Ugarit

[Mythra]

Ugarit.

 

Who would have thought. (hell, I'd never even heard of it...) Possibly the precursor and origin of much of the Old Testament theology and ideas. El, Yahweh, Baal, Asherah, El Shaddai, El Elyon, - all Ugaritic in origin. The Hebrew alphabet? Ugaritic in origin. The Psalms, the Flood, the concept of a scapegoat? Ugaritic.

 

And I thought it all started with Father Abraham.

 

Funny this wasn't mentioned in sunday school.

 

Check it out

[loves_learning]

Yep Yep Yep. You should read the "Enuma Elish" a babylonian creation story...and "The Epic of Gilgamesh," which is the first major epic known...has the flood story and stuff. Also, the Egyptian text, "The Wisdom of Amenemope" which is a major source for a lot of stuff in Proverbs. Almost directly ripped off!!!

[♦ nivek ♦]

Good score Mythra, bookmarked.

 

Thanks man!

 

kL

[benjaburns]

The Hebrew alphabet? Ugaritic in origin.

 

What do you mean when you say "Hebrew alphabet"? The alphabet itself (the script) is actually phonecian in origin. It's descended from the same script that the Roman and Greek alphabets are.

 

Phonecian: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/phoenician.htm

Proto-Hebrew: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/aramaic.htm

Modern Hebrew (the one used in the bible): http://www.omniglot.com/writing/hebrew.htm

Latin: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/latin.htm

Greek: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/greek.htm

 

Of course, I just realized that the phonecians may have been Ugaritic. If so, then you're right

[Lycorth]

I just love links like these; I really enjoy seeing the cut and paste job that Xianity really is, and not just Xianity, but Judaism and Islam as well. Just bad counterfeits of religions that already existed.

[cathuria]

Thanks for the link, Mythra!

 

According to two books on my recent reading list (see below), the consensus among scholars seems to be that in the 2nd millenium BC, the Israelites actually shared the same or very similar language, culture, and religious observances of the biblically-despised Canaanites (Ugaritic folk).

 

It wasn't until after 1000 BC that the cult of Yahweh as the only god for the Hebrews began to take hold, and it wasn't until around 500-600 BC that the actual monotheistic worship of Yahweh became the practice of a majority of Hebrews.

 

ref:

The Early History of God, Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel; by Mark S. Smith

Myth & Mystery, An Introduction to the Pagan Religions of the Biblical World; by Jack Finegan

[Taphophilia]

Thanks Mythra,

 

I've bookmarked it for further reading.

 

What else is interesting is what he says on the home page of his site:

 

"I am a Christian and do respect the Bible as a book of faith not history. Holy books and their mythological stories are unreliable historical sources; however, some historical outlines may be used in very limited terms. So-called proofs of historical or genealogical significance based on all books of faith are respectfully rejected. Those who are displeased with my statements on these books are invited to leave this site immediately -- no discussions.

Fundamentalist Christians/Catholics, Jews or Muslims, consider yourselves duly warned that you will be severely dealt with, if you do not stop badgering me with your related impudent e-mails."

[Aqua Kitty]

Threads like this are why I love this site. I learn something here almost every day.

[aynalhub]

Just FYI, the Hebrew alphabet was poached whole-cloth from the Aramaic alphabet, which in turn had developed from the phoenician, as stated. It was not developed for Hebrew, but rather borrowed from the major language of the time.

 

Also, it is not certain that there is a relationship between the ugaritic cuneiform alphabet and the phoenician pictographic alphabets, and a lot of debate still rages.

 

What really did wow me in the early years of my research was how clear it is that the jews were in fact canaanites that later separated from the others, and not a separate people that came to canaan. The discovery of Ugaritic texts really threw a big monkey wrench in the mythology of the Hebrew Bible, taken as literal anyway.

 

What's great is that as a semitic philologist, I can use the Ugaritic texts to successfully translate particular words in the hebrew bible that have long been troublesome. Very fun.

[Lapdog]

What really did wow me in the early years of my research was how clear it is that the jews were in fact canaanites that later separated from the others, and not a separate people that came to canaan.

 

Yes - this is what made me realise the religion was just man-made. The religion was just one of a number this people had created for themselves over time. This explained so much - like how Jehovah had to tell Moses which god he was in the burning bush - "I am the god of blah blah blah" (note - these oily bushes combust naturally; the OT miracles were just the people's interpretation of natural phenomena). And how the Isrealites were often so flippant or disobedient to their religion - they were never wowed by actual miracles, it was just a cultural religion. Some of them believed it, some of them didn't, and they changed their minds a lot and also changed the base rules over time. They were also very tolerant of other religions - note that their religion never said other gods weren't real, just that the Isrealites should have no other gods before Jehovah. Also people worshipped other gods in the temple, and they even had ritual prostitution in the temple.

[Lycorth]

It really does boggle the mind when one considers how a world-wide, universalist megacult grew out of an offshoot of a bizarre little tribal religion practiced by a small segment of Middle-Eastern Semites.

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

Thanks for the link, Mythra. I always learn something from your posts!

 

[HolyShit]

I know this thread is old but I just found out about the Ugarit and am interested in the subject.

 

"There is one Ugaritic text which seems to indicate that among the inhabitants of Ugarit, Yahweh was viewed as another son of El. KTU 1.1 IV 14 says:

 

sm . bny . yw . ilt

 

“The name of the son of god, Yahweh.”

 

This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit, though not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El."

 

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm -  It's on a Christian website!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

 

"In the earliest stage Yahweh was one of the seventy children of El, each of whom was the patron deity of one of the seventy nations. This is illustrated by the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint texts ofDeuteronomy 32:8–9, in which El, as the head of the divine assembly, gives each member of the divine family a nation of his own, "according to the number of the divine sons": Israel is the portion of YHWH.^[46]"

 

Not sure how valid the Wiki source is but still.

 

Anyone know where online to find an English translation of the Ugarit? My first search came up empty.

 

Also, in light of this evidence does it mean that the Hebrew people most likely adopted the Ugarit pantheon of

gods and evolved their own religion from polytheism to monotheism?

 

Seems to be sort of a smoking gun, right?

[Geezer]

That is the kind of material that convinced me all religions are manmade bunk. Once a person becomes aware that this material exists it is almost inevitable that they will walk away from their religious beliefs. The problem, before the advent of the internet, was that the average person wasn’t aware this sort of information existed. Knowledge is indeed power. And in this case the power to overcome years of indoctrination.

[slave2six]

God's chosen people didn't even have the ability to write in their own language? What the hell good is god then? "Oi, I have an important announcement. In a couple hundred years, someone will teach you how to write it down." Lame lame lame.

[miekko]

God's chosen people didn't even have the ability to write in their own language? What the hell good is god then? "Oi, I have an important announcement. In a couple hundred years, someone will teach you how to write it down." Lame lame lame.

Uh, this sounds like a pretty dumb statement of the linguistic situation there. 

[HolyShit]

I just don't understand why this info is on a Christian website http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

 

Aren't they kind of shooting themselves in the foot?

[Joshpantera]

Jew-garit...

[mwc]

I know this thread is old but I just found out about the Ugarit and am interested in the subject.

 

"There is one Ugaritic text which seems to indicate that among the inhabitants of Ugarit, Yahweh was viewed as another son of El. KTU 1.1 IV 14 says:

 

sm . bny . yw . ilt

 

“The name of the son of god, Yahweh.”

 

This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit, though not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El."

 

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm -  It's on a Christian website!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

 

"In the earliest stage Yahweh was one of the seventy children of El, each of whom was the patron deity of one of the seventy nations. This is illustrated by the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint texts ofDeuteronomy 32:8–9, in which El, as the head of the divine assembly, gives each member of the divine family a nation of his own, "according to the number of the divine sons": Israel is the portion of YHWH.^[46]"

 

Not sure how valid the Wiki source is but still.

 

Anyone know where online to find an English translation of the Ugarit? My first search came up empty.

 

Also, in light of this evidence does it mean that the Hebrew people most likely adopted the Ugarit pantheon of

gods and evolved their own religion from polytheism to monotheism?

 

Seems to be sort of a smoking gun, right?

     Look for "The Ugaritic Baal Cycle Volume 1" by Mark Smith.  It should have English versions of this.  I would think it's on Google Books.

 

     Anyhow, most of what I've read on this seem to take yw and ym (from the next line) as the same god (Yammu not Yahweh since this is part of a naming ceremony and El names his son ym so if two gods are mentioned, with all the missing parts, it's very awkward explaining the one-off mention of yw here).  Maybe the names were equivalent somehow?  I don't know and I don't think there's anyway to know with the evidence at hand.

 

I just don't understand why this info is on a Christian website http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

 

Aren't they kind of shooting themselves in the foot?

     Not really.  They're presenting "evidence" of Yahweh outside the bible.  He's being acknowledged as a god.  It's ancient.  And so on.  Lots of boxes to check.  What they're doing is establishing that he existed and ancient people knew about him.  The problem was that they had "corrupted" the truth of him (as we "know" happened).  Then the truth came along with Moses in the desert and we can compare that absolute truth with these various corruptions to see the reality of what was always there.  Now we see he wasn't the son of El but the supreme god itself and the court of El were really angels and now we know that it works perfectly how the bible said all along.  The xian way.

 

          mwc

[HolyShit]

 

I know this thread is old but I just found out about the Ugarit and am interested in the subject.

 

"There is one Ugaritic text which seems to indicate that among the inhabitants of Ugarit, Yahweh was viewed as another son of El. KTU 1.1 IV 14 says:

 

sm . bny . yw . ilt

 

“The name of the son of god, Yahweh.”

 

This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit, though not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El."

 

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm -  It's on a Christian website!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

 

"In the earliest stage Yahweh was one of the seventy children of El, each of whom was the patron deity of one of the seventy nations. This is illustrated by the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint texts ofDeuteronomy 32:8–9, in which El, as the head of the divine assembly, gives each member of the divine family a nation of his own, "according to the number of the divine sons": Israel is the portion of YHWH.^[46]"

 

Not sure how valid the Wiki source is but still.

 

Anyone know where online to find an English translation of the Ugarit? My first search came up empty.

 

Also, in light of this evidence does it mean that the Hebrew people most likely adopted the Ugarit pantheon of

gods and evolved their own religion from polytheism to monotheism?

 

Seems to be sort of a smoking gun, right?

     Look for "The Ugaritic Baal Cycle Volume 1" by Mark Smith.  It should have English versions of this.  I would think it's on Google Books.

 

     Anyhow, most of what I've read on this seem to take yw and ym (from the next line) as the same god (Yammu not Yahweh since this is part of a naming ceremony and El names his son ym so if two gods are mentioned, with all the missing parts, it's very awkward explaining the one-off mention of yw here).  Maybe the names were equivalent somehow?  I don't know and I don't think there's anyway to know with the evidence at hand.

 

I just don't understand why this info is on a Christian website http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

 

Aren't they kind of shooting themselves in the foot?

     Not really.  They're presenting "evidence" of Yahweh outside the bible.  He's being acknowledged as a god.  It's ancient.  And so on.  Lots of boxes to check.  What they're doing is establishing that he existed and ancient people knew about him.  The problem was that they had "corrupted" the truth of him (as we "know" happened).  Then the truth came along with Moses in the desert and we can compare that absolute truth with these various corruptions to see the reality of what was always there.  Now we see he wasn't the son of El but the supreme god itself and the court of El were really angels and now we know that it works perfectly how the bible said all along.  The xian way.

 

          mwc

 

Right, I guess I'm just too skeptical to believe that. Hence, why I'm here.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Looked over the website linked in the OP;  very interesting.  Salim, its founder, describes himself as a liberal Eastern-rite Catholic.  I like many of his individual positions but don't find his appeals to his own private theological judgment convincing:

 

 http://phoenicia.org/positions.html

[Ravenstar]

I still want to know how the Hebrews get from Mount Ararat (Noah) to Egypt [Moses] (? MILLIONS of them)

 

What the evidence points to that they were Canaanites who broke off from mainstream Canaan society (Canaanite hicks really). The Ugarit texts and other archaeological evidence, just tell us that the roots of Judaism lie in Canaanite polytheism, but the apologists have to twist it to their purposes. The funny thing is.. the bible was good enough but now they want to use science (archaeology) to prove their little fairytale. Same idea as them denigrating science but then quoting the 2nd law of thermodynamics, on a computer.

 

This was a bad strategy for God… of all the great civilizations in the middle east at the time he couldn't reveal himself in any way except to some nomadic and illiterate Canaanite mountain goat-herders? Really? God needed a much better PR department.