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Goodbye Jesus

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Padreko

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After reading several threads I kinda got this feeling that being on the other side a lot of people are very critical of christianity(not that its unjustified - or maybe it is?) Being a Christian the basic divide was the your religion vs the rest of the world. Does anyone feel like being an Ex-christian has some of the same characteristics? Secular vs. Religious? Afterall one of the things we pride ourselves in is being non-judgmental right? Is it ok to Judge the Christians like they judge us?

 

Lets analyze this shall we? What are your thoughts?

 

 

My Answer: We don't hate them right? We just hate the part of christianity that rejects everyone else and if they could learn to accept everyone and be progressive then the whole belief in a diety part would be acceptable? But this is still paradoxial because I'm suppose to accept everyone regardless? So then is it not possible to accept everyone? All outliers aside (ie hitler)

 

Or is the logic suppose to be "i'll accept everyone, untill they decide not to accept me first?"

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Goodbye Jesus
After reading several threads I kinda got this feeling that being on the other side a lot of people are very critical of christianity(not that its unjustified - or maybe it is?) Being a Christian the basic divide was the your religion vs the rest of the world. Does anyone feel like being an Ex-christian has some of the same characteristics? Secular vs. Religious? Afterall one of the things we pride ourselves in is being non-judgmental right? Is it ok to Judge the Christians like they judge us?

 

Lets analyze this shall we? What are your thoughts?

 

 

My Answer: We don't hate them right? We just hate the part of christianity that rejects everyone else and if they could learn to accept everyone and be progressive then the whole belief in a diety part would be acceptable? But this is still paradoxial because I'm suppose to accept everyone regardless? So then is it not possible to accept everyone? All outliers aside (ie hitler)

 

I don't believe that everyone here hates Xians as people... I think a lot of people here get irritated because trying to have a debate with a Xian is like hitting a brick wall due to the blinders they fashion for themselves.

 

I don't hate Xians. I just posted elsewhere that I pity them more than anything else. To go through life with blinders on, oblivious to the vivid world that is going on around them -- and not even having any desire for self discovery -- is just maddening to folks like us. We investigate. We question. We don't just take things at someone else's word. I don't know about others here, but I actually look up the bible passages and read them for myself...

 

I would hope that others come here to learn, provide support and discuss / educate one another about different ways of thinking... looking at things.... etc.

 

So, no, I would say a lot of what you're reading is people getting very pissed about the idiocy, the hypocrisy, the judgments and the "witnessing" which does occur here. Do you see what I mean?

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We can sometimes be like Xians, if we let our outrage (however justifiable) fuel us overmuch, and turn as angry and hateful as the most extreme fundies. We must be ever-vigilant against letting our beliefs get the better of us and make it so that our lives revolve around anti-religion to the same unhealthy degree that they once did around religion.

 

Normally, I'd say no; we are not like brainwashed fundie zombies, unable to eat or sleep without thinking of Jesus™ or trying to placate their invisible friend. We encourage genuine freedom of thought and belief, not just pay lip service to such freedoms and then preach a religion curtailing them at every turn.

 

Sure, we can be rough around the edges and many times emotionally-driven, but overall ex-xians are really a different sort of people.

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Hell, I don't hate christians. Not at all. I don't think hardly any of us do.

 

But we do understand them. Probably as well as they understand themselves.

 

And, it is kind of fun to poke fun at them and their religion, and rub their noses in their bibles - since they don't get any of that in the real world.

 

I know that it has been an eye-opening experience for a lot of fundies who have dived in here head-first without checking the depth of the water.

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Just like them? No.

Human with the same emotions and tendancies to dig our heels in? Yes.

 

But for the mostpart, we ("we" meaning those of us who do not

believe in supernatural god/s) are not defending beliefs,

rather we are defending not sharing theirs.

We don't have beliefs - both atheism and agnosticism are

viewpoints that DON'T make any assumptions beyond the known.

(Or at the very least, no assumptions inconsistent with

known facts, logic, reason or known physical law).

 

Put super simply, the non-believer is rejecting the claims of the believers.

The believer is arguing the validity of something that can not be tested,

can not be observed, can not be known,

and in fact stands in contradiction to what IS known.

 

Imagine two 3rd graders arguing at recess about 7x5.

One is shouting "It's 35!" the other is shouting "it's 30!"

What's more important; who's right or who's going to win the inevitable fight?

:lmao:

If THAT happens, yeah, we're just like them - arguing to win by attrition - to break them.

But if we can be confident that 7x5 is in fact 35,

we really don't have justify it to anyone, or to shout anyone down.

(Unless they start it, and tell us it's really 30.)

While they teach faith, we teach the tools of honest skepticism and reason,

and our faith must be in our student's abilty to employ those skills on their own.

 

FNA

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We don't hate them right?

I certainly don't hate them, some of my family members are Christians and I don't hate my family. Although.... Jesus did say that if we don't hate our family we can never be one of his disciples :HaHa:

 

I think we are like them in the sense that we see things a certain way and we disagree with others who don't share our view, but that's just human nature, that isn't a "Christian" thing or an "atheist" thing or a "religious" thing, it's a human thing....

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Someone once posited that religion is a meme, a mind virus. They also stated that it is but one of many, a good deal of which are essential to our continued sanity, and for some memes, our survival. For example the idea that our minds aren't already made before we make them consciously, or the oft thrown 'we are more than the sum of our parts'. Basically, we are all living with blinders of some type. To some degree, I think we have to fight to not emulate christians from time to time, the fact that someone would even ask if we are like them, is evidence of that.

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Non-xtians and atheists can be just as dogmatic as any fundy when it comes to their belief systems, but in a way that's like saying 'Evolution is a theory just like intelligent design'.

 

Xtian fundamentalism is an aggressive, proselytizing movement that tries to turn back the clock on social progress, and is just as misguided and dangerous as Islamic fundamentalism. On a personal level, it's mind control and encourages delusional thinking.

 

Most xtians are very nice, normal people who respond to the positive things in the bible. It's only a vocal minority who advocates the insane shit. They're dangerous and evil, and I feel towards them like I do Nazis or the Taliban. They are a threat to me - if they have their way politically, people like me will lose their civil rights, maybe get thrown in prison, or even be executed for disagreeing with them.

 

By contrast, if I had my way politically I would simply keep the wall between church & state very big and very sturdy. I don't want to force everyone to parrot my beliefs. I just want them to leave other people (and me) alone.

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By contrast, if I had my way politically I would simply keep the wall between church & state very big and very sturdy. I don't want to force everyone to parrot my beliefs. I just want them to leave other people (and me) alone.

 

I agree with this logic. Hehe.. Now I feel free to bash the fundies...

 

 

On a totally random note, never feed your dog(jack russel) broccoli cause he'll totally obliterate your sense of smell...

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I don't pride myself on being non-judgemental.

 

What does "non-judgemental" mean, anyway?

 

If someone says to you, "I'm a nazi! I hate Jews!" with a big smile, does this not cause thoughts to to circulate in your brain? Those thoughts are judgements, regardless of whether they are of the form "Nazis are evil," or "What the hell is this guy on?" or, "Nazis! Cool!"

 

There is no such thing as non-judgemental -- barring ignorance of the terms. (e.g. "Nazi? What's that?" would be non-judgemental.)

 

For myself, if someone has chosen to adopt the label "christian" to describe themself, that label is a shorthand for a whole set of attributes which they are (more or less) ascribing to themselves. The ENTIRE PURPOSE of their adopting and advertising such a label is so that OTHERS MAY JUDGE THEM BY IT. As in, "Oh, he's a Christian. How nice!" or, (in my case) "Oh, he's a Christian. What a fucking retard."

 

*Note: I have never *ever* met a single instance of a Christian who, upon querying, was found to believe what they believed for non-retarded reasons. So, upon encountering someone who adopts the label "Christian" as a shorthand to describe their worldview, I automatically ascribe to them the attribute ot retardedness. So far, I'm batting 1000 with this assumption, in that *no* Christian has ever been able to provide ANY reasonable backing for their patently absurd beliefs.

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I have a low tolerance for Fundys of any stripe, I don't "hate" the fundys but I have very little tolerance for their abusive behavior and mindset. (Pat Robertson and followers for example) Their threats of Eternal torture and Mind Fking they do to unknowing people are things I won't smile at and dismiss as 'just their beliefs'. Christians that aren't fundys are a completely different ball game. They could give two what I believe and for the most part have a Live and let live attitude which I get along great with. If people aren't in my face about religion there is no issue, I respect the fact that some believe, It's when it turns into the attempted emotional manipulation that sets me off.

 

 

Their are Fundy Xtians, Fundy Muslims and even Fundy Mother earth types, All Strips of Fanaticism are dangerous not just the Christian ones. The Hell fire and brim stone types are no different then extremists in other beliefs. It so happens that many of us broke away from extremism from the Christian mindset, so it would be natural for that to be the hot button for some of us, I know that's at least the case with me.

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I don't hate any christians themselves. I got no use for the religion. I don't pride myself

as being non-judgemental. I don't pretend to be perfect or claim the moral high ground.

Critical of it? You bet. If I had been critical of it before and analyzed it, I would have never

fallen for it in the first place. I don't see anything wrong with being critical or skeptical

of anything. Might save you unnecessary troubles. I do think a distinction needs to be made

between fundies and non-fundie christians. To me the non-fundie types are filed under

whatever floats your boat or whatever works for you. The fundies are different.

They are a threat. If they are left unchecked they will destroy my freedoms and possibly

do worse. However, if a fundie is willing to engage in dialogue with an open mind; that's

great. If it's just closed minded proselytizing, I don't see anything wrong with treating

them the same way they treat us.

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Don't hate Xtians and their dogma..

 

Just as long as it, their preaching, gets left two measly meters past the longest shot I can take.

 

People come, people go. Things change, we eventually grow up, or fully surrender to the Xorg/Morg/JWorg/FunlessOrg and quit thinking for ourselves.

 

Rather than have shit on my carpet, I'd rather have the unhousebroken sit outside with the pups.. :)

 

Humans welcome to discuss and discourse. Rabid fundies can KMHFA..

 

kL

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I don't hate christians.... some of their actions however, well, that is a different story.

I do not believe that ALL christians are bad, I mean, there are some that mind their own business and do not try to cram god down your throat every time they have the chance. I have family members that are christian and friends that still believe, but we are at an understanding, you don't try to change me, I won't try to change you. It is the ones that do that I have a problem with. I would never try to cram what I believe/disbelieve down anyone's throat, it is a personal decision. However, when it gets to be like christianity, as mentioned:

 

Wolfheart: We can sometimes be like Xians, if we let our outrage (however justifiable) fuel us overmuch, and turn as angry and hateful as the most extreme fundies. We must be ever-vigilant against letting our beliefs get the better of us and make it so that our lives revolve around anti-religion to the same unhealthy degree that they once did around religion.
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I don't pride myself on being non-judgemental.

 

What does "non-judgemental" mean, anyway?

 

If someone says to you, "I'm a nazi! I hate Jews!" with a big smile, does this not cause thoughts to to circulate in your brain? Those thoughts are judgements, regardless of whether they are of the form "Nazis are evil," or "What the hell is this guy on?" or, "Nazis! Cool!"

 

There is no such thing as non-judgemental -- barring ignorance of the terms. (e.g. "Nazi? What's that?" would be non-judgemental.)

 

 

Good point. We all form opinions of others (hence, judgements). There are no exceptions to this rule. When those judgements become harmful is when they cause harm to other people (for example, a fundy who kills a gay person because he believes that homosexuality is a sin).

 

A writer in my writer's group who's writing a novel was being a bit preachy in one chapter about judgemental behavior and saying that the main character shouldn't have "judged" the self-righteous religious fundies for saying they were more moral than her. Which of course, drove me nuts.

 

We all have a right to not like the behavior of someone, and someone saying that we don't have a right to not like that behavior smacks of being hypocritical. We all judge others to some extent. You can't stop people from forming opinions, or else they wouldn't be human.

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we looooove the fundy's; we just hate fundementalism.

 

Sorry, just had to throw that in...

 

Seriously though, most of my best friends are x-ian, and my parents & sister are pretty extreme fundy's. When we tend to get a little pissed, it's generally because we are frustrated with the sheer stupidity we are hearing.

 

Funny story (and I swear it's true!): My (ex) sister-in-law (who was a major fundy as well as a complete TWIT) was spouting off at X-mas dinner years back about a credit card problem they had during the X-mas shopping season. They bought a $200 item, then returned it; the store didn't refund it though, it appeared as another credit instead of a refund and they owed $400 on the card for, well, ...nothing. They were still in the process of going round and round with the credit card company about it. My SIL popped off with a really christian observation about the situation: it was something to the affect that jesus paid allllll of our debts without a single complaint, who are we to be complaining about this little debt in the face of what he did for us (I think we can all invision that blank zombie-like stare of adoration she had on her face when she was saying it)...

 

my jaw almost hit the fucking floor, *I* was actually at a loss for words!!! Then to make things worse, my (southern baptist preacher) father chimes in with a big "AMEN!" I was almost stupified, and then I looked at my mom who almost seemed to have steam coming out of her collar ...she suddenly quipped out "JESUS NEVER HAD TO DEAL WITH AMERICAN EXPRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (and she was actually a little pissed at my SIL's idiotic little "analogy" ...you have to understand that my sister in law was exactly the type of flaky idiot to try to throw some really x-ian spin on it just so she wouldn't have to deal with the credit card company)

 

I think everyone at the table except for my SIL almost fell out of thier chairs laughing. She was not amused at all.

 

my point is that even fundy's can get really aggravated at sheer stupidity when they hear it. I don't see us as much different. We just have a different standard for what is so stupid!

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When I read that question in the OP, I read it as when you say something or make a judgement on someone (a christian in this case) and it hurts them in a way that something christians say to you and hurts you- are you like them. Well yeah. And I've certainly encountered many things said on this forum and one like CF that basically were saying the same thing about the "other" with one case the other being a christian and in another the other is a nonchristian. It is the "us" versus "them" mentality that becomes dangerous. Is it a bad thing if you're like a christian or a christian is like you? So long as whomever you may be like isn't doing something to cause you harm, I don't see the foul in it. When someone shoves their beliefs down your throat, it isn't their "faith" that makes them stupid or annoying. It is what they do with their "faith" that causes them to be an undesirable comparison. I'd say the same goes for anyone in any group. I wouldn't want to be compared to someone who is an insensitive asshole who never takes into consideration that they are dealing with an individual, no matter how smart they may be in other areas. Arrogance is not appealing on anyone.

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True christians must go to church, must read and accept the bible, must believe in Yahweh, must love Yahweh more than their own kids, and cannot tolerate gays, or animal rights, etc. True christians are trying to use the government to force their beliefs on people like me. True christians force things on people. I don't seek to force anything on them. I can't co-exist with true christians because if they do tolerate people like me, they're going against their own beliefs.

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Who is to say that those who call themselves christians and don't do those things aren't the true christians? how is someone tolerating you going against their beliefs? i'm confused. tolerating and endorsing/encouraging someone is different anyway.

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Who is to say that those who call themselves christians and don't do those things aren't the true christians?

 

The Bible. If it were just a book of suggestions to be looked at subjectively, I'd be a xtian.

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Who is to say that those who call themselves christians and don't do those things aren't the true christians?

 

The Bible. If it were just a book of suggestions to be looked at subjectively, I'd be a xtian.

 

Yeah. If we were just expected to live by the Golden Rule to be a Christian, and there was no doctrine condemning those were were remotely different, I probably wouldn't have left. The main problem I have with the religion is the hell doctrine. It's an unethical doctrine and logically, if there was a divine being, it wouldn't have created a place like hell.

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Guest Ghost In The Machine

I wouldn't say that I hate Christians, I simply detest their unwillingness to see any side other than their own limited point of view. And, I hate the evil that is being done daily in the name of God (whatever God that might be).

 

My born-again Pentecostal former boss once said, "You know Rick, when I die and go to heaven, it would pain me greatly to know that you're not going to be there too." Now... I THINK he meant it as a sincere gesture of caring, but it felt more like "I hope you accept Jesus Christ as your saviour before the rapture finally comes and you end up burning in Hell with all the baby-killers."

 

To which I jokingly replied, "If I were to believe in a God, my God certainly wouldn't leave anyone behind!"

 

I DO hate the arrogance and self-righteousness of so-called "Christian" sects, but I also support their right to form their own personal beliefs and their right to raise their children as they see fit. I also detest their insinuations that my personal opinions are mis-guided, while their own personal opinions are obviously the well-lit path to glory.

 

I also hate the fact that their many conflicting interpretations of the Bible leave no room for an educated train of thought. I feel sorry for those that need such a crutch to get through the day.

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Thanks for all the input..... this forum and all you guys are amazing... Its a rational judgement vs. irrational judgment sort of issue I sense.

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Many Christians irritate the hell out of me. More of them I actually like, and they seem like good peoples. The difference is the individual.

 

I would also like to point out that if someone declares me an enemy of theirs by my own nature, then I would be a fool not to treat them as dangerous. (To fight a dishonorable foe honorably is to invite death) That, however is a self-interest thing, plain and simple.

 

Biggest thing, is that, we probably aren't all that different between any two groups. We are still human, after all.

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