saxyroze Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 I know this is usual a place to rant on anything Christian but I need to rant on Judaism. I don’t understand how the Jews can believe that their Messiah is yet to come. I was reading the requirements for their Messiah and why they reject Jesus…and shit, just looking at the requirements boggles my mind. No one, divine or not, can actually achieve everything on that list. He must be Jewish He must be a member of the tribe of Judah He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem He will rule at a time of world-wide peace He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah”. http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/gene...h-criteria.html --Is there still a tribe of Judah? --How can anyone completely prove that he is a true descendant of King David and King Solomon? I never really read the linage in the bible when I was a Christian because it bored the hell out of me…so I’m not sure what the bible has to say about that family line. --There well never be world-wide peace. The world is too big and too complicated to actually be in complete peace. --Lastly, the world will never agree on just “one” god to serve. There are too many religions and too many conflicting cultures in the world. The Christians will always serve their god, Jews will always serve their god, the Muslims will always serve Allah, and so on. No one will drop their god just to follow the Jewish god. Anyways, I don’t know much about the Jewish religion so maybe my ignorance in that area makes me biased but I just think the Jews should just say, “Well, he’s never coming so we should just except that Jesus dude as our Messiah.” Not that I want to spread Christianity…it’s just, I think if you’re going to believe in a savior, might as will believe in the one that already came, saved and died. Or just drop the faith all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luck Mermaid Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Over a year ago there was a huge war here, in which I took part bceause some people were saying `maybe Jews deserve to be harmed`because we are historically persecuted so there must be a good reason for it. I`ve been thinking about that war lately... Anyhow, as a Jew, I know very little about the religion since I`m mostly a Jew tribally not so much religiously. I can`t answer your questions, but I can tell you that there are a lot of apologetics in Torah study from what I`m reading (a book about reincarnated holocaust victims by a Hasidic rabbi). Some Jews take the torah as metaphor in part or whole, and there are many different schools, there`s probably one or more who DON`T believe `the messiah`is going to come, but it`s a common belief. As someone who has deconverted and knows fundy nuts, or even just people who are good hearted but like to believe in their Jeez, you ought to know that many groups believe many things, whether based on logic or not. Now add people trying to `exterminate` you and torturing and murdering you for over a thousand years, and the recent holocaust - people will hold on to tradition whether they believe it or not. It`s not uncommon to hear Jews say they need to marry another Jew, even if secular, because they don`t want to allow themselves to be assimilated and their traditions killed. Really, living in America and knowing how people think today, what makes you think Jews are going to be more rational? And those are just the North American and middle -upper class ones. The poor ones are going to hold on to the believe come hell or high water (which they already have, in waves) because that ALL THEY HAVE. Plus even if a lot of it is bullshit, it`s pretty cool that people have been able to keep such good records of their history and such strong traditional ties in the face of such opposition, you gotta admit. Some of it might be relevant today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxyroze Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 Just for the record I wasn’t indicating anything about the holocaust by any means. Persecution didn’t even come to my mind. I’m sorry if I offended you are anyone else. I was just trying to understand how a Jew could believe that. And I do understand that religious people of all religions hold irrational beliefs...that's what religion is. I'm just trying to figure it all out in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luck Mermaid Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 I wasn`t offended, at least maybe I was a little but tthat`s because I recognize the thinking in myself (I`m a recovering racist). In general I felt that your question was.... interesting ac tually. I was going to say quite understandable, but I think interesting is better, because you come to such obvious conclusions about why Christians cling to Christianity, but didn`t see that Jews might cling to the religious aspects of our culture for the same reasons - in fact moreso because our `persecution`is very real compared to most American Christians who in the second half of the century have unlikely seen a `persecuting`day in their lives. I brought up the holocaust, I was just mentioning it to give reference to where my opinions are coming from because the rabbi who wrote it talks about this stuff but frames it around a discussion of reincarnated Holocaust victims, particularly children. Yes, there was a HUGE war here a while ago. If you`ll notice, this thread has s tayed pretty quiet because we don`t really want another one. But I wasn`t really offended and the little that I was offended at is part of a broad sense of offense I carry, nothing specific. In fact, until you said you didn`t mean to offend me, I didn`t even realize I`d been upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 LuckyMermaid.. Can I respectfully ask you a few questions about the Jewish faith? I am not coming from any other position other than wanting to learn Its only been recently that I have started to look at the history of the Bible canon etc. This was an eye opener ! One thing that struck me about the OT was that God gave his people - the Jews - many laws etc but didn't make it clear that keeping these laws would keep them from Hell or get them into Heaven. The heaven hell thing seems to be mostly a NT teaching but you would think would be an important issue before that So as Jews take the OT (mostly) as their scripture do Jews believe in Heaven and Hell - I mean officially? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 The Jewish Messiah will be just a man, a great Leader like Moses or David but a man never the less. Also It is said that for each generation their is a potential messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Hi Robert, I know that you are not asking me this but I did learn a couple of things about Jewish beliefs before exiting Christianity. They have there sects just like most other religions. There are Torah Observant Jews who reject the prophets because the prophecies did not happen. They do not believe in an afterlife. Many other Jews are Torah observant and awaiting the promised Messiah but do not believe in eternal heaven nor hell but rather in a peaceful earth, one of which god is running. I believe it is the Torah Observant, waiting for Messiah, TALMUDIC observant Jews that there is an afterlife belief, one in heaven and then a hell but that version (from my understanding) is more of a temporal cleansing punishment and then you can be accepted into heaven. That of course come from Zoroastrinism beliefs. Two different Torah Obsevant waiting for the Messiah Jewish Rabbis told me that they do not believe in an afterlife and that all a gentile needed to do in order to be acceptable to god was observe the Noahide Laws. Hope that enlightens you a little. BTW...Jewish Rabbis are VERY OPEN with people having questions, so long is there is NO TALK of trying to convert them to Christianity. They will drop the conversation in a heartbeat (understably so) if you tell them that they need Jesus. Thanks Serene - an answer from anyone is appreciated. I asked because from my (probably poor) knowledge of the OT I cannot remeber hell / afterlife being stressed at all. I'll have to read up about this Where does it specifically say there is a hell and that the law will save you from it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luck Mermaid Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 I'm know very little about the culture, and less so about the religion. Ask rabbis. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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