DucorpsToo Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 As a small preamble, I am a parrot owner and will occasionally lurk (but not post) on a birdboard, “mytoos.com”. They have many different parrot species forums as well as an “off-topic” and “philosophy” section. Anyways, one of the threads in the philosophy section concerned cruelty to animals. The thread starter.. “jodymurch” seems to be the bible-thumper among the board members. As the thread progressed, she became quite a bit more evangelistic and insulting. I was almost tempted to re-register to that board just to rip her a new @sshole. However her final post (talked about rape) brought attention to the moderators, after which the whole thread was deleted immediately (and rightfully so!). However, I was able to get to the thread just in time to save it as a pdf, and will share the her last post, the little "gem" which shut down the whole thread, with all of you….. As somebody who spent a lot of years on reservations (my family is "colorchallenged"but Pa worked for the BIA, which may villainize him in some folks' minds, but his reason for being there was gratitude: it was an Indian who saved his life at one point during the Normandy Invasion, and he wanted to do what he could to help alleviate the misery) and also grew up believing the Bible, I can say that the catholic frame of belief doesn't necessarily represent the Biblical point of view. (hoooo boy, now THAT ought to start something) Solomon said "Who can say that the soul of man looks upward, to God, and the soul of the beast looks downward to the earth?" He was posing a question: how can you pretend you know what goes on inside an animal's soul? And he did assume the animal had a soul, unlike some "penknife" scholars who use only part of that passage to say that animals don't have souls. Now, I can't really write everything I am thinking; have the Slow Fingers syndrome. I would like to say that, whoever replied that a "rape victim" who didn't call out for assistance, and get it, was stoned along with her assailant, that is true. The assumption is not that she "wanted sex". It is more complex than that. If the girl was out without protection (a father, brother, group of friends, et c.) and happened to run into a violent man, she was expected to cry out for help. The Law is very clear that anyone who heard a call for help was to respond. Even if a donkey has fallen down, the neighbors are to assist in getting him on his feet; how much more a neighbor's child! If a girl chose to go out walking to alleviate boredom, in search of "adventure" (which is, by definition, danger) she shouldn't be surprised to find it. Cities had, especially when the Israelites neglected to destroy them, "temples of Ashtoreth", or whorehouses, where all young girls who were part of the religion served a year or two as "priestesses" before marrying. These "priestesses" were available to any worshipper who chose to take them. The man was supposed to pay a fee, but sometimes committed the act before paying. This sort of thing is, in case you have no imagination, a perfect home for any sexually transmitted pathogen to raise a family. And the pathogens prospered. One of the promises God made about the Law was that certain diseases would be unknown among those who followed His Law. A girl who wandered around areas where these "temples" were (and a "city" was rarely very huge; everything could be reached in a reasonable walk) was placing herself in the way of catching syphillis, as surely as a modern girl who is promiscuous is exposing herself to the same sort of thing. No effective treatments were available. If she subsequently had children, they would either catch the disease during birth, or possibly as they nursed. I have cared for children born with syphillis. They may be blind, deaf, mentally damaged, and often very aggressive. This was KNOWN by the Israelites. God knew it. The Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, and so on, knew it. God gave a command which contained the effective prevention plan. The person who knowingly placed himself or herself in the way of these diseases, endangered the community by assisting the disease to spread. "I needed to get out of the house" is a lousy excuse for endangering yourself, your sisters and female cousins (what if this rapist isn't all by himself?), and any children you might have. Yes, the girl was stoned. Tragic, yes but she would have died eventually, and would have infected anybody she married or fornicated with. Even if she lived a completely chaste life for years afterward, nobody would marry such an irresponsible person, and single women had very difficult lives. You "single moms" think you have it hard? Do a bit of reading about how unmarried, non-promiscuous women lived before the Christian era. Even with the assistance of their families, they spent their lives in hard work, limited finances, and social isolation. If you assume that there is no God, you have to assume there is no afterlife, no immortality. The Jews knew God. They had seen some impressive acts of God. They have survived for centuries because of these acts. They also knew that He called Himself the "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob". These guys were long-dead ancestors, and God claimed to be their God. So they must be with Him, in some way. The assumption was that when a person was no longer "here with us" they were in some way "with God". In the case of someone executed for a crime, they mightn't be enjoying being there, but they still exist. If they had been wrongfully executed, the people who had done the inaccurate investigation would be held responsible before God. Justice would eventually be done. In the meantime, the community would be protected. This all sounds suspiciously like what I find being said on this board: "some have to die to save others". You apply the idea to medical research. God applied it to disease prevention. And Ben Franklin said an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Ben is not part of the canon, but he was a sensible man in a lot of ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 The guy's just parroting what he's been taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 I could slip a joke about peckers in here, but I'm in awe. Who knew that parrot owners pondered such things? I thought they were consumed with what type of seeds to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DucorpsToo Posted February 16, 2006 Author Share Posted February 16, 2006 Normally that board is dedicated to issue unique to parrot owners such as proper diet (no..NOT a seed-only diet), behavioral issues, adoption, rescue, health care. But, as with other boards..even this one, there is an "off-topic" forum that doesn't necessarily have to be related to board's main theme. But the quote which I had copied here was actually in the "philosophy" forum which is usually deals with ethical issues concerning bird-keeping, and other animals. The board which I belong to wouldn't even allow such a thread exist in the first place. The poster on that other board does, at times, get in a few "evangelical digs" where it is not warranted and other members will call her on it. However this one really "took the cake" so-to-speak. Her explanation of what went on in those ancient times as well as her justification for it is not too unlike the "honor killings" that we hear of which occur in parts of the Muslim world right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 At least she agrees with me in that animals have souls........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Normally that board is dedicated to issue unique to parrot owners such as proper diet (no..NOT a seed-only diet), behavioral issues, adoption, rescue, health care. But, as with other boards..even this one, there is an "off-topic" forum that doesn't necessarily have to be related to board's main theme. But the quote which I had copied here was actually in the "philosophy" forum which is usually deals with ethical issues concerning bird-keeping, and other animals. Sorry, I was just making a bad joke. At least she agrees with me in that animals have souls........ Now that's just crazy!! <snort> I will take this time to apologize for that last comment. Anyway, I find it really hard to read along with the whole quote because something in the back of my mind keeps saying that I shouldn't bother. It may be her style of writing but there it a slight tone of nuttiness that strikes me within the first few sentences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Heh... well, that's deeper discussion than the board I visit. You WOULD think all parrot owners think about is new toys and food from what I have seen there. They had a thread once about homosexuals and it made me puke, but if religoin comes up in other ways, most people are pretty tolerant. There are quite a few Wiccan parrot owners too... Parrot people are just weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DucorpsToo Posted February 16, 2006 Author Share Posted February 16, 2006 Not only nutty, but she's actually justifying why the woman should be killed if she were raped as well as blaming her for being raped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelyn Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I'm owned by a macaw. I've been a member of the local cage bird club for several years though haven't attended their meetings as they conflict with my schedule. I've met some very interesting people there, some weird, most okay. It's quite a diverse group and the only thing most of us members have in common is that we have birds. That's quite a post on that board, whew! I sort of slightly think that the Old Testament stuff about a new mother being unclean is okay, as the woman just gave birth and needs to rest. The other stuff, from rape victims to menstruating women should be tossed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 At least she agrees with me in that animals have souls........ I'm with you on that one. Otherwise, how ironic - she's a good little Xian parrot herself, repeating what she's heard one too many times. Sounds like she needs more toys in her cage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asimov Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Not only nutty, but she's actually justifying why the woman should be killed if she were raped as well as blaming her for being raped. The way most women dress, I agree....damn sluts are askin for it if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friendly neighborhood atheist Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 I'm a parrot owner too. And a huge fan of treating all animals as benevolently as possible, while still being true to myself and my desire/instinct to eat meat. You will find thumpers springing out from all the most unexpected places. I've run into this before; the biblical heirarchy of "god's creatures" puts we humans squarely on top, with all the animals put here for our consumption or use / abuse. Christians as a general rule (and the more fundie the more true this is) do NOT respect animals. In fact they really view animals as a commodity, nuissance, food source or amusement. On various redneck channels on cable I've seen "hunting shows" where the guys "practice" by whistling for praire dogs, and blowing their heads off from 50 yards when they stick those little heads out of the burrows. It's nothing more than target practice with live animals, and it makes me very much want to do the same to them. Sorry for the venom but I hate shit like that. If you're going to hunt, HUNT - and use the meat and pelt. Don't kill for fun! I'm comfortable with the fact that I'm evolved from meat eating hunters, stereoscopic vision like most mammalian predators, but that doesn't mean I have to tolerate animal abuse or the crap attitudes that so many of my fellow citizens have towards them. I often wonder how much of that attitude is rooted in christian tradition / the bible. That long-winded rant about rape / sex / live on the reservation was interesting, but it only serves to illustrate that this infection of thought can get to anyone, anywhere, especially if conditions are right. I've always found those conditions to be dependant on poor education, poor employment opportunity, poverty in general, and being surrounded by believers. Sounds like this person didn't stand a chance, and that's sad. I think I'd rather be a parrot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Hey FNA... it irks me too how most Christians view animals, even their own pets, as playthings or service-providers. However, I do know of a few churches in my area that consider animal outreach a legitmate way to serve God (that's what they call it-- animal outreach). They give love to shelter animals and educate on the proper care of pets. It's a church for homosexuals, but hey... at least it's something. I feel honored to have pets in my home. I try my best to give all my pets the most space I can the the best food I can and the most love that I can. I often feel very guilty if I can't spend quality time with each of my birds everyday... they are like children! And anyone who says that they aren't at least somewhat aware of love or that they don't try to communicate with us beyond their basic needs is shallow. I had a Christian tell me once that animals are just robots and have no emotion or cognition at all because their brains control everything. Itold that person that by their definition, humans are just robots too. BTW, what parrot/s do you own? Me: Two Dusky conures (one rescue) Two cockatiels Small assortment (4) of budgies that I admit I have because they are fun to watch, I don't have a close bond to any except one or two... Sorry for the off-topic post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friendly neighborhood atheist Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Hey FNA... ....(edit mine) spend quality time with each of my birds everyday... they are like children! And anyone who says that they aren't at least somewhat aware of love or that they don't try to communicate with us beyond their basic needs is shallow. (AND EXTREMELY INCORRECT, DEMONSTRABLY SO!!! - this insertion mine) What parrot/s do you own? Me: Two Dusky conures (one rescue) Two cockatiels Small assortment (4) of budgies that I admit I have because they are fun to watch, I don't have a close bond to any except one or two... Sorry for the off-topic post... Hiya Pandora! Robots? No emotions? Hmmmm.... sounds like a little projection going on there. LOL My birds are a 5 year old male Senegal parrot and I also enjoy the company of a 5 year old female peachfaced Lovebird we named "Lemon" because she's mostly yellow. I'm going to try and post a photo of each now, wish me luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Obviously, this woman was having a moment. A moment probably best left to herself and off the board on a Parrot Chat. What a nut job? Was this the post that was deleted by the Administrator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DucorpsToo Posted February 24, 2006 Author Share Posted February 24, 2006 Yes, that once that post appeared , it was deleted within a few minutes as was the whole thread moments later. This was a very prudent choice indeed...as a war definitely would have ensued. Since I am not a member of that board, I do not know if that poster was admonished by the webmaster ..as she posts quite regularly and hence not a troll. I suspect though, that she may have received a warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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