Rosa Mystica Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Okay, so a few days ago, I was on a public bus and heard this loud, obnoxious, raving fundamentalist go on and on about death and near death experiences. First she talks about her dead aunt, about whom she had a dream. In her dream, this nutbar asked her aunt about how she liked Heaven. Upon being asked this question, her aunt supposedly "disappeared from view". I thought to myself, "Okay...suuuure" The next thing she said freaked the living daylights outta me. Nutbar decided to talk about her friend's near death experience. Apparently, he had met God, and the Lord said to him, "Depart from me! I never knew you". After hearing these "compassionate" words, the experiencer descended into Hell. He stayed there for a bit until God said, "I'm sending you back. I'm not yet finished with you." Upon this, the man regained consciousness, and felt grateful to be given "another chance". Nutbar had apparently asked her friend what Hell was like. He said, "It was pretty hot, and people around me were screaming." Now, I realize that most people here likely think that this story is a bunch of bullshit. Truthfully, I realize I probably should dismiss it, too. I've heard multiple NDE stories- all contradictory. Not to mention that this story isn't in synch with Christian theology (b/c most Christians don't believe that you can EVER get out of Hell once you get there). So, I should dismiss this idiot's story as bs, right? Well, easier said than done. Ever since I started acknowledging that I'm losing belief, I've felt that God has got it in for me. This story made me think, "What if a similar thing happens to me?" I realize these experiences are pretty rare, but my fear and guilt have been increased thanks to this crap. To the raving lunatic who just *had* to tell everyone around her this story: thanks a lot!!! You've just made feel that much worse for doubting. Thanks to fear tactics like yours, I will never gain an honest system of belief. Just had to get that outta me. Rosa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Rosa, You might find this link interesting: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen11.html Hell NDEs are very rare, and they tend to have positive outcomes. I would dismiss the ravings of this lunatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosa Mystica Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 Rosa, You might find this link interesting: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen11.html Hell NDEs are very rare, and they tend to have positive outcomes. I would dismiss the ravings of this lunatic. Hi Jeff, Thanks for the reassurance- I actually do feel a tad better. That link was kinda interesting actually. (*Deep Sigh*) Doubting really sucks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Near Death Experiences are hallucinations - nothing more. No one comes back to tell about their death experience. From Keith Augustine's article on Infidels.org entitled "The Case Against Immortality" : Some findings of NDE research are more consistent with physiological and psychological models. None of the patients who report NDEs are brain dead because brain death is irreversible (Beyerstein 46). First, NDEs only occur in one-third of all cases where there is a near-death crisis (Ring 194). Second, the details of NDEs depend on the individual's personal and cultural background (Ring 195). Third, physiological and psychological factors affect the content of the NDE. Noises, tunnels, bright lights, and other beings are more common in physiological conditions directly affecting the brain state, such as cardiac arrest and anesthesia, whereas euphoria, mystical feelings, life review, and positive transformation can occur when people simply believe they are going to die (Blackmore, "Dying" 44-45). Fourth, the core features of NDEs are found in drug-induced and naturally occurring hallucinations (Siegel 174). The OBE can be induced by the anesthetic ketamine (Blackmore, "Dying" 170). A tunnel experience is a common form of psychedelic hallucination (Siegel 175-6). All NDE stages have occurred in sequence under the influence of hashish (Blackmore, "Dying" 42-3). Fifth, a build-up of carbon dioxide in the brain will induce NDEs (Blackmore, "Dying" 53-4). Sixth, the panoramic life review closely resembles a form of temporal lobe epilepsy (206). There are even cases where epileptics have had OBEs or seen apparitions of dead friends and relatives during their seizures (206). Seventh, computer simulations of random neural firing based on eye-brain mapping of the visual cortex have produced the tunnel and light characteristic of NDEs (84). Eighth, the fact that naloxone--an opiate antagonist that inhibits the effects of endorphins on the brain--terminates near-death experiences provides some confirmation for the endorphin theory of NDEs: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelyn Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Have you heard of Dr. Richard Eby? He supposedly died and was dead for several hours after falling headfirst from a second story balcony in 1972 and went to heaven. He "came back" and wrote about it it in a book, "Caught Up Into Paradise". Some years later, he had a vision of Hell. I met him a few times, as he attended the church I attended from ages 10-18. Supposedly, he was told by Jesus that he wouldn't die until Jesus had returned. I just found out that he died in December 2002. If you search on google, you'll find some weird sites that try to explain that away. This web site examines several NDEs, including Dr. Eby's, in what seems, to me, a rational, non-emotional manner Christian Research Journal article I think that NDEs are hallucinations that happen in the mind as the body dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euphgeek Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Near Death Experiences are hallucinations - nothing more. I don't quite agree with you there. Hallucinations would not allow you to see surgical instruments you've never seen before while your eyes are closed, and no blood is flowing to your brain. As far as the points you posted, this website has some interesting rebuttals to them. Also, I did a search on naloxone and NDEs and found a website that seems to say that naloxone increases survival time, so I wouldn't find it surprising that it would end an NDE. I'm not claiming that I know that NDEs are real. I'm only saying that no one has proved that they don't exist. It's certainly an interesting subject, but probably one that won't be resolved within our lifetimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 I don't believe that we've even begun to understand all of the workings of the mind. Your argument - and telepathy - and remote sensing - and numerous other phenomena underscore this. But none of these arguments lend any credence whatsoever to the idea that thoughts can exist and be perpetuated after the brain is dead. Like I've said many times here. NDE's are not DE's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euphgeek Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 You're right. I'm only saying that no one knows for sure. There's probably an equal amount of evidence for each side of the argument, but nothing can be proven one way or the other. At least not right now. All we have are our beliefs about what happens when our bodies die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Rosa, You might find this link interesting: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen11.html Hell NDEs are very rare, and they tend to have positive outcomes. I would dismiss the ravings of this lunatic. Hi Jeff, Thanks for the reassurance- I actually do feel a tad better. That link was kinda interesting actually. (*Deep Sigh*) Doubting really sucks... You're welcome, Rosa. I'm glad you are feeling better. I love that link. It goes to a wealth of information that is critical of a literal interpretation of the bible. Doubting does suck. As Brother Voltaire said, "Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Test pilots in high-g blackouts can also experience NDE's. Same thing - long tunnel, white light, dead relatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 You're right. I'm only saying that no one knows for sure. There's probably an equal amount of evidence for each side of the argument, but nothing can be proven one way or the other. At least not right now. All we have are our beliefs about what happens when our bodies die. On the issue of NDEs, I am somewhat open-minded. I would like to believe that they hint at some form of afterlife, but I also tend to agree with Brother Mythra that they don't. Here's an interesting thought experiment that seems relevant. I probably won't word it very well since I'm dead tired right now, but... If you were dying, and you had an android body waiting for you and you had the option of taking one of your organs with you, which one would you take? Would you take your heart? Your lungs? Your liver or stomach or spleen? No? Why not? You would take your brain, wouldn't you, because your brain is YOU! Without your brain, you wouldn't be you! I think that makes the case against NDEs being something otherworldly pretty damn solid. If your brain dies, then YOU die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euphgeek Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Yes, that is a good argument, Brother Jeff. Myself, I think that the soul is to the brain what a radio wave is to a radio. But like I said, there's probably enough scientific evidence to convince anyone of either side. I don't think the focus should be on whether there is or isn't an afterlife, since one side could just as easily be proven wrong some day as the other. The focus should be on living this life the best we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGiant Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Well, I'd opt for taking the brain, so I wouldn't have to come up for a damn processor for the android, myself. As for events after death, don't actually know anything about it, or at least remember (if the reincarnation possibility works out) so I tend to have few strong opinions about it. I would ask, though: is a person dead in the case that their higher functions are blown out and there was only enough function to keep basic functions (e.g. respiration, heart rate) running? While the body is alive on a technical level, is the person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Near Death Experiences are hallucinations - nothing more. I don't quite agree with you there. Hallucinations would not allow you to see surgical instruments you've never seen before while your eyes are closed, and no blood is flowing to your brain. They wouldn't? I've had my eyes wide open before and seen things that weren't there - as a result of sleep deprivation - I think you underestimate the power of neurons to create! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euphgeek Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Near Death Experiences are hallucinations - nothing more. I don't quite agree with you there. Hallucinations would not allow you to see surgical instruments you've never seen before while your eyes are closed, and no blood is flowing to your brain. They wouldn't? I've had my eyes wide open before and seen things that weren't there - as a result of sleep deprivation - I think you underestimate the power of neurons to create! That's a bit different from seeing something that was actually there. Plus, with no blood flowing to the brain, how could neurons create anything? I've seen the arguments for and against NDEs and in my opinion the arguments for are stronger. However, it won't bother me if I'm someday proven wrong. My point is simply that believing in an afterlife is not necessarily unscientific nor is it only the domain of religionists and kooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friendly neighborhood atheist Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Rosa, After reading that you're feeling the stress of losing faith, I wanted to reach out to you personally. All doubters, agnostics and even the most hardened atheists (like me, LOL) have gone through that feeling of "loss". It's like coming down off a drug. It's like learning Santa Claus wasn't real. Something comforting and appealing has turned into something frightening and troubling, but only becuase the validity of the comforting, appealing thing is now in question. That's a good thing, and part of the normal process. Ever hear of fool's gold? Iron Pyrite? The people who believed it was gold were elated when they found it. They thought their lives were about to change, they were "saved"! They thought they were rich - happiness came with that belief, even before they WERE rich. All they had to do was believe they WOULD be. They simply were misinformed about what they had. When their error was pointed out, can you imagine the dissappointment and doubt? "What am I even out here in the wilderness prospecting in the first place?" The sense of loss, regret, even stupidity must have been devastating. Bad mood time! And all this because the truth was revealed to them. Their fantasy (the source of their hope) had been debunked. Sometimes the fantasy (or LIE) fosters a more desirable emotional state than reality or the truth does. Religion works the same way, it's a catastrophic OOPS of humankind, a throwback to a very VERY unenlightened time, where all that was not understood was explained by gods and demons. Religion is born of ignorance, hope and a lot of fear, as expressed through our species' greatest strength: IMAGINATION. Good-intentioned parents wanting the best for their children pass this virus of the mind along for the same reasons. The appeal of perception-altering drugs has the same kind of draw that religion does, so does alcohol. Escaping from reality can be fun. But when we prefer the fantasy -the lie-, to reality, no matter how unappealing that reality may be, we surrender REASON and LOGIC. Without these filters of thought, human beings proceed and act upon the real world around them from an errant starting point. All our interation with the world proceeds from this mistaken assumption. And if where you began was wrong, everything you build on it is likewise doomed. My background is in the sciences, as I put in my profile today. I know that if armageddon comes, it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. It will be the believers themselves that bring it about. Trouble is, there will be no one left to hear them say "I told you so". (Not even them - they just think they will be). So cry, weep for your lost security blanket as all of us have who have shed god and demon belief. It passes - and then it's ok. And soon, there's tremendous peace and assurance that you have it right after long last. "The meaning of life is to get one". (A bumper sticker I once saw). I for one would rather build my life on reality and truth, not hope, fear, fantasy or lies. I can tell you would too. That's why you doubt the claims you once believed in. They gave you peace and hope, but you know sense they were based on falshoods. It just hurts a little right now as you tear the security blanket away. It gets better - MUCH better, I'm happier as an atheist than I ever was as a believer. See you on the board, -Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 i actually had a NDE once, and i seen jesus, glory! and jesus told me that i had been aborted twice before recieving my current body! jesus told me that it really is okay to rape and molest little boys and girls. he also said that I was one of the very few people alive that will go to heaven cause i like to kill hookers and bury them in the desert. do you believe me??????? helter skelter is coming! R U ready? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 Ever since I started acknowledging that I'm losing belief, I've felt that God has got it in for me. This story made me think, "What if a similar thing happens to me?" I realize these experiences are pretty rare, but my fear and guilt have been increased thanks to this crap. Such is the power of jebus cultist brainwashing. I'll keep my that you'll get over it eventually. I guess I can't imagine how hard that must be, never having been a fundie myself... but still, I don't doubt that it can be done. I guess I can't be of much help, but if you think I can, let me know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 Friendlyneighborhoodatheist (hereinafter known as FNA) That was one kick-ass of a post. You get the thumbs-up du jour. Welcome to Ex-C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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