An Interesting Find Regarding Thomas Jefferson

[jrmarlin]

I thought you all would appreciate these two quotes from Thomas Jefferson (a Free Mason / Spiritualist) who happened to pen our Declaration of Independence as well as contributed heavily to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

 

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

 

Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.

 

 

The man was a genius. Thomas Jefferson, YOU ROCK!

So Xians, this land you live in and enjoy the First Amendment Right of FREE SPEECH, is what it is because of Thomas Jefferson and his fellow "Free Masons and Spiritualists." I think you all need to get with the fucking program.

 

To everyone else, I'll keep mining for quotes regarding the founding fathers and their views on this "perverted system" called Xianity.

[jrmarlin]

A great read for everyone:

 

The Christian Nation Myth

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/far..._till/myth.html

 

A quote:

These beliefs were forcefully articulated by Thomas Paine in Age of Reason, a book that so outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by the nation that had once revered him as "the father of the American Revolution." To this day, many mistakenly consider him an atheist, even though he was an out spoken defender of the Deistic view of God. Other important founding fathers who espoused Deism were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe.

 

Fundamentalist Christians are currently working overtime to convince the American public that the founding fathers intended to establish this country on "biblical principles," but history simply does not support their view. The men mentioned above and others who were instrumental in the founding of our nation were in no sense Bible-believing Christians. Thomas Jefferson, in fact, was fiercely anti-cleric. In a letter to Horatio Spafford in 1814, Jefferson said, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes" (George Seldes, The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey Citadel Press, 1983, p. 371). In a letter to Mrs. Harrison Smith, he wrote, "It is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read. By the same test the world must judge me. But this does not satisfy the priesthood. They must have a positive, a declared assent to all their interested absurdities. My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest" (August 6, 1816).

 

Jefferson was just as suspicious of the traditional belief that the Bible is "the inspired word of God." He rewrote the story of Jesus as told in the New Testament and compiled his own gospel version known as The Jefferson Bible, which eliminated all miracles attributed to Jesus and ended with his burial. The Jeffersonian gospel account contained no resurrection, a twist to the life of Jesus that was considered scandalous to Christians but perfectly sensible to Jefferson's Deistic mind. In a letter to John Adams, he wrote, "To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise" (August 15, 1820). In saying this, Jefferson was merely expressing the widely held Deistic view of his time, which rejected the mysticism of the Bible and relied on natural law and human reason to explain why the world is as it is. Writing to Adams again, Jefferson said, "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" (April 11, 1823). These were hardly the words of a devout Bible-believer.

 

Jefferson didn't just reject the Christian belief that the Bible was "the inspired word of God"; he rejected the Christian system too. In Notes on the State of Virginia, he said of this religion, "There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites" (quoted by newspaper columnist William Edelen, "Politics and Religious Illiteracy," Truth Seeker, Vol. 121, No. 3, p. 33). Anyone today who would make a statement like this or others we have quoted from Jefferson's writings would be instantly branded an infidel, yet modern Bible fundamentalists are frantically trying to cast Jefferson in the mold of a Bible believing Christian. They do so, of course, because Jefferson was just too important in the formation of our nation to leave him out if Bible fundamentalists hope to sell their "Christian-nation" claim to the public. Hence, they try to rewrite history to make it appear that men like Thomas Jefferson had intended to build our nation on "biblical principles." The irony of this situation is that the Christian leaders of Jefferson's time knew where he stood on "biblical principles," and they fought desperately, but unsuccessfully, to prevent his election to the presidency. Saul K. Padover's biography related the bitterness of the opposition that the clergy mounted against Jefferson in the campaign of 1800

 

The religious issue was dragged out, and stirred up flames of hatred and intolerance. Clergymen, mobilizing their heaviest artillery of thunder and brimstone, threatened Christians with all manner of dire consequences if they should vote for the "in fidel" from Virginia. This was particularly true in New England, where the clergy stood like Gibraltar against Jefferson (

Jefferson A Great American's Life and Ideas

, Mentor Books, 1964, p.116)."

 

 

 

 

Another great read:

 

Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church

Ed and Michael Buckner

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_...quotations.html

[webmdave]

Here are some of my favorite quotes of his: link

[jrmarlin]

Another good Read:

 

The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians

http://dim.com/~randl/founders.htm

 

This page contains excerpts as it goes through people like Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, Allen et. al. to explain their individual belief systems -- some as well as some quotes from these men regarding Christianity and Spiritualism.

 

 

Here are some of my favorite quotes of his: link

 

That is beautiful. Thank you for sharing those. I had not seen them on this site. YOU ROCK!

[Lycorth]

Thomas Jefferson and the rest of the Fathers are why I still consider myself patriotic; to know and understand the true principles upon which America was founded makes me feel a sense of pride, and a sense of sadness at the same time. Pride, of course, because as a Deist it is special to know that other like-minded freethinkers had the true hand to play in writing the Constitution - but sad because so much of that has been forgotten today. So few people really understand the true principles of America, and to see the Xian Right ™ try to hijack the truth of history is a sham.

 

I was right on their side at one point. I fell for the Xian America myth, hook and line and sucker. The truth is that no nation can be founded on Babblical principles and still have things like freedom of speech and a government without an obvious Xian drive. A constitution based on the Babble would not provide for the freedom or defense of the people, but rather for the unconditional indoctrination of the Xian religion; the fact that this insipid cult is not mentioned once in the Constitution is proof enough of the fact one has nothing to do with the other.

 

But without tying their religion in with the Founding Fathers and the principles they built this country on, how else will they continue to legitimize themselves in the eyes of their fellow Americans?

[jrmarlin]

Thomas Jefferson and the rest of the Fathers are why I still consider myself patriotic; to know and understand the true principles upon which America was founded makes me feel a sense of pride, and a sense of sadness at the same time. Pride, of course, because as a Deist it is special to know that other like-minded freethinkers had the true hand to play in writing the Constitution - but sad because so much of that has been forgotten today. So few people really understand the true principles of America, and to see the Xian Right ™ try to hijack the truth of history is a sham.

 

I was right on their side at one point. I fell for the Xian America myth, hook and line and sucker. The truth is that no nation can be founded on Babblical principles and still have things like freedom of speech and a government without an obvious Xian drive. A constitution based on the Babble would not provide for the freedom or defense of the people, but rather for the unconditional indoctrination of the Xian religion; the fact that this insipid cult is not mentioned once in the Constitution is proof enough of the fact one has nothing to do with the other.

 

But without tying their religion in with the Founding Fathers and the principles they built this country on, how else will they continue to legitimize themselves in the eyes of their fellow Americans?

I completely agree with you here. It is a shame that Xians have tainted and twisted these men's memories so far beyond what they were in ever sense, it makes me sick. Especially because Thomas Jefferson has alway been a hero to me.

 

My first Jefferson experience was at Monticello. Going through that home and seeing everything he created -- and yet, he didn't feel the need of any such crutches as Xianity made him all the more appealing to me - even at a young age. I have had a great respect for the founding fathers of this country...the same cannot be said for all the "Special Interest groups" that permiate it now.

 

The Xians have abused their Idealism that America was based in Christianity; therefore, I felt it only fair on the founding fathers' behaves to state the truth here.

 

As far as I am concerned, there are not many Xians that are truly good Americans.

[Taphophilia]

Thomas Jefferson believed in the moral superiority of Jesus, but did not believe him to be devine.

He even went so far as to compile a Bible, taking out the miracles and the resurection.

 

The Jefferson Bible

 

Here's a Jefferson quote for Kevin:

 

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."

 

Amendment II

 

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

[jrmarlin]

Another Jefferson Quote:

 

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

- Thomas Jefferson

[scitsofreaky]

Another Jefferson Quote:

 

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

- Thomas Jefferson

I love that quote! TJ is a great man (I don't say "was" because even though he is dead, he hasn't stopped being great).

[jrmarlin]

Looking at the poll, I would say that all of you agree with Tommy J. He rocks doesn't he? I tell you the man IS a genius without exception.

 

He knew what he was talking about. Perhaps that's why he was always a leader and not a follower. I think that's one weakness that Xians have is that they feel the need to follow as opposed to actually standing up and leading.

 

I have daily contact with some people who are Xians and they really are not take the bull by the horns type people. They would rather sit there and bitch about their jobs rather than either find new jobs or go to their boss and toot their own horns.

 

I do not believe the meek will inherit the earth. Apparently, look at Donald Trump, Oprah, Bill Gates -- hardly meek, unassertive people.

 

The proof is in the pudding, isn't it?

[Amanda]

 

 

Serene Aspirations... one thing I have noticed is that suppressing a group of people seems to only make them stronger. Also, those outside the prejudiced group, not mesmorized by ignorance, will hopefully come and make a stand for them. Look at the Jews, how they have risen above their oppression, how these Buddhist may have been dispersed and still strengthened their recognition, and maybe that is what caused the initial Christians to have such a great climb to popularity? IMO, anyone who overcomes an unjustly overwhelming adversity has a special substance about them that causes them to tower over the rest. This can be a good thing in one regard, because they usually make the world a better place and tend to have more compassion than those they overcame... unless a generation will eventually reach a narcissistic level, as it seems these fundamentalist religions and other groups of people have done. *sigh*

 

Maybe the meek, strength under a gentle nature, continually do inherit the earth?

[SBeeland]

I love it when people bring up these points to True Believers, then they spout out "oh, no, Jefferson never said those things. It is all liberal/athiest/homosexual/wiccan/etc. lies." As if they knew the man personally.

[jrmarlin]

I love it when people bring up these points to True Believers, then they spout out "oh, no, Jefferson never said those things. It is all liberal/athiest/homosexual/wiccan/etc. lies." As if they knew the man personally.

My mother was a curator at Monticello. I was knee deep in Jefferson Country my whole adolescene. And I have seen books written in his own handwriting that state some of the above. And it was HIS handwriting, written with a quill pen. Therefore, when xians say this to me, I tell them what I have personally seen. I challenge them to go to Monticello and look for themselves.

 

That usually shuts them up because they cannot dispute what was written in Jefferson's pen. That is why the palest ink is more reliable than the sharpest memory.

 

There is their proof that Jefferson was far from being anything remotely close to Xianity. In fact, he was a staunch protestor against Xianity as he felt it brought nothing but violence, discord and upset to this earth... as it does continue to do today.

[jrmarlin]

Although I agree with many of his statements regarding religion, I'm disappointed in him because he said that black people are lesser and he did not free his own slaves despite that he called for freedom and liberty for whites. His views of black people promoted not discouraged racism and for that, I also believe he was a huge hypocrite of the worst kind.

 

Thomas Jefferson on Slavery

Serene when I first started studying Jefferson I, too, was very dispondant about the whole slavery issue. However, Jefferson died before the Civil War. Furthermore, black leaders in Africa were the ones that sold the Jefferson family their slaves. In his time, slavery was perfectly legal just abortion used to be perfectly legal here in all 50 states.

 

To say that Jefferson was callous and uncaring for all men is a bit of a misnomer as it is clearly documented that Jefferson took excellent care of his slaves.

 

Not in any part of the history of his home and UVA, during his life did any of his slaves even consider leaving. Jefferson is widely reported to be one of small minority of plantation owners that never mistreated or beat his slaves. They had free run of his home, his land as well as were included in holiday celebrations. He attended their funerals, their weddings, arranged for the children to be educated.

 

Tbese actions, for that time, was extremely relaxed treatment and Jefferson withstood a lot of criticism and hatred because of his lack of ill-treatment and ill-tempermant towards his slaves. Other plantation owners were enraged by Jefferson's soft treatment because it started problems on their own plantations.

 

So, while I agree that Jefferson - a freethinker - should have probably released his slaves, I am sure the thought never even occured to him. He actually saw his slaves as company for him, his friends and constant companions. And when he died, his slaves were devastated to the point there were two funerals for Jefferson.

 

If you are trying to blemish the man's good reputation or incite others to think ill of Jefferson, then I do not agree with this practice and will not advocate it!

 

The fact remains undeniable that the very luxury you have to speak your mind free from criminal prosecution, have the freedom to practice any spiritual worship and enjoy the other freedoms guaranteed to you via the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, is largely due to passion, frevor and activism of Thomas Jefferson.

 

And for your freedom alone as a citizen of this country, you should be very, very thankful.

[Amanda]

Not in any part of the history of his home and UVA, during his life did any of his slaves even consider leaving. Jefferson is widely reported to be one of small minority of plantation owners that never mistreated or beat his slaves. They had free run of his home, his land as well as were included in holiday celebrations. He attended their funerals, their weddings, arranged for the children to be educated.

 

Tbese actions, for that time, was extremely relaxed treatment and Jefferson withstood a lot of criticism and hatred because of his lack of ill-treatment and ill-tempermant towards his slaves. Other plantation owners were enraged by Jefferson's soft treatment because it started problems on their own plantations.

Hi JrMarlin! It still seems to me that Thomas Jefferson really did the same thing that many fundamentalist Christians do today. It is not soooo much the physical abuse, as it is the mental abuse of the slave owner's mentality... as in fundamentalism today. It's implementing a mindset that all others are a substandard people. Sure it may have been a common occurrence of those times... and so it has been with fundamentalism today. Isn't it that same self-elitist mentality of these fundamentalist, who think they are in a 'better' position of dictating how the rest of us should live our lives?

 

I am impressed with Serene Aspiration's conviction to separate what she definitely admires in a person from what she clearly is refusing to condone in any form... and further the value she places on the latter rather than the the obvious importance of religous freedoms for her. However, I certainly agree with you in applauding his stand for freedom of expressing one's opinion against the very popular status-quo religous movement of his era. And yet, we must admit he had serious short-comings in his way of thinking too. I guess that makes him human, just like these fundamentalist, and like all of us.

[jrmarlin]

If you are trying to blemish the man's good reputation or incite others to think ill of Jefferson, then I do not agree with this practice and will not advocate it!

 

Excuse me? Incite others to think ill of Jefferson? JrMarlin...he does that on his own with his own writings. He was a hypocrite, point blank. I'm well aware about the evils of where slavery comes from and who sells whom, it's been going on since the dawn of time. It still doesn't make it right. Jefferson wrote of black people as less than whites, that has nothing to do with his "mindset" of slavery being wrong or right.

 

Technically, Thomas Paine had a big influence on the founding fathers and much of their ideas came from him. His writings started the whole thing and it had a wonderful trickle effect for many free societies and he unlike Jefferson, wasn't a hypocrite nor did he own slaves, he stood for freedom of all mankind.

 

I do not hate nor loathe our founding fathers but I'll and I'm thankful to be an American, but I do not like how this country was taken, nor do I like how others were treated in order to get these freedoms...they were hypocrites.

 

 

_______________________________________________________________________________

 

Thanks Amanda.

I am sure Jefferson none too happy about the way this country has turned out. In fact, I will lay you ten to one, he would be probably the most upset about it being that he and his peers fought long and hard for the very freedoms that we just frivilously use like toilet paper -- and throw away when they don't meet our "minority's" preference.

 

As for Thomas Jefferson, if you want to diss him for slavery -- go ahead. But please note that every founding father of this country and every other hero and crusader since has had some blemish on the record. And if Thomas Jefferson is guilty of being a man who was thinking in his time, then I would take that over some of the out and out criminals in politics now, every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[jrmarlin]

Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be better if we just shit can all the founding fathers' documents and have a civil war to hash all this bullshit out. I mean, hell, it's been over 100 years since the last one. Let's just go whole hog and have a real bruha...

 

Abortion, Religion, Smoking, Drugs, Racism, Anti-Gay-ism...

 

All the issues, take 'em the battlefield -- literal not figuritive. Just go out there guns blazin' and beat the living shit out of each other.

 

Everyone enjoys freedom but do we really have any freedom anymore? I think that's a subject for strong debate.

 

And no, you can't just blame a political party because all the political parties are fucked in one way or another. You can't blame the president because he didn't make the rules of politics - he just plays by them.

 

If someone is honest and decent - then we don't want him or her to be president. If someone is a crook when they get there, we want him / her recalled.

 

No one can win. THis is a lose/lose proposition. There never is a winner in this outfit. It's a zero sum game. So why don't we just get to it and get it over with...

 

But first and foremost, let's quit deluding ourselves into thinking that was originally meant for this country is what it is now... Far from it.

 

You would think that people would get smarter as time goes by, turns out the folks back then had it all going on. The only thing we really have is technology. Big fucking deal.

 

Technology alone makes not one free. And that's a genuine Marlin quote right there!

[Amanda]

You would think that people would get smarter as time goes by, turns out the folks back then had it all going on.

 

JrMarlin, it seems to me that things haven't changed that much since Ceasar! The government and the religous right seems to be the same to me.

 

Personally, I'm more concerned about being taxed to death, while the government big wheels set themselves up royally. They tax us so much that they barely leave enough for living for the average person. Plus these government leaders are loyal to their contributers, who want legislation to support their monetary agenda: while the religous right wants to tell us how to morally live our lives.

 

Violence is not the answer though... it only contributes support to those we oppose. It proves their point. The religous right seems to be doing a fine job in bringing their own selves down. Let people like Pat Robertson keep talking, and people are recognizing how stupid they sound in their narcissistic judgemental views. The government is going to have to sober up too... the cost is too high in having a discontented society right now. This next election is crucial, IMO.

[jrmarlin]

You would think that people would get smarter as time goes by, turns out the folks back then had it all going on.

 

JrMarlin, it seems to me that things haven't changed that much since Ceasar! The government and the religous right seems to be the same to me.

 

Personally, I'm more concerned about being taxed to death, while the government big wheels set themselves up royally. They tax us so much that they barely leave enough for living for the average person. Plus these government leaders are loyal to their contributers, who want legislation to support their monetary agenda: while the religous right wants to tell us how to morally live our lives.

 

Violence is not the answer though... it only contributes support to those we oppose. It proves their point. The religous right seems to be doing a fine job in bringing their own selves down. Let people like Pat Robertson keep talking, and people are recognizing how stupid they sound in their narcissistic judgemental views. The government is going to have to sober up too... the cost is too high in having a discontented society right now. This next election is crucial, IMO.

You know Amanda, you are completely right. And I think it's high time we had a female president. Three weeks ago, the thought really hadn't occured to me other than the rumblings of Hilary running for president, but in lieu of this week's events, I am not so sure that would be a bad idea.

 

The thing I am upset about is that people just keep going on and on about their way being right and of course, no one can agree on which way is the way. I don't think there really ever was a right way - but the paths are getting more bent, twisted and perverse every moment the clock ticks.

 

You are completely right. This next election is critical. We need someone with the balls or the tits to do the job right and quit dicking around with all the bullshit. Someone who will cut through and clearly define then solve the problems we need corrected.

 

A civil war. I don't know. It seems here recently people have become more polarized than ever. I have noticed this in the last few months. It's like the world is on fast forward -- bringing everything to a very abrupt head. Do you see it, too, or is it my imagination?

[scitsofreaky]

You are completely right. This next election is critical. We need someone with the balls or the tits to do the job right and quit dicking around with all the bullshit. Someone who will cut through and clearly define then solve the problems we need corrected.

I agree, but I don't see that happening. Any more, it seems that the problem is the system itself. We don't need just one person with the balls/tits to do what is good, true and right, but practically every position to be filled with such a person for any positive change.

And I totally agree that it is not a particular party that is messing everything up, it is both parties (sure, there are other parties, but what power do they have?), they both, well, suck ass.

[jrmarlin]

I got to thinking about what Serene said about Thomas Jefferson yesterday and it still burns me up that someone would sit there and bash a man who put his whole life at stake for the very banner of freedom for which she lives under.

 

The evils of slavery and black men being equal did not come into vogue as they say until long after Jefferson was dead. Even after the Civil War, even though slavery was abolished, the black race was still not "equal" in the white race's eyes. To sit there and bash one of the founding fathers of the country - no matter how fucked up it is now compared to then - is just absolutely ungrateful for what that man did for them. I have a very, very hard time with that type of chatter.

 

George Washington had slaves but you're not on here bashing him. Or Monroe. Or any of the other southern colony plantation owners who came to help make this country free from mother England.

 

I guess it is not only Xians we bash on here. We bash on everybody regardless of what the person's "documented historical" sacrifice he made for you to be free.

 

I mean, I can understand the bashing of the whole concept of christianity and christ whole-heartedly...but to sit there and bash the founding father who was the forerunner of this country along with his contemporaries is just amazing to me. Considering you wouldn't even have the free speech right now had it not been for that man spearheading the movement to develop this country and your present freedoms.

 

And everyone says, "...it didn't matter that he was very good to his slave, he wrote that he didn't think that black men were equal..." That's such bullshit. He never treated his slaves as slaves. They lived on his grounds under his protection because, baby, back in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, no one believed black people were equal to white people and there was NO such thing as a free black man - period. If they were not someone's slaves, they were dead.

 

So please do a little more research on the colonial time period -- that was the era AROUND that little writing you found. As you will find, if Jefferson had not protected his slaves by keeping them protected from other white men - they would have been dead or in Africa -- certainly not free men walking the streets of Colonial Charlottesville or any other province at that time -- EVEN IN THE NORTH, there were slaves, darling. Thomas Paine also had slaves at his home as well...but I don't hear anyone bashing his ass all over these posts.

 

If you are a white American and your family was here during colonial times, then your family also owned slaves. In fact, plantations had slaves even after the civil war. Oprah has servants - so I guess that makes her an asshole, too, for having them! And while we're at it, let's just bash everyone who has or had servants and slaves in the history of this country. If you're going to open that Pandora's box, then take it to the full nine. Don't just stop and shit on Jefferson. Shit on them ALL.

 

Knowing the FULL writings of Jefferson and the history of his life in great intimate detail, I can confidently say, had Jefferson lived in THIS time period - he would have been appalled by slavery and very pro-Civil Rights, not to mention all this nonsense of taking away women's rights to chose. I can assure this would have been a big sore spot with him due to his fierce passion regarding a person's personal freedom. And for his time, he fought vehemently for the underdog -- and let me assure you, at times, that was no cupcake walk in the park as you forget that the colonists were the biggest underdogs.

 

It is really sad when people who are using the excuse they have the freedom to do this and that are sitting there using that freedom to bash the very man who gave them that freedom. How fucking ironic is that?

 

Jefferson may have ben a lot of things in his lifetime but to call him a fundamentalist is just ridiculous to the point it is not even funny. It's actually small-minded and pathetic.

 

If it weren't for Jefferson and his cohorts, you would be living in a PURITAN only country where any talk about there not being a God would have landed your asses in jail or better yet the gallows to be publically tortured and ostracized. Blasphemy was a big crime back in the colonial era.

 

I suggestion you do a little more reading and research into the man's actual life and his own writings before bashing his ass. And I don't mean googling his name - I mean sitting down with all the fucking books on his life as well as the mentality of the time and read them - cover to cover.

 

Furthermore, until you forfeit your own privacy and go out there and continual the fight for freedom to remain in this country, you have no room to sling any mud at the man whatsoever. It's pretty fucking easy to be an armchair quarterback but a completely different story to be in the actual game and to walk the walk!

[jrmarlin]

Then I say, Serene. Keep bashing him. The politicians today are working very hard to take every freedom away that he ever fought for anyway. So just bash away....but I was the originator of this tread and this tread clearly states that it is about his feelings on Christianity. Period. It did not say it was a history lesson. It certainly wasn't started for people like you to bash and try to defame the man's work or his memory. It was put here to share some interesting tidbits about Jefferson's thoughts about GOD and CHRISTIANITY. I don't recall every saying anything about Slavery. The only thing I ever said about slavery before this exchange was in the Roe vs. Wade tread. Period.

 

You siting this slavery thing on this tread was highly inappropriate as the tread does not call for it in the first place. My suspicion is you wanted to bash on it (or Jefferson) and put this bullshit in here to incite some sort of anger because as you know, even now, there are a lot of Africian Americans who are very sensitive to this history. To me, it looks like you were looking to defame yet one more person and I do not agree with that and I am the originator of this tread.

 

If you want to bash Jefferson for something that EVERYONE back in Colonial times was doing, fine. But start your own goddamn tread for it. This tread is not for destructive defamation. It was to share some interesting things non-Xians can use when battling with fundies. Real fundies...as most are very pro-American and feel that all the founding fathers were Xians.

 

Thanks.

[Amanda]

The politicians today are working very hard to take every freedom away that he ever fought for anyway.

 

JrMarlin, we are a democratic/republic society and the only way politicians can do this is if we elect them to office. I do believe that fundamentalist thinking is on its way out. Presidents realize that the international community is NOT going for that mentality! Althugh, even Thomas Jefferson did not do away with ALL these teachings of Christ either. He was clearly segregating fantasy from what could be beneficial... hence his own Bible on Jesus. I allign myself very closely with him in these regards.

 

....but I was the originator of this tread and this tread clearly states that it is about his feelings on Christianity. Period. It did not say it was a history lesson.

JrMarlin, my friend, I can understand your tremendous admiration for such a supreme thinker of his time to go against the precepts of "God" in his day. However, this is a debating forum... where people can express their 'opinions' on such matters concerning this topic. This site has always held a tradition, for as long as I've been on it, of not allowing a 'cherry picking' assertion go uncontested and a sense of fairness. Often times in debating we have to take the good with the bad. Knowing the contentions to our stand only strengthens our position as it can not later be seen as a surprise... nor a loss of responding to it. Heimdall is very effective in debating me using this method! *sigh*

 

It was to share some interesting things non-Xians can use when battling with fundies. Real fundies...as most are very pro-American and feel that all the founding fathers were Xians.

 

Yes, and any fundamentalist that says that the founding fathers had the same agenda as they, can be clearly refuted by the information you presented here in this thread. Thank you. However, if one were to put Thomas Jefferson on a pedestal as God himself, or as the utmost role model, they will be highly disappointed by some of the other assertions this man made... as anyone will be who puts another in such a godly position. That's all.

 

Maybe its better to see the big picture, that you and Serene Aspiration are on the same side ultimately. If ExChristians cause conflict between themselves then they only do the same as fundies and weaken their overall position. Perhaps it is better to stay looking towards the ultimate end goal, which I and most on this site hope is found in just letting the TRUTH be exposed.

 

Perhaps those of us from the south are a little more sensitive about slavery because we have seen the discontent that prejudice, discrmination, and reverse discrimination has caused in society. Although there is much esteem for these words of T. Jefferson, still we need to be cautious how far we are willing to let his ideas speak for our own opinions. Some people, as myself, want to define our limits and boundaries in this area. How effective can we be at using Thomas Jefferson's Christianity statements if we also condone his ideas, even for that time, at the substandards he placed on a race of people. I think our ability to separate our suppport for one set of ideas while disgusted with another set of his ideas only gives strength to the intended parts we wish to support.

 

Jr Marlin, my friend, that's only my $.02. However, we might want to remember a very patriotic phrase that may apply to the promotion of this site's ultimate position in that 'united we stand, divided we fall'.

[jrmarlin]

Once again, Amanda, you're missing the point of this thread. If you want to start a Jefferson thread, go for it. But this thread was not started for the purpose of politicizing or anything else related to Jefferson but his feelings on Christianity.

 

If you don't agree with his feelings, that is your right. As for me, I am nobody compadre here. I am merely here to pursue different ideas of how others think regarding religion. I was merely trying to contribute some things I have known about Jefferson throughout my life.

 

If you don't want to hear about him because he was a nasty asshole that owned slaves - regardless of his treatment of them - then fine. He's a son of a bitch that should have never lived. Perhaps he never lived. Perhaps like the bible the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were all just fables - nothing more. It does seem to appear to be the case in the current times. No one has respect for anything anymore. Perhaps that is the biggest downfall of religion is the fact that no one has any respect for anyone or anything anymore. Its all just mindless bullshit.

 

And adults have the audacity to question why kids are in gangs. We have no heros anymore. All the heros of the past are torn apart and spit upon no matter what kind of benefit as a society we derive from their work and their sacrifices. If I were Jefferson, I would have said the hell with this country, let 'em sort it out for themselves. In looking through some of the posts on this thread, I think that would have been the best thing for him to do, because obviously he doesn't garner any respect. He was just an asshole who had slaves. End story.

 

I will not say any more regarding this subject. Thanks.

[webmdave]

Topic close by request of the topic initiator.