The Conscience Argument

[Mad Ethel Rakem]

Right. I've heard many, many CHristians spout off that we all have proof that God exists because we all have a consceince. But there's a tiny little hole in this argument.

Sociopaths.

Socipoaths have no conscience. They see no difference between doing their laundry and killing a their pregnant neighbor and feeding her to her husband. So are these just little mistakes, doomed to hell because their god, in all his wisdom, deemed it wise and good that this particular person be doomed to hellfire (because if you obviously don't give a damn, you're never going to accept Jesus into your heart)?

And before it can be dismissed as "Well, this doesn't happen to often, maybe it's just a fluke," let me point out that studies show about 1 in 6 Americans are sociopaths.

[saxyroze]

I think in philosophy of religion that's call The Moral Argument. Basic moral argument would be (taken out of my teacher's notes):

 

1. Morality dominates our lives

2. The sense of morality is universal

3. We didn’t invent it

4. Therefore it must have come from God.

 

But like you said, the evidence of non-moral people, such as true sociopath, throws a huge kink in the theistic moral argument. I don’t know how the Christians react to what you said in your post. Have you tried making that argument on a religious debate forum?

[greasemonkey]

I've brought up this argument before, but have never got a straight answer. I would think they ought to included in that ficticious "age of accountability" crap they try to lump retarded folks & kids into, but that might not look so good to admit a few axe-murderers actually fit that same criteria as the innocent kiddies, huh?! Did they actually start using the term "sociopath" again?! My last psych class was about a decade ago, but they were coming to the conclusion that the term was not a good one, and had changed the terminology to "anti-social personality."

 

I would take that "one in six" statistic with a grain of salt (especially if they used the term "sociopath"); I sure that one in six might exhibit characteristics of it, but a full blown anti-social personality was reasonably rare last I heard. My prof said that the tests they did were pretty scary ...they could put these folks on a brainwave test, and there would be no change from a bugs bunny cartoon to a snuff flick. Few of these people ever really turn out to be killers, more like con-artists and the annoying brother-in-law who always borrows money & is always in trouble.

 

Interesting subject if you believe in the "age of accountability;" are you willing to let an axe-murderer into the same group?!

[Amethyst]

It's not a conscience per say. It's learned cultural behaviors and norms. For example, it's not normal in our culture to kill an adult human being except in war or self-defense or for the death penalty. Anyone who went about killing a bunch of people would probably eventually be arrested and punished for their crime.

 

But if say, there was another planet, and there was some weird reason about why it was normal to kill an adult (say they were cannibals or had some weird ritual sacrifice or something), then within their society it would not be viewed as a bad thing necessarily.

 

Most people on earth would view it as shocking when word of that alien society spread via the media. But it would be shocking to us, not to them.

[Ex-COG]

Right. I've heard many, many CHristians spout off that we all have proof that God exists because we all have a consceince. But there's a tiny little hole in this argument.

Sociopaths.

Socipoaths have no conscience. They see no difference between doing their laundry and killing a their pregnant neighbor and feeding her to her husband. So are these just little mistakes, doomed to hell because their god, in all his wisdom, deemed it wise and good that this particular person be doomed to hellfire (because if you obviously don't give a damn, you're never going to accept Jesus into your heart)?

And before it can be dismissed as "Well, this doesn't happen to often, maybe it's just a fluke," let me point out that studies show about 1 in 6 Americans are sociopaths.

 

Wasn't there a teaching (at least in some churches) that, for those who repeatedly thought/followed a particular sin, that God would give them over to their evil desires? As in refusing the warnings of their conscious, or the Holy Spirit, or whatever? I think some would believe that there was a point that the sociopathic person could have turned away from this path, but by refusing to change and indulging in unhealthy behaviour, God allowed them the full measure of their wishes. This view is more likely followed by those Christians who put little trust in neurology/psychology, and place full responsibility on the individual for their actions...no matter what a brain wave test might show about the condition of their brain.

[Amanda]

Right. I've heard many, many CHristians spout off that we all have proof that God exists because we all have a consceince. But there's a tiny little hole in this argument.

Sociopaths.

Hi Mad Ethel Rakem! It is interesting that the conscience, using the Strong's Concordance, does not appear in the Bible until the NT. What I think happened is that about 8,000 years ago, after the last ice age and a new wheat mutated that could be reliably harvested and sowed, allowed people to be stable instead of nomadic. People not continually struggling for survival anymore, some were allowed to reach a level discribed as self actualization by Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. I speculate that this new level of altruistic thinking was attributed as God... and maybe it is the god in ALL of us.

 

This initial stage led to rules and laws for morality, for civilization to now be formed. There became an obsession with righteousness by much of these 'religous' people. The character of Jesus came with an emphasis on the next step, to be adding wisdom, adding rational thinking to morality. This is the same precept in Buddhism which started only 500 years before Christ, morality first and then wisdom. The struggle between the altruistic morality and the natural selfish craving was added the rational thinking part, to form a con-science, with science. The scriptures call the conscience a coperception of two past entities (altruistic vs selfish), and with Jesus bringing a clearing. The interesting thing is the NT is the oldest place, I've found, listing the conscience with this model. Frued did have the id, ego, and super ego.... about 2000 years later!

 

We do seem to have an inborn sense of justice. Sociopaths seem to have never been cared for in a critical time of their life. If no one cared about them, they did not care for others. It seems justified and normal to them, as they didn't learn how to care for others. Some people learn to disociate from unpleasant issues, refuse to feel their own feelings, therefore can not have empathy for others. I would like to see the study that showed 1 out of 6 people are sociopaths. Maybe it was referring to just personality disorders, yet that is still very high. Disorders are a mental illness.

 

Perhaps if we look at the condemning nature of many fundamentalist Christians, we'd have to wonder about their conscience. How can they say and do what they do and have a clear conscience is beyone me. Now there may be 1 out of 6 of those guys.

[Amethyst]

 

 

That's an interesting way of looking at it, Amanda. I wouldn't consider the self-actualized state a "god" but it is something that, once all our needs are met, we aspire to.

 

But let's say that, for example, there was an alien planet. The aliens were completely the opposite from us. They thought that killing was fine, stealing, etc. for whatever reasons. In their culture, it'd be perfectly fine to kill someone over a stupid argument, and even expected. But for whatever reason, when they contacted our planet, they thought we were absolutely horrible for some small thing (say eating meat).

 

Can we honestly say that everyone has an inborn sense of justice, when our sense of justice comes from perceived cultural norms?

[AgnosticBob AtheistPants]

Right. I've heard many, many CHristians spout off that we all have proof that God exists because we all have a consceince. But there's a tiny little hole in this argument.

Sociopaths.

Socipoaths have no conscience. They see no difference between doing their laundry and killing a their pregnant neighbor and feeding her to her husband. So are these just little mistakes, doomed to hell because their god, in all his wisdom, deemed it wise and good that this particular person be doomed to hellfire (because if you obviously don't give a damn, you're never going to accept Jesus into your heart)?

And before it can be dismissed as "Well, this doesn't happen to often, maybe it's just a fluke," let me point out that studies show about 1 in 6 Americans are sociopaths.

 

Well that's what the handy dandy imps of satan are for! Catch alls! Those damned sociopaths are demon possessed!

[MrSpooky]

I can remove the human conscience with a little brain surgery (bilaterally damage the orbitofrontal cortex).

 

Wow... I can kill God!

[Amanda]

That's an interesting way of looking at it, Amanda. I wouldn't consider the self-actualized state a "god" but it is something that, once all our needs are met, we aspire to.

Hi Amethyst! If we were to look at God as altruistic, then self actualization is the highest level of attaining a wise benevolent nature or someone in the god-nature.

But let's say that, for example, there was an alien planet. The aliens were completely the opposite from us. They thought that killing was fine, stealing, etc. for whatever reasons. In their culture, it'd be perfectly fine to kill someone over a stupid argument, and even expected. But for whatever reason, when they contacted our planet, they thought we were absolutely horrible for some small thing (say eating meat).

 

Can we honestly say that everyone has an inborn sense of justice, when our sense of justice comes from perceived cultural norms?

Amethyst, I would guess that is where reasoning comes into play. Yes, there are established morals or codes of conduct established by society, and there are these selfish internal drives to consider also. Should we blindly accept these instituted moral codes and have a guilty conscience for recognizing a desire of our heart for something that didn't match the institution? NO! IMO, the teachings of Jesus are saying to use REASON to clear your conscience! That is how positive reform takes place! It is also what drives out complacency so that we can have real peace, IMO.

 

One principle in these teachings attributed to 'Jesus' is that if a person steals from you does not make it okay for you to steal! We must do what is 'right' no matter what the other person does. If someone acts like a jerk, then we act like a jerk back... what does that accomplish?

 

Also, I heard on a talk show today where the host said if we allow gay marriages, then next it will be polygamous marriages. Where I live is a high gay/lesbian ratio, and I think they should be allowed to get married because I can use reason to understand if the established institution makes sense. This is a teaching of Jesus, so we are using the Jesus principle to clear our conscience. The radio host was suggesting that maybe polygamy will be tested next, and why not? If all parties are informed, consenting adults hurting no one... why not? IDK much about the subject, but it doesn't seem like it's any of governments business either.

 

Also, someone on this site told me they thought they read where a structured language is only about 10,000 years old! Think of the implication of language on the conscience, it's impact on its development! I've researched on the net the evolution of the conscience and can't find hardly anything! Long ago I suspected that OT 'sacrifices' were done to appeal to the formation of a conscience, however Jesus supposedly said it was time to put an end to that! I've found the NT makes the first comment of a conscience, and the middleages had some input, and then Freud brought it into recognition with his model. It seems to tie in heavily with our emotions, and I think our emotions and our spirit may be two different nomenclatures for the same thing.

 

 

I can remove the human conscience with a little brain surgery (bilaterally damage the orbitofrontal cortex).

 

Wow... I can kill God!

 

Hi Spooky! I agree! We too are gods. I think ALL things are parts of God. If you look at the earth as an organism, and we as part of these organs within it.... why would we want to essentially kill part of ourselves without any benficial 'reason' to do so?

[Amethyst]

Amethyst, I would guess that is where reasoning comes into play. Yes, there are established morals or codes of conduct established by society, and there are these selfish internal drives to consider also. Should we blindly accept these instituted moral codes and have a guilty conscience for recognizing a desire of our heart for something that didn't match the institution? NO! IMO, the teachings of Jesus are saying to use REASON to clear your conscience! That is how positive reform takes place! It is also what drives out complacency so that we can have real peace, IMO.

 

But in my example, the aliens don't have the same type of reasoning we do because their society is the opposite of ours. They don't have religion telling them what to believe or how to behave (or Satan for that matter). I'm trying to get you to picture another society and to think...what if people had a completely different perspective?

 

I don't think we can use the same rules to judge them, although if such an alien society came into contact with ours, most people probably would judge them and not try to comprehend how it came about because judging is much easier than understanding.

 

One principle in these teachings attributed to 'Jesus' is that if a person steals from you does not make it okay for you to steal! We must do what is 'right' no matter what the other person does. If someone acts like a jerk, then we act like a jerk back... what does that accomplish?

 

I don't believe in Jesus, okay? But I agree that it doesn't accomplish anything. Still, there are gray areas where you might have to steal. If you are starving and have no other options left, it's better to steal than to die. Of course, anyone can commit suicide by not stealing. But then they'll die. And I don't think anyone should be judged harshly for stealing food if they are starving and have no other way of getting it.

 

Also, I heard on a talk show today where the host said if we allow gay marriages, then next it will be polygamous marriages. Where I live is a high gay/lesbian ratio, and I think they should be allowed to get married because I can use reason to understand if the established institution makes sense. This is a teaching of Jesus, so we are using the Jesus principle to clear our conscience. The radio host was suggesting that maybe polygamy will be tested next, and why not? If all parties are informed, consenting adults hurting no one... why not? IDK much about the subject, but it doesn't seem like it's any of governments business either.

 

Again, I have found in my reading that homosexuality is primarily genetic. And I don't believe in Jesus, but even when I did, I didn't think it was fair to discriminate. I don't think religion should even enter into it. Discriminating against gays is like not allowing an African American and a Caucasian to get married, though states used to have laws against that. I do agree that if it is consentual, anyone of legal age should be allowed to marry another person.

[Skankboy]

Many cultures have found rationalizations for human sacrifice (aztecs, celts, judaism, etc). So I think we can see some of this even here on earth. When the christians first met the Aztecs, they felt the human sacrifices were EVIL! But what they failed to realize was that often times the "victim" in these ceremonies not only volunteered but in many cases had to compete for the HONOR of being the sacrifice. On the other hand, many missionaries had trouble converting the Native Americans because they were horrified at the idea of "communion" since they saw it as a cannibalistic rite!

 

[white_raven23]

I can remove the human conscience with a little brain surgery (bilaterally damage the orbitofrontal cortex).

 

Wow... I can kill God!

 

 

Ah Spooky! You got to it before I did!

 

Yeesh that Physiological Psychology is some scary shit! My prof told us the exact effects of burning out certain areas with an electric probe. Some of it was pretty freaky!

 

I can't remember which part of the brain it was (amygdala? hypothalamus?) but when it was burned out in a rat's brain.....the creature had to remain totally undisturbed in a pitch black room to be calm. Any stimulus sent the animal into homicidal berserker frenzy!

 

They stopped doing this experiment with students, when one of these altered rats got free in the classroom! Twenty people instantly abandoned the floor in favor of the big lab table in the middle of the room. And they couldn't call anyone for help without risking the escape of the mad rat out the lab door.

 

They got lucky and trapped the critter with an upside down trash can. Difficult enough when the floor is suddenly off limits, an exercise in side-show contortionism when managed by twenty people up on one table!

[MrSpooky]

Holy crap that is AWESOME.

 

I can remove the human conscience with a little brain surgery (bilaterally damage the orbitofrontal cortex).

 

Wow... I can kill God!

 

Hi Spooky! I agree! We too are gods. I think ALL things are parts of God. If you look at the earth as an organism, and we as part of these organs within it.... why would we want to essentially kill part of ourselves without any benficial 'reason' to do so?

 

Hey, Amanda. Gosh, I keep mixing you up with Amethyst, I think.

 

Anyways, I was just referring to the fact that much of ethics seems to stem from material causes, not transcendant ones.

[Merlinfmct87]

That's a really good point, Ethel. How does a perfect God miss a step on some of his children?

 

Regarding the posts about frying rat brains: That's the consistent pattern with God and the supernatural - it's always on the horizon, at the edges of our perception, the holes of our understanding. When our understanding expands, our superstition withers, decays, and vanishes...

 

Great thoughts, all. Truly.

 

Merlin

[SBeeland]

My conscience = proof of God? Maybe I'm an idiot but I just don't see the connection. I have a dick too, is that proof of God? Just don't see the connection, and its not like I refused to sit and think about it.

[Amanda]

But in my example, the aliens don't have the same type of reasoning we do because their society is the opposite of ours. They don't have religion telling them what to believe or how to behave (or Satan for that matter). I'm trying to get you to picture another society and to think...what if people had a completely different perspective?

Amethyst, are you saying that maybe there is a society that doesn't have an altruistic level they seem to be climbing towards, as in Maslow's model? If some society had different values than us, how could we then judge them? I would hope we could understand their perspective! However, it would also benefit us to make sure they understood our perspective too. We do have to set limits and boundaries when it comes to protection and securing people's rights. Hopefully a truce could be met till it got sorted out. Hopefully compassion is an aspect we consider.

I don't think we can use the same rules to judge them, although if such an alien society came into contact with ours, most people probably would judge them and not try to comprehend how it came about because judging is much easier than understanding.

I agree... it's easier to say they are wrong than to understand... and unfortunately many people usually do not take the time to understand.

And I don't think anyone should be judged harshly for stealing food if they are starving and have no other way of getting it.

I agree.

I don't think religion should even enter into it.

I agree. I think dogma has turned into an ugly monster. Spirituality is an ever growing, ever changing personal position, IMO, and not to be 'imposed' on anyone. Science, reason, and compassion are probably the most favorable factors in deliberating a stand with a clear conscience.

 

 

Anyways, I was just referring to the fact that much of ethics seems to stem from material causes, not transcendant ones.

Mr. Spooky, I do agree that ethics 'stem' from material causes, by observing the reprecussion of some action. Yet aren't the ethics then negotiated through reaching towards some sort of tanscendent thinking? Once we attain it, it is no longer transcendent. Yet, before we had it, it was. Does that make sense?

[Amethyst]

 

Amethyst, are you saying that maybe there is a society that doesn't have an altruistic level they seem to be climbing towards, as in Maslow's model? If some society had different values than us, how could we then judge them? I would hope we could understand their perspective! However, it would also benefit us to make sure they understood our perspective too. We do have to set limits and boundaries when it comes to protection and securing people's rights. Hopefully a truce could be met till it got sorted out. Hopefully compassion is an aspect we consider.

 

I'm not familiar with Maslow's model, but their idea of altruism would be much, much different from ours. For example, the vegetarian thing. Perhaps they value animals more highly than people for some bizarre reason. Maybe they come very close to worshipping animals. I don't know, it was just an off-the-top-of-my-head example, and I read lots of SF so I tend to think of things like that.

[Amanda]

I'm not familiar with Maslow's model, but their idea of altruism would be much, much different from ours. For example, the vegetarian thing. Perhaps they value animals more highly than people for some bizarre reason. Maybe they come very close to worshipping animals. I don't know, it was just an off-the-top-of-my-head example, and I read lots of SF so I tend to think of things like that.

Amethyst, I apologize... I think I know what you're saying now. You were quite clear, and I don't know where my mind was! So you're saying if there is a society like this SF example, their inner sense of justice would be based on that societal norm. And your question to me was:

 

Can we honestly say that everyone has an inborn sense of justice, when our sense of justice comes from perceived cultural norms?

 

And I'd have to say, that I agree in that this inner sense of justice is probably not hereditarily, nor magically 'inborn'. However, our sense of justice is establishing itself since birth (maybe before birth in the womb) according to the present social norm, so 'inborn' since birth from perceived cultural norms.

 

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, more info found here, says that once our basic needs are satisfied to a certain level we ultimately reach for a self actualized state of being. IMO, OT people coming out of the last ice age and finally starting a stable life instead of totally nomadic, now able to reach this altruistic thinking probably perceived that new inner voice as 'God' speaking to them... and maybe THAT is what we have come to know as God. I do think this has been a significant component in the initial stage of our conscience formation.

 

Our evolution from that point seems to have progressed to making laws, establishing the 'inborn' justice according to the culture of those times, extending into an obsession of perfecting laws to the tiniest detail of behavior (like how to wash your hands or one not be allowed in the temple if handicapped. ) It seems the microscopic specificity of these laws superceded their intention/purpose. If one didn't abide completely with ALL these laws, as bought into the social norm, it made them feel guilty. I think the conscience did not exist as we know it today, and there was the thought that one was either perfect or not.... hence the concept of all of mankind being a poor ol' sinner.

 

Maybe this character portrayed as 'Jesus' realized this method was condemning EVERYONE, and the self righteous were the worst ones for implementing such a degree for assessing condemnation! Now introducing the use of inductive and deductive REASONING, presented a few hundred years prior by Plato, Jesus now urged to critically REASON the intention of these laws as to what is really important! Offering the ability to reason between altruistic thinking and basic desires of nature, and the concept of grace/compassion eliminated condemnation/guilt. Perhaps these teachings identified this 'ache in our conscience' and provided ways to resolve or clear the inner turmoil. Perhaps these teachings of Christ for the clearing of our conscience can be considered the 'Christ' nature? IMO, what is important is how the message relates to concepts and not so much the nomenclature.

 

Just my $.02.

[Amethyst]

Amethyst, I apologize... I think I know what you're saying now. You were quite clear, and I don't know where my mind was! So you're saying if there is a society like this SF example, their inner sense of justice would be based on that societal norm. And your question to me was:

 

Yep. That's what I was saying.

 

Can we honestly say that everyone has an inborn sense of justice, when our sense of justice comes from perceived cultural norms?

 

And I'd have to say, that I agree in that this inner sense of justice is probably not hereditarily, nor magically 'inborn'. However, our sense of justice is establishing itself since birth (maybe before birth in the womb) according to the present social norm, so 'inborn' since birth from perceived cultural norms.

 

Eh, I don't know about before birth, but I would otherwise agree with you.

 

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, more info found here, says that once our basic needs are satisfied to a certain level we ultimately reach for a self actualized state of being. IMO, OT people coming out of the last ice age and finally starting a stable life instead of totally nomadic, now able to reach this altruistic thinking probably perceived that new inner voice as 'God' speaking to them... and maybe THAT is what we have come to know as God. I do think this has been a significant component in the initial stage of our conscience formation.

 

Okay, thanks. I seem to recall that from school somewhere along the way, but it's been a while.

 

Our evolution from that point seems to have progressed to making laws, establishing the 'inborn' justice according to the culture of those times, extending into an obsession of perfecting laws to the tiniest detail of behavior (like how to wash your hands or one not be allowed in the temple if handicapped. ) It seems the microscopic specificity of these laws superceded their intention/purpose. If one didn't abide completely with ALL these laws, as bought into the social norm, it made them feel guilty. I think the conscience did not exist as we know it today, and there was the thought that one was either perfect or not.... hence the concept of all of mankind being a poor ol' sinner.

 

Yeah, most of our laws do establish the sense of justice of our culture. But quite a few of our laws are arguably unjust, and many of them are so out of date they are known as blue laws. And there are quite a few unwritten rules in any given society, too. Like, it's not illegal for an adult to dress in nothing but an oversized baby's diaper and walk around that way, but 99% of people will look at you strangely unless it's on Halloween. Especially if it's in the middle of winter.