Sin Before The Fall...major Problem With Blaming Sin On Man......

[Guest SereneAspiration]

Sub_Zero has claimed that it is mans fault for bringing sin into the world, he/she claims that man "created" the sinful world we live in with wrongful use of freewill. However, there are several HUGE problems with that......

 

1. If man is responsible for sin; from where did the evil serpent come from?

2. How could there have been sin before man screwed it all up in the Garden of Eden?

3. Sinning Angels....Free will in heaven and not the glorious place you think that it is?

 

You see, literalists, if you believe that man created sin, then I'd love to hear your apologetic mental gymnastics explanation of how there could have been sin in heaven if ALL was good according to god.

 

Keep in mind that you say sin doesn't enter UNTIL the fall of man. Now, why would angels (being in the presence of the almighty) sin in heaven? Even more importantly, if not even ANGELS (who btw, are with Jesus all day) can't get it right....why the heck would god make fallible man and then throw evil Satan down there to tempt Adam and Eve? This is the equivelant of me bringing a child rapist into my home to babysit. WHERE IS THE LOVE SUB_ZERO? Would you PURPOSEFULLY leave your child in danger like that? I sure wouldn't.

[Lycorth]

Sub_Zero has claimed that it is mans fault for bringing sin into the world, he/she claims that man "created" the sinful world we live in with wrongful use of freewill. However, there are several HUGE problems with that......

 

1. If man is responsible for sin; from where did the evil serpent come from?

2. How could there have been sin before man screwed it all up in the Garden of Eden?

3. Sinning Angels....Free will in heaven and not the glorious place you think that it is?

 

You see, literalists, if you believe that man created sin, then I'd love to hear your apologetic mental gymnastics explanation of how there could have been sin in heaven if ALL was good according to god.

 

Keep in mind that you say sin doesn't enter UNTIL the fall of man. Now, why would angels (being in the presence of the almighty) sin in heaven? Even more importantly, if not even ANGELS (who btw, are with Jesus all day) can't get it right....why the heck would god make fallible man and then throw evil Satan down there to tempt Adam and Eve? This is the equivelant of me bringing a child rapist into my home to babysit. WHERE IS THE LOVE SUB_ZERO? Would you PURPOSEFULLY leave your child in danger like that? I sure wouldn't.

 

Precisely!

 

Xians will say that the devil introduced sin and man just accepted it. Of course, this flies in the face of their anti-human rantings that man introduced sin into the Garden in the first place - after all if they posit that, then it's the devil's fault sin entered into the world and not man's. Then, there'd be no need for Jeezus and his blooooooooooooood to wash us clean and no need to sell our souls to Jeezus. It has to be our fault straight off, you see.

 

Of course, how could angels even want to sin if they were singing HOLAH HOLAH HOLAH 24/7? Evidently, as you said, heaven must suck donkey balls if that's the case, huh?

 

And of course, one of the biggest reasons I am an ex-xian is that it is utterly stupid beyond belief to posit that an all-knowing and all-loving god would've allowed the devil to survive his rebellion and roam freely down here, knowing how many of us would be tempted and led astray. It's just like putting a rabid animal in your childrens' playpen and then getting mad at the children when they get bitten and infected.

 

There are holes in the Babble big enough to stick your head through if you tried - and the above are but only a few of them. Xians, any remarks?

[Anakin]

Sub_Zero has claimed that it is mans fault for bringing sin into the world, he/she claims that man "created" the sinful world we live in with wrongful use of freewill. However, there are several HUGE problems with that......

 

1. If man is responsible for sin; from where did the evil serpent come from?

2. How could there have been sin before man screwed it all up in the Garden of Eden?

3. Sinning Angels....Free will in heaven and not the glorious place you think that it is?

 

You see, literalists, if you believe that man created sin, then I'd love to hear your apologetic mental gymnastics explanation of how there could have been sin in heaven if ALL was good according to god.

 

Keep in mind that you say sin doesn't enter UNTIL the fall of man. Now, why would angels (being in the presence of the almighty) sin in heaven? Even more importantly, if not even ANGELS (who btw, are with Jesus all day) can't get it right....why the heck would god make fallible man and then throw evil Satan down there to tempt Adam and Eve? This is the equivelant of me bringing a child rapist into my home to babysit. WHERE IS THE LOVE SUB_ZERO? Would you PURPOSEFULLY leave your child in danger like that? I sure wouldn't.

This will be a piece of cake for SZ. Let's see if I can summarize. You don't understand.

You don't understand correctly. You won't understand. You can't understand.

My interpetation is correct. God's will. God is love. Jesus is love. Free will. Choice.

All these assertions will be unsubstantiated. Then will proceed to ignore good points.

And then reassert the above.

Have I missed any?

[mwc]

This is something that I've been thinking about lately and I almost started a similar thread.

 

I think god just got mad at us because we're the second set of "perfect" beings that told him to go stuff it.

 

Sin, or more precisely, evil, comes directly from god himself. Jesus betrays his father on a couple of these issues. The lords prayer states that gods will is always done in heaven. Jesus also says that thinking something bad is as bad as doing that something (too bad thinking something good isn't the same as doing good...but by "god" logic it should be).

 

So, to know of evil one must be aware of evil through thought. God knows of evil and therefore he thinks of evil. So god is guilty of doing all evils (I hope he remembers to repent to himself so he doesn't end up in hell...the ultimate irony). Also, the devil would not have knowledge of evil in and of himself so the concept would have had to come from the only place that knew of evil and that would be god. Since god's will is always done in heaven, the fall of the devil and all the angels could only have happened if it were the will of god and no other way (since, as I stated, "god" himself in the form of jesus defines how things work in heaven). God confirms this since the Tree of Knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL exists before man does and when A&E take the fruit god proclaims that we are like them knowing of both good and evil. Had evil not originated with god then the tree could have only been known as the Tree of Knowledge of GOOD as god is supposedly only pure goodness.

 

It's quite clear that god is the origin of evil. He then willed the devil and angels to have this knowledge and allowed a rebellion to occur. They are tossed out of heaven, where god's will is always done and sent to earth where "free will" supposedly reigns. A small garden is created where the knowledge of good and evil placed in a tree. He then allowed the snake (who xians say is the devil) to tempt Eve and she in turn tempts Adam however without the knowledge of good and evil prior to the eating of the fruit they could not know what they were doing was "wrong," and, since they're supposedly perfect the taking of the fruit was the perfect choice. Their "free will" is punished by tossing A&E out into the "bad" part of the perfect creation of earth (shouldn't the whole earth have been a paradise?).

 

To escape these, and other, little "problems" you need to hold god to a lower standard than we, and the devil, are held to. This is absurd. The most ultimate being ever should be held to the highest standard ever but it's not since it can't live up to its own hype. Of course if you don't believe the story, or take it literally, then there's really no problem at all.

 

mwc

[mwc]

I'm starting to have a real problem with an "all-knowing" being as well. How did he aquire this knowledge? There's the tired xian example of finding a watch in the forest. It had to be made. Quite true, but did the watch maker just "have" that knowledge or was it passed on via trial and error by those that came before? We are to assume that god, unlike this fictional watch maker, had knowledge of everything that we call the universe and simply got it "right" on the first try? I would say that "sin" and "evil" show that, if this is the first attempt by god, he didn't quite hit the mark himself since the bible clearly shows that it's going to take another "creation" to remove evil from things.

 

I have more problems with the watch maker analogy since it assumes that the person walking through the forest has knowledge of what is natural verses man-made. If you had no knowledge of either you wouldn't be so quick to know that watches don't somehow grow in forests. Since we have no knowledge of super-natural verses natural it is impossible for us to point out what is and is not natural. The dual role of observer in this forest and as the watch being observed requires a shift of perspective that cannot be made and keep the integrity of the story (the observer requires the "god" perspective to know what is from "god" and what is not).

 

Also, the thing about god existing for an eternity prior to creating things is a bit of a problem really. Since time did not exist prior to being created god could have existed forever or for only the smallest measure of "time" since without a unit of measure they are the same. This also means that the afterlife could be both eternal and some small fraction of a second since time would not exist. Now by our definition of time nothing could have happened before time since time is required for any to actually happen but we're talking about "god" and super-natural special cases so it doesn't matter what reality happens to be.

 

So I have problems with an all knowing god since, in addition to what I've already said, the OT shows that god doesn't know everything or that he "plays dumb" on occasion. He didn't know where A&E were. He didn't know, until the ground told him, that Cain killed Abel. He had to take a look at the Tower of Babel. He had to visit Sodom and Gamorah (sp?) in person. God clearly did not know everything and wasn't everywhere at the beginning of the story like he is now. He could be reasoned with unlike now. He could be fought to the point of cheating (Jacob wrestled him until god magically hurt him in order to win) unlike now. He respected those who challenged him despite their shortcomings (Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jacob, David, and so on) unlike now (don't even think of questioning god about anything).

 

So many problems with this god. Unfortunately the whole mess starts at the same place the bible does and that is "in the beginning...imperfect men tried to create a perfect god and failed."

 

mwc

 

P.S. Sorry, I got a little side-tracked. It's just that Genesis provides so much to discredit it's own god it's hard to keep from rambling on and on.

[Eponymic]

I'm talking to myself right now as these things keep coming into mind....LOL

 

Nope, I'm with you.

 

The thing that gets me is how can you have a creator, who is responsible for creating man and the world, and suddenly not have them responsible for the things that come from within them?

 

Because everything that is within us, was created, by him.

 

It's pretty simple really.

[Anakin]

The thing that gets me is how can you have a creator, who is responsible for creating man and the world, and suddenly not have them responsible for the things that come from within them?

 

Because everything that is within us, was created, by him.

 

It's pretty simple really.

You're right it really is simple. As far as I can tell in order to excuse gawd from fault

the fundie must redefine words such as love, knowledge and responsibility.

Take the new definitions out beyond man's comprehension into the unknowable.

Then assign this unknowable trait to their god. Having robbed the words of any

true meaning, they can use the new improved word (such as love) to mean whatever

they mentally need it to mean.

[Gobbler]

MWC wrote: So, to know of evil one must be aware of evil through thought. God knows of evil and therefore he thinks of evil. So god is guilty of doing all evils (I hope he remembers to repent to himself so he doesn't end up in hell...the ultimate irony).

 

Actually, the biblegod will be residing in his created hell. According to fundies he is omnipresent afterall. He will be the overseer and an occupant, torturing himself. Hey, he did it before with himself on a stick!

[NotBlinded]

Sub_Zero has claimed that it is mans fault for bringing sin into the world, he/she claims that man "created" the sinful world we live in with wrongful use of freewill.

Serene, you know what's so damn funny? I know you're with me here...he is absolutely correct!

[jrmarlin]

Sub_Zero has claimed that it is mans fault for bringing sin into the world, he/she claims that man "created" the sinful world we live in with wrongful use of freewill.

 

If it's free will then how can it be wrongfully used? Free Will is Free Will.

 

See this is a grave problem with Xians. Their arguments seldom have any logical or reasonably deductible ends. And they wonder why their Cult is becoming more and more extinct. Go figure!!!!

[NotBlinded]

Sub_Zero has claimed that it is mans fault for bringing sin into the world, he/she claims that man "created" the sinful world we live in with wrongful use of freewill.

Serene, you know what's so damn funny? I know you're with me here...he is absolutely correct!

 

Oh NO! LOL...Well, I'm a little like Open_Minded in that sometimes things just fly over my head. Alright...let me take a stab at this...

 

He's right because man is the one who created sin in religion? No need for a god to do it, man did that well on their own...came up with a little lists of do's and don'ts and labeled some of those have a nice little "sin" label attached.

Yes! The way the world is is because of what people believe about themselves and others. If they believe they are sinful, or they label someone else as sinful, the result is sin!

 

It really goes a little further, IMO...if we look at sin as 'missing the mark', it means nothing more than not living up to our full potential as loving beings. This indeed creates hell on earth because we follow our egos that tells us that we are worse than that person or better than another person. This causes division and hatred. It is the perfectly natural outcome of beliefs in life. No god outside or demon inside. One could look at it as if God is love and Satan is the ego. Both a product of ourselves. It's just us (although I do believe in a higher consiousness that is in each of us).

 

Freewill can't exist if one is controlled by their ego. They are in the backseat and their minds are driving, whereas, they should be the driver of the mind. As Jesus says, "Get thee behind me Satan" I'm driving! Well he didn't say the last part, but you know what I mean!

[SkepticOfBible]

I think the verse which destroys the idea of free will is

 

Eph 1:4-5,11

According as he(God) hath chosen us(believers) in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In whom also we(believers) have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him(God) who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

 

http://www.geocities.com/b_r_a_d_99/perfection.htm

[Who?]

1. If man is responsible for sin; from where did the evil serpent come from?

2. How could there have been sin before man screwed it all up in the Garden of Eden?

3. Sinning Angels....Free will in heaven and not the glorious place you think that it is?

 

 

 

I realize this is not directed at me, but I hope you don't mind if I add some of my beliefs.

 

Just curious, I have never heard of the idea that our free will is dissolved in heaven. Why would this be?

 

As for point 2, yes and no, on earth there could be no sin as there was not the necessary knowledge for that. (the tree adam partook of was the knowledge of good and evil. Adam did not know better - thus it wasn't really a sin but a transgression.)

 

As for the yes part and your 1st point. We are told that there was war in heaven and the dragon was cast out (Revelations somewhere) with a third of the hosts of heaven.

[Kuroikaze]

1. If man is responsible for sin; from where did the evil serpent come from?

2. How could there have been sin before man screwed it all up in the Garden of Eden?

3. Sinning Angels....Free will in heaven and not the glorious place you think that it is?

 

 

 

I realize this is not directed at me, but I hope you don't mind if I add some of my beliefs.

 

Just curious, I have never heard of the idea that our free will is dissolved in heaven. Why would this be?

 

As for point 2, yes and no, on earth there could be no sin as there was not the necessary knowledge for that. (the tree adam partook of was the knowledge of good and evil. Adam did not know better - thus it wasn't really a sin but a transgression.)

 

As for the yes part and your 1st point. We are told that there was war in heaven and the dragon was cast out (Revelations somewhere) with a third of the hosts of heaven.

 

Ok, I'll bite,

 

First, if it is not possible to sin in heaven then free will must be suspended, if it is posible to sin in heaven then heaven can not be perfect by the christian standard.

 

2nd, a transgresion is defined as the breaking of a law...I fail to see how this greatly differers from a sin...in any case it still does not explain how one could reasonable expect Adam to know breaking the rules was wrong. He had no knowledge of good an evil.

 

3rd....ok how could there be a war in heaven if God is omnipotent? This really makes no sence to me at all, why would he have his angels fight the rebelious angels when he could just snap his fingers and it would be over....in fact why would satan rebel in the first place if he knew he couldn't win? it only makes sence if god is not omnipotent.

[Asimov]

Ok, I'll bite,

 

First, if it is not possible to sin in heaven then free will must be suspended, if it is posible to sin in heaven then heaven can not be perfect by the christian standard.

 

Since when does free will = the ability to sin? And even if it is, the mere possibility of choice of doing wrong is all that is needed. If, as Christianity states we are made perfect in order to enter into heaven, then we will not sin because we are perfect.

[Eponymic]

As for point 2, yes and no, on earth there could be no sin as there was not the necessary knowledge for that. (the tree adam partook of was the knowledge of good and evil. Adam did not know better - thus it wasn't really a sin but a transgression.)

 

That's one heck of a severe punishment then for what isn't even a sin but a mere transgression!

 

All of man is screwed because he didn't know any better? What the heck.

 

And besides. Why create man without that knowledge, and then set him up to get that knowledge, and punish him for it?

 

I'll reiterate my argument that I've mentioned in other places. If God created man, and therefore everything within him, he's responsible for setting man up to fall. It's not the man's fault for doing what is in his nature. Especially when he supposedly doesn't know that its wrong!

[Kuroikaze]

Ok, I'll bite,

 

First, if it is not possible to sin in heaven then free will must be suspended, if it is posible to sin in heaven then heaven can not be perfect by the christian standard.

 

Since when does free will = the ability to sin? And even if it is, the mere possibility of choice of doing wrong is all that is needed. If, as Christianity states we are made perfect in order to enter into heaven, then we will not sin because we are perfect.

 

 

That kind of perfection sounds more like a labotomy to me

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I've never seen a way to define perfection in any meaningful way.

 

If you ask me 'perfect' is a nonsense word because it presuposes a standard which is unprovable logicly and has never been observed.

[Who?]

As for point 2, yes and no, on earth there could be no sin as there was not the necessary knowledge for that. (the tree adam partook of was the knowledge of good and evil. Adam did not know better - thus it wasn't really a sin but a transgression.)

 

That's one heck of a severe punishment then for what isn't even a sin but a mere transgression!

 

All of man is screwed because he didn't know any better? What the heck.

 

And besides. Why create man without that knowledge, and then set him up to get that knowledge, and punish him for it?

 

I'll reiterate my argument that I've mentioned in other places. If God created man, and therefore everything within him, he's responsible for setting man up to fall. It's not the man's fault for doing what is in his nature. Especially when he supposedly doesn't know that its wrong!

 

I don't view the fall as a punishment. It is an opportunity!

 

And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

(emphasis mine)

 

Blessed be the name of God, for because of [his] transgression [our] eyes are opened, and in this life [we] shall have joy, and again in the flesh [we] shall see God.

... Were it not for [their] transgression [we] never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

.

 

Combine this with proper understanding of the redemption made by the Christ and we can begin to understand our purpose on this earth. Even if we do not always understand the minor details.

[Kuroikaze]

 

I don't view the fall as a punishment. It is an opportunity!

 

 

 

thats funny cause God calls it a punisment....besides opportunity to what? Be sent to hell for eternity? I guess I should just fall to my knees right now and thank god for giving me the opportunity to be punished eternaly because I can't bring myself to worship the sadisctic son of a bitch

[Eponymic]

I don't view the fall as a punishment. It is an opportunity!

 

That's a mighty optimistic outlook.

 

Though it still doesn't excuse things. Great, an opportunity to get back to exactly where we were. All this just for God's amusement? That's basically what's happening if we go along with the Adam & Eve story. God could have given us exactly what we needed in the first place, but chose not to, instead he decided to play around with us. Whatever reason he decided to do it, it's still mean. Because he's penalizing us for his mistake. Or you could say we're being given the opportunity to play God's game which he put us at a disadvantage to play from the get go.

[Kuroikaze]

 

Combine this with proper understanding of the redemption made by the Christ and we can begin to understand our purpose on this earth. Even if we do not always understand the minor details.

 

 

yes...the genocide of entire nations is clearly a MINOR detail....what could I have been thinking

[Asimov]

That kind of perfection sounds more like a labotomy to me

 

Why? We would always make the right choices because we are unable to make wrong choices...that sounds. Perfect; without flaw.

 

If you ask me 'perfect' is a nonsense word because it presuposes a standard which is unprovable logicly and has never been observed.

 

No it hasn't, and yes it is pretty much a nonsense word.

[Kuroikaze]

 

 

 

I guess I'm not explaining this very well....let me try again

 

I think, theologicly speaking, that sin is essentally disobeying god, so in order to have true freedom from the biblical point of view we must be able to chose to obey or not obey god.

 

In fact this is generally how christians explain why god allows suffering, by saying that God wants us to freely choose to worship him, because if it weren't freely given worship then it woudn't mean anything to him.

 

So....if in heaven we loose the ability to chose anything else over God, then the essense of what makes God give us free will is gone...and by the "logic" of christian apologetics all our worship of God in heaven won't mean anything to him because it will no longer be given freely. If there isn't at least a posibility that we could choose something else besides god then we become nothing more than 'god praising robots for Jesus'

 

Of course on top of this Satan supposedly chooses something besides god even though he is in heaven, though the bible IMO doesn't actually say that satan was a fallen angel...but then its just a discussion of mythology anyway, about as meaningful as discussing the shinto moon god and sun goddess, only not as fun.

 

maybe I explained that a bit more clearly this time

[Asimov]

I guess I'm not explaining this very well....let me try again

 

If we are perfect yet still have the ability to choose we will always choose the correct option, which would be to obey God.

[Kuroikaze]

I guess I'm not explaining this very well....let me try again

 

If we are perfect yet still have the ability to choose we will always choose the correct option, which would be to obey God.

 

but satan was an angel and chose to disobey, where does that leave xian theology?