I Will Believe

[Guest bibleman]

Will I believe?

 

Taken from 1 Kings.

 

18:19 Now therefore send, [and] gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table.

18:20 So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel.

18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD [be] God, follow him: but if Baal, [then] follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

18:22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, [even] I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets [are] four hundred and fifty men.

18:23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay [it] on wood, and put no fire [under]: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay [it] on wood, and put no fire [under]:

18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

18:25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress [it] first; for ye [are] many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire [under].

18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed [it], and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But [there was] no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he [is] a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, [or] peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

18:29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the [time] of the offering of the [evening] sacrifice, that [there was] neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

18:30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD [that was] broken down.

18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

18:32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid [him] on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour [it] on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

18:34 And he said, Do [it] the second time. And they did [it] the second time. And he said, Do [it] the third time. And they did [it] the third time.

18:35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

18:36 And it came to pass at [the time of] the offering of the [evening] sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou [art] God in Israel, and [that] I [am] thy servant, and [that] I have done all these things at thy word.

18:37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou [art] the LORD God, and [that] thou hast turned their heart back again.

18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that [was] in the trench.

18:39 And when all the people saw [it], they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he [is] the God; the LORD, he [is] the God.

18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

 

With all the strife over whether or not Christians are correct in their faith, it seems that there would be one easy way to find out who is right and who is wrong. Who is serving the true and living God? Is God real?

 

Jesus says:

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

And

 

Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

And

 

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 

Christians that read this forum, adamantly defending your faith in Jesus Christ, the savior of your souls and indeed the salvation of all who believe in him, riddle me this…Why does God not fulfill His promises, even among those who believe?

 

What does Jesus mean when he says “When two or three are gathered in my name, there I am also?”

 

What does it mean when an entire congregation prays earnestly together for a fellow congregant’s child who is sick, that he/she be healed, and the suffering family be comforted….and the child gets worse…is hospitalized…and dies?

What does it mean when your mother and father are badly burned in a house fire, your younger sister dead…after years of prayer to bless them and keep them.

What does it mean when a family cries out to God for help after the bread-winner loses his/her job, only to find themselves out on the streets after actively seeking employment?

 

Jesus told certain of the scribes and Pharisees, “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it…”

 

However, this was to those who did not believe…..what of the promises cited earlier to those who DO believe? (its interesting to note that even though Jesus said this, he continued to perform miracles in front of believer and unbeliever alike…)

 

I submit that if Christians gathered together by the thousands and in one voice cried out to God to heal a man with leprosy or syphilis, the man would remain ill….but if one doctor with a syringe and the right medicine administered the drug, the sick would become healed.

[Raphael]

Will I believe?

 

Taken from 1 Kings.

 

18:19 Now therefore send, [and] gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table.

18:20 So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel.

18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD [be] God, follow him: but if Baal, [then] follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

18:22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, [even] I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets [are] four hundred and fifty men.

18:23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay [it] on wood, and put no fire [under]: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay [it] on wood, and put no fire [under]:

18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

18:25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress [it] first; for ye [are] many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire [under].

18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed [it], and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But [there was] no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he [is] a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, [or] peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

18:29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the [time] of the offering of the [evening] sacrifice, that [there was] neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

18:30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD [that was] broken down.

18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

18:32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid [him] on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour [it] on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

18:34 And he said, Do [it] the second time. And they did [it] the second time. And he said, Do [it] the third time. And they did [it] the third time.

18:35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

18:36 And it came to pass at [the time of] the offering of the [evening] sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou [art] God in Israel, and [that] I [am] thy servant, and [that] I have done all these things at thy word.

18:37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou [art] the LORD God, and [that] thou hast turned their heart back again.

18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that [was] in the trench.

18:39 And when all the people saw [it], they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he [is] the God; the LORD, he [is] the God.

18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

 

With all the strife over whether or not Christians are correct in their faith, it seems that there would be one easy way to find out who is right and who is wrong. Who is serving the true and living God? Is God real?

 

Jesus says:

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

And

 

Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

And

 

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 

Christians that read this forum, adamantly defending your faith in Jesus Christ, the savior of your souls and indeed the salvation of all who believe in him, riddle me this…Why does God not fulfill His promises, even among those who believe?

 

What does Jesus mean when he says “When two or three are gathered in my name, there I am also?”

 

What does it mean when an entire congregation prays earnestly together for a fellow congregant’s child who is sick, that he/she be healed, and the suffering family be comforted….and the child gets worse…is hospitalized…and dies?

What does it mean when your mother and father are badly burned in a house fire, your younger sister dead…after years of prayer to bless them and keep them.

What does it mean when a family cries out to God for help after the bread-winner loses his/her job, only to find themselves out on the streets after actively seeking employment?

 

Jesus told certain of the scribes and Pharisees, “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it…”

 

However, this was to those who did not believe…..what of the promises cited earlier to those who DO believe? (its interesting to note that even though Jesus said this, he continued to perform miracles in front of believer and unbeliever alike…)

 

I submit that if Christians gathered together by the thousands and in one voice cried out to God to heal a man with leprosy or syphilis, the man would remain ill….but if one doctor with a syringe and the right medicine administered the drug, the sick would become healed.

[Raphael]

Greetings Bibleman

 

Sorry I messed up your thread with that double post. Don't know what happened, if you can tell me how to erase it I will.

 

It's funny that I just made my first post and went to browse and this was the first message I read. I am not sure I have an answer to your question, but I have a theory.

 

~ We dwell in a sick, evil world and I give thanks to Him-Who-Is for providing a rescue. The sad part is that it won't fully manifest until all that is perishable dissolves.

 

I think that a time has been set ~ otherwise the shaking of the dark powers that be, would be fatal to us. Although it we may not see it ~ it must be a perfect plan.

 

Peace ~ Raphael

[Lizard]

And you get this insight from...where? Rapheal?

[scepticjoe]

 

~ We dwell in a sick, evil world and I give thanks to Him-Who-Is for providing a rescue. The sad part is that it won't fully manifest until all that is perishable dissolves.

 

I think that a time has been set ~ otherwise the shaking of the dark powers that be, would be fatal to us. Although it we may not see it ~ it must be a perfect plan.

 

Peace ~ Raphael

 

I thank you for your theory, but do you have any evidence that Him-Who-Is actually exists? Otherwise, Him-Who-Is is only speculation. Now if you would produce some miracles, like described above, I would be impressed.

[Guest bibleman]

That does seem to be the problem.

The proof is in the pudding, right?

 

The bible makes some pretty outrageous claims, but absolutely NONE of it is substantiated, either historically or through the actions of christian followers; past or present.

It is not enough to simply say, "I believe."

That is the worse kind of cop-out. One I personally used for years and felt absolutely justified in doing until I started using my brain.

 

Really, I find it funny when people single out select christian "ministers" such as Benny Hinn and try to debunk his miracles...

The problem is much bigger than just the one man.

My big brother, an ordained minister, asked me once what it would take for me to believe in God again. At the time, I didn't have an answer for him. But after thinking it through, I'd have to say that a test like the one I eluded to earlier would be about the only thing that would do it for me...

However, lets take it a bit further and include a group of Muslims, Hindus, Satanists, Catholics, Baptists, Jews and select members of every sect of christendom possible. Have them all, in their turn, use their various methods to heal the sick through faith or ritual.

Nothing would happen...that is until our friendly doctor walks up to the stage and gave the healing injection.

[Mythra]

That reminded me of Lance Armstrong.

 

It was so refreshing to see a prominent figure like him giving credit to modern medicine, research, and his doctors for curing him of cancer.

 

What a breath of fresh air, compared to so much of the rest of the world you see.

 

A guy can't even catch a touchdown pass these days without giving the credit to Jesus.

[Raphael]

I guess I've also seen enough "Unsolved Miracles" to be skeptical myself, but at the same time I don't feel like I need any evidence of a good God. I've had enough experience to know that something deeper than what we see exists. Also, there's that "intuition" of knowing that you know, that you know, that you know. Simple as that for me.

 

Liz ~ I think alot of the views of the christian world are distorted. I think they will be "ashamed of their prophecies in those (these) days". I've just been looking at the things I've been taught in a different way. (a mind renewal, I hope). All of the promises are eternal. Not for this life. We have hope because of the prize set before us. And the way we suffer? Life sucks, then you die!

 

P>S> Many of my "christian" friends think I'm a bit pessimistic. Imagine that...

[SkepticOfBible]

Liz ~ I think alot of the views of the christian world are distorted.

And how do you know your view is not distorted?What makes you immune from the same mistakes that other christians are making?

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Also, there's that "intuition" of knowing that you know, that you know, that you know. Simple as that for me.

Doesn't it worry you that this is the same reason given by Mormons and Muslims and Catholics and New Age practioners? They all have strong feelings and intuitions that they are right. Yet they can't all be right, and very probably all are wrong.

 

Why do you think that your intuition is to be trusted, yet you discount the intuition of hundreds of millions of other religions who disagree with you?

[Raphael]

My views ~ May be distorted, I don't recall claiming that they weren't. I did describe them as bizzare and off-the-wall. I also wonder if anyone, myself included, is ever going to figure it all out.

 

I've always been passionate about my feelings. Even if they were contrary to those around me, including family. I guess in general, I feel; to stand for something is better then being vulnerable to fall for anything.

 

I am passionate in my belief that a good God exists.

 

You are passionate about believing that one doesn't.

 

Aren't we sort of in the same boat? And please believe I'm not here to rock it.

 

With love ~ Raphael

[Thackerie]

I also wonder if anyone, myself included, is ever going to figure it all out.

 

When my niece was a mere tiny tot who had come over to my house for lunch after a boring, confusing morning in sunday school, she asked "How can Jesus be god and the son of god at the same time." Not being a christian and therefore feeling no compulsion to impose my views on her, I told her that would be a good question to ask her ss teacher next time and in an aside to her mother I said, "She'll figure it out later." To which her mom, also no christian fanatic, replied: "If she does, she'll get a Nobel prize."

 

In other words, it's like the militant agnostic said: "I don't know. And you don't either." In fact, no body really KNOWS whether god exists and, if so, what is the nature of that god. But, one thing we do know for sure is that every word ever written or said about god came from the mind of humans ... imperfect, often illogical humans, many with a political position to push or some other less than glorious motivation. Given this one fact is enough to convince me that the god of the bible is a fiction at best and a fraud at worse.

 

Like you, I'd like to believe in the existence of a good god, but I don't see any evidence of that either. So, really, all I can truthfully say is, "I don't know. And you don't either."

[SkepticOfBible]

You are passionate about believing that one doesn't.

Wrong again, my friend. I am quite open to possibility that a God might exist, but if he does exist then it is certainly not the christian god. Just as I don't believe that God is Allah