it, maybe never did. I did definately beleive it and I went on missionary trips, etc. Tried to convert family, evertyhing. But, by Christian standards, I have been "dead" in my faith for years.

 

Yes, I know what you mean. Life is so incredibly short. Why would an infinite creator be so nitpicky as to demand that we figure out the absolute truth in one short lifetime?

 

Even though I went through something similar to what you're going through, sometimes words fail me when it comes to encouraging someone else. I guess maybe because it's such a personal thing. At any rate, you're among friends here, and please be assured that there are plenty of people here to listen.

 

I wish you all the best on your search.

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Chin up, Mick! Don't let it worry you (easier said than done, I know). If the man upstairs is real, he understands and isn't going to strike you down while you sort all this out. Even Jesus had his moments of doubt. Take it slow and easy, and make your own mind up. God will still be waiting for you.

 

 

 

 

 

And if biblegod isn't real, then you have nothing to worry about! :phew:

 

 

 

EDIT: I hope I'm not coming off as glib - just trying to lift your spirits a bit. Hang in there, and make the best decisions you can.

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Hi Mick,

 

You seem to be evolving into a deist; you might want to

read about deism and see if that suits you better than

fire-and-brimstone, fundamentalist christianity. Not sure

what else to tell you, though. I wish you the best on your

journey, and hope you find whatever it is that you are

looking for.

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Just an idea, but if you want to stomp your faith out all in one shot check out the link in my signature. Just a warning though: its an entire book. If you want the quick and dirty, go to godisimaginary.com

 

If you really don't want to take the red pill, please stay far away. I wish you the best.

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Hi Mick, and welcome to the forum. I hope you stick around.

We all have our stories. I was a believer for 25 years, 10 of which were spent devoutly in church, the other 15, wondering the religious landscape, unable to find a place where I fit in.

I left the faith about 6 years ago, and I feel your pain.

I go to church now, with my girlfriend, who is a Christian. She knows of my lack of faith, but loves me just the same. Her family and church friends do not know of my apostasy though. I guess they will find out one day. I have no problem keeping it a secret though, for her sake.

Can I recommend a book? "Losing Faith in Faith" by Dan Barker, preacher turned atheist. It may help with some of your questions or struggles. My library had a copy, then I bought one.

While I don't believe any gods exist Mick, I am open to the possibility, open to being presented some scientific and/or historical evidence. But if there is a god, and that god demands that I believe in him/her/it, in order to escape eternal punishment, no thanks. My principals will not allow me to stoop that low.

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Hi Mick,

 

I will assume since you came here you at least acknowlege that a lot of us were once in your shoes. If not, no matter.

 

When I was starting to question some of the beliefs I was exposed to in church I took the position of prayerfully seeking wisdom. At one point I determined to no longer be a teacher of the faith until I fully understood it and it's ramifications. I determined to become a student and study and learn what I could of my own beliefs; not just blindly accept them, but really hash it out and understand them. My reasoning was this: If my faith was indeed built on solid rock as it was claimed then it would withstand my questions. God gave me a brain and I couldn't find in the bible where it is a sin to use it humbly.

 

I am now ultimately an atheist as a result. That doesn't mean that you will end up where I did. Where I am today is the result of some really hard thinking and years of doubt and struggle with the question "what is truth?" Nevertheless, my advice to you is to be completely honest with yourself and at least understand in a meaningful way why it is you believe what you believe. If it's real, it will withstand your honest questions. Even Thomas had doubts and was not condemned for it. You at least have the same freedom that Thomas had in your search for truth.

 

Good luck my friend.

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Guest runaway

I have been a Christian for 17 years. An excellent friend and very knowledable Bible scholar told me yesterday he no longer believes the Bible. He was the greatest aplogist the I knew in person for the longest time. He is an Elder in my church. At first he asked if I would remain his friend if he abandoned the faith entirely. He has toned this down to now he wants to just be a very Liberal Christian who does nto believe the hard parts of the Bible. (which frankly is most of it)

 

This has had a very serious impact on my own faith. I am a believer in Jesus Christ. However, I have seriously struggled with most of the doctrine and the acts attributed to God in much of the Bible since almost the very begining of my Christian walk.

 

I remember when I was a young Christian being encouraged by other Christians to not read the OT right away or Revelation, etc.

 

Hi Mick,

 

I am also a Christian walking through that same dark doubt filled valley. I thought i would be out of it by now but two years on i am still stumbling about in the dark. I am hoping to hang on somehow but my christianity will never be the same again. (I think thats a good thing :grin: )

 

I think part of my problem was having too much faith in the bible, maybe revering the bible as if it was God. I went to a dogmatic bible focused church for 9 years and looking back its as though they worshipped the bible, the theology and the doctrines, more than they worshipped God.

 

Nowadays i live with an extremely cut down version of christianity to what i had before and i can no longer read the bible, it just depresses me. Maybe this is because i associate it with the OTT dogmatic evangelical interpretation that i can no longer stomach. Maybe i will be able to pick it up again one day with a different perspective. Maybe not. I thought i'd be there by now, im obviously on a longer road than id realised.

 

Noone should ever be worried by having doubts - doubts are part of being honest with yourself. Honesty is something God should approve of. Whereas smug certainty is pride and beleiving stuff because you are told to beleive it is just blind and ignorant. I like the orthodox view "faith is a constant dialogue with doubt".

 

I would rather doubt honestly than beleive blindly. Just because you struggle with the bible and doctrines doesn't mean that your faith in God has to come to an end. Faith in God shouldn't be about beleiving doctrines but about trusting a Person. That said, i don't know if i trust God I waver back and forth all the time. I still pray as if i trust Him. I can't help it.

 

 

I can't talk to Christians about these things. I feel like I am dying. My wife and 2 children are at church right now for Bible Study and CHildren's church club.

 

God have mercy on me.

 

 

I know - it is very hard to talk to Christians about this stuff. I think the so called 'strong christians' are actually very immature christians who can't accept anything other than their own point of view because they have never questioned it. It is those who ask questions that are more likely to end up being spiritually mature. I find it very difficult to be around my old evangelical friends.

 

But hang in there. You are not alone. There are many here who know exactly what you are going through. I hope you find this a place where you can freely think and explore your beleifs. I have found this site a real help even though I am not an ex-christian.

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Welcome Mick,

 

I, like many of us, have been where you are now, and most of us have come out of it changed (and for the most part, for the better). Still, it isn't an easy thing to go through. In the end, you are going to have to have a faith that you can live with, and if there is a god that gives a rip (another rant entirely), I'm pretty sure that it'll understand. Good luck, you'll need it.

 

As for your wife, I don't know her, but she may be more understanding than you think. Also, hiding something this big from her is probably not the best of ideas. Other than being honest with those you live with, in general, this is going to get hard to hide, should your faith change (and it looks like it has from what you have written so far). Hiding something this big wears on you (I have been largely hiding my faith from my family, amongst other things) after a while, and this is with just my immediate family, I could only imagine if this were with my partner.

 

Still, all of this is your decision and understanding in the end. Good luck, and, well, ask whatever you need to.

 

(as a bit to lighten the mood, if you do decide to leave the whole shebang, you'll get Sundays off and save 10%...)

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Noone should ever be worried by having doubts - doubts are part of being honest with yourself. Honesty is something God should approve of. Whereas smug certainty is pride and beleiving stuff because you are told to beleive it is just blind and ignorant. I like the orthodox view "faith is a constant dialogue with doubt".

I would rather doubt honestly than beleive blindly. Just because you struggle with the bible and doctrines doesn't mean that your faith in God has to come to an end. Faith in God shouldn't be about beleiving doctrines but about trusting a Person. That said, i don't know if i trust God I waver back and forth all the time. I still pray as if i trust Him. I can't help it.

 

 

 

 

Hi runway!

 

I bolded your lines, b/c those are key things to keep in mind in scenarios like this.

 

I know what waivering is all about. Currently, I am in my SECOND faith crisis. I have a feeling that this one will result in a complete deconversion. In a sense, I'm probably already "partially deconverted" b/c the intellectual basis for my beliefs has pretty much gone out the window (fear still remains though). I don't know if you struggle with this, but I struggle with a lot of guilt b/c of my doubts. It isn't easy.

 

Take your time. Don't feel you need to rush this. I've been doubting for a good year and a half now. And if you need to talk, I'm here for you.

 

Rosa

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