benjaburns Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I was just reading the "Question: Are we just like them?" thread and it made me think of this. I'm sure most people on this board hate it when a Christian says "Atheists know deep down that God exists, they just deny him." So, where do we as atheists get permission to say similar things like "Faith is believing something you know ain't true?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I was just reading the "Question: Are we just like them?" thread and it made me think of this. I'm sure most people on this board hate it when a Christian says "Atheists know deep down that God exists, they just deny him." So, where do we as atheists get permission to say similar things like "Faith is believing something you know ain't true?" #1. We don't need to "get permission" to say anything. That's the beauty of being a free thinking human. I have no Atheist Handbook to quote from, neither. #2. Our opinion on what is Faith comes from TWO sources. 1) Our personal experience. Been there, done that, and 2) The Holy Babble. Hebrews 11:1. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. (Quoted from memory, thank you very much.) Sounds like "believing something you know ain't true" to me. Does this answer your question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evergreen Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I've never said that, and I don't think I've heard anyone else say it, either... I'm sure someone has, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friendly neighborhood atheist Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Everyone has the right to their opinion / view / belief or lack of them. Discusing it with others however leads to having to explain, and then defend, one's position. Taking the default position as an atheist, you and I are not the ones making claims of divinity or of the supernatural. Religionists do that. It is they who must defend the validity of their position, and in doing so demonstrate it's fallacy and illogic. Those of us who are atheists because of reason, and not just a gut reaction to religion being silly, (or lack of exposure to it), have developed the criteria to make a judgement that the claims of the religionist are false, or at best unprovable and in contradiction to science, logic and reason. Observation does not support their contention. So we tell them so. This is like telling your car to start when it won't however. Its likely to be just as successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua Kitty Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I got this definition of faith from a Christian website: Faith - confident belief in the truth of a person, idea, or thing. This belief is not based on logical proof. With Faith, one has hope, Trust, Love, and certainty that God is So really, a person (atheist or not) could say to a Christian (or any religious person) "Faith is believing something you can't prove," which is only slightly different from the way you said it ("Faith is believing something you know ain't true") and be absolutely correct according to the definition of the word "faith." I guess my point is that, yes, I think we do have the right to make such statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I was just reading the "Question: Are we just like them?" thread and it made me think of this. I'm sure most people on this board hate it when a Christian says "Atheists know deep down that God exists, they just deny him." So, where do we as atheists get permission to say similar things like "Faith is believing something you know ain't true?" The Constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friendly neighborhood atheist Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Carl Sagan used to say "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". And instead, we are asked to take these wild claims that defy physical law on "faith". But what exactly is "faith"? " 'Faith', noun: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks, without knowledge, of things without parallel." - Ambrose Bierce Yup, that pretty much sums it up. Belief based in ignorance, not information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 So, where do we as atheists get permission to say similar things like "Faith is believing something you know ain't true?" We get it because we can verify through multiple sources that the Bible is nothing more than mythology. Certainly we can't make the authoritative claim that God doesn't exist entirely though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Well, we're not all atheists here. But I would agree that everyone has a right to their own opinions and that the Constitution protects the right to free speech. There's no law yet that says we have to agree with someone on something, and I hope that law never gets passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non conformist Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 We certainly have the right to defend our position on faith or whatever other bullshit fundies claim to have proof of. I certainly don't give a shit if they think "deep down blah blah blah..." My position on faith and every other supernatural/religious subject or claim comes from research, study, discussion, etc.; so I am quite comfortable in telling a fundy that their faith is bullshit until proven otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Mark Twain wrote it. It is quoted because it's part funny and part true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I was just reading the "Question: Are we just like them?" thread and it made me think of this. I'm sure most people on this board hate it when a Christian says "Atheists know deep down that God exists, they just deny him." So, where do we as atheists get permission to say similar things like "Faith is believing something you know ain't true?" The Constitution. Ditto that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaburns Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 Actually, I didn't mean "where do we get permission to say the sentence itself". I meant "where do we get the right to say that deep down they know there's no God when we hate it when they say the same thing to us?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Everyone has a right to their opinion and to express it, even if that opinion might offend others. Everyone also has the right not to like other people's opinions. Fundy Christians don't have to like ours just as much as we don't have to like theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Actually, I didn't mean "where do we get permission to say the sentence itself". I meant "where do we get the right to say that deep down they know there's no God when we hate it when they say the same thing to us?" If by this you mean "where do we get the right to shove our beliefs down Xian throats (which ex-xians sometimes do)?" then of course the answer is that we don't have that right. But we certainly do have the right to our opinions, and to defend them if we are attacked or belittled for them - Xians aren't the only ones who get flack for having ideas that others do not agree with, and they aren't the only ones who have a moral obligation to defend themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaburns Posted March 1, 2006 Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 If by this you mean "where do we get the right to shove our beliefs down Xian throats (which ex-xians sometimes do)?" then of course the answer is that we don't have that right. But we certainly do have the right to our opinions, and to defend them if we are attacked or belittled for them - Xians aren't the only ones who get flack for having ideas that others do not agree with, and they aren't the only ones who have a moral obligation to defend themselves. Well, the reason I object to the statement "Atheists know deep down that God exists" is because I don't know deep down that he exists. Thus, it could be easily said that saying "Faith is believing something you know ain't true" is wrong because they might not know it's not true. That's why I'm wondering whether we have the right to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padreko Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Actually, I didn't mean "where do we get permission to say the sentence itself". I meant "where do we get the right to say that deep down they know there's no God when we hate it when they say the same thing to us?" I think what he's getting at is that "christians know deep down that there is no god" is essentially the inverse of "atheist know deep down inside that there is a god". Those statements alone are equally invalid because one cannot justifiably pressume to know what someone else knows. So I agree they are stupid claims. err... I should clarify that "faith is believing something that you know aint true" = "christians know deep down that God doesn't exist". Currently listening to Milk and Sugar - Let the Sun Shine (Deux Mix) <----- this song is amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I was just reading the "Question: Are we just like them?" thread and it made me think of this. I'm sure most people on this board hate it when a Christian says "Atheists know deep down that God exists, they just deny him." So, where do we as atheists get permission to say similar things like "Faith is believing something you know ain't true?" #1. We don't need to "get permission" to say anything. That's the beauty of being a free thinking human. I have no Atheist Handbook to quote from, neither. #2. Our opinion on what is Faith comes from TWO sources. 1) Our personal experience. Been there, done that, and 2) The Holy Babble. Hebrews 11:1. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. (Quoted from memory, thank you very much.) Sounds like "believing something you know ain't true" to me. Does this answer your question? guess that guy ask the wrong question of the wrong guy. Mr. Grinch, once again, you spoke very eloquently... Kudos to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Actually, I didn't mean "where do we get permission to say the sentence itself". I meant "where do we get the right to say that deep down they know there's no God when we hate it when they say the same thing to us?" I don't know that God exists, It's not the same as saying he doesn't exist. I don't believe nor do I disbelieve, I hate it when they quote things to me because its standardized dogma and nothing more. The meaning of faith alone is to believe it's true with out any facts to support it, in other words its a strong hope. Because they are willing to dismiss facts or questions doesn't mean we need to go along, They also try to use their dogma to prove their dogma is true It drives me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padreko Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Actually, I didn't mean "where do we get permission to say the sentence itself". I meant "where do we get the right to say that deep down they know there's no God when we hate it when they say the same thing to us?" I don't know that God exists, It's not the same as saying he doesn't exist. I don't believe nor do I disbelieve, I hate it when they quote things to me because its standardized dogma and nothing more. The meaning of faith alone is to believe it's true with out any facts to support it, in other words its a strong hope. Because they are willing to dismiss facts or questions doesn't mean we need to go along, They also try to use their dogma to prove their dogma is true It drives me.. Its not a question of whether or not god exists - its a question of presuming what someone elses knows! And presuming to know what someone else knows is crazy right? That is his point.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Actually, I didn't mean "where do we get permission to say the sentence itself". I meant "where do we get the right to say that deep down they know there's no God when we hate it when they say the same thing to us?" I don't know about you, but I didn't get any engraved invite to be on this site. It's a freethinking site. If they don't like the content here -- and opinions of the people posting then they can just stay the hell off of this site. there are plenty of fundie sites they could go to and get their religious rocks off...they don't need to do the verbal masterbation and pontification here. If by this you mean "where do we get the right to shove our beliefs down Xian throats (which ex-xians sometimes do)?" then of course the answer is that we don't have that right. But we certainly do have the right to our opinions, and to defend them if we are attacked or belittled for them - Xians aren't the only ones who get flack for having ideas that others do not agree with, and they aren't the only ones who have a moral obligation to defend themselves. Well, the reason I object to the statement "Atheists know deep down that God exists" is because I don't know deep down that he exists. Thus, it could be easily said that saying "Faith is believing something you know ain't true" is wrong because they might not know it's not true. That's why I'm wondering whether we have the right to say it. Never under estimate the power of denial -- american beauty 1998. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Amplifier Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 I was just reading the "Question: Are we just like them?" thread and it made me think of this. I'm sure most people on this board hate it when a Christian says "Atheists know deep down that God exists, they just deny him." So, where do we as atheists get permission to say similar things like "Faith is believing something you know ain't true?" In my opinion, your question touches on the topic of intellectual ethics. For more insight into The Ethics of Belief, I recommend reading the essay of the same name by W.K. Clifford. I also recommend the End of Faith, by Sam Harris. Clifford provided compelling arguments regarding the ethics of belief, and contended that "it is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence." One of Clifford’s contentions was that the question of right or wrong, when it comes to matter of belief, has to do with the origin of beliefs and whether or not a person has a right to believe on matters for which they have little or no justification, or evidence, for believing. When a Christian states says "Atheists know deep down that God exists, they just deny him", they are staking a claim in a belief for which they have no right to believe based on the evidence before them. Their belief behind such statements is not predicated on a patient and skeptical investigation of the matter at hand, rather, it comes from a book of iron age mythology, that they unethically and uncritically believe to be the Word of God. Further, they can only hold onto their belief in such a statement by stifling doubts about the very foundation of their belief in light of scientific knowledge mankind has slowly accrued over the last several centuries. Based on the standards of evidence that prevailed over the centuries the books of the bible were written, it is understandable how dogmatic thinkers uncritically accepted it. Not so today. Only by faith, by stifling doubts and continuing to believe in a book that is chock full of contradictions when viewed in the light of scientific knowledge mankind has slowly accrued over the last several centuries, can they hold onto belief in the bible being the Word of God, and the bible’s statements about the fool in heart saying there is no God. Christians can only believe in the bible’s fantastic and untestable supernatural assertions by faith. Belief without evidence is a thing of little value. Sam Harris offered examples in the End of Faith that if you tell a Christian that their significant other is cheating of them, or that drinking diet soda bestows mutant superpowers to people, the Christian will likely require as much evidence as any other rational person. However, tell them that the bible is the Word of God, or that atheists really know God exists, but only deny him, and they seem to require no evidence whatsoever. When a nontheist calls into question the intellectual, epistemological and ethical foundations of faith (especially religious faith), we are not doing anything wrong. Nor do we need permission to do so. The better question is, what right do people have to believe in things for which they have no justification or evidence to believe in? What right did the 911 suicide bombers have to believe they would go to paradise? What right do Christians have to stake faith in the bible as the Word of God? Based on what we know, understand and have learned of the universe around us, I say they have none. Calling into questions a person's religious beliefs has been a cultural taboo, but unless we step up and start saying things like "faith is believing something you know ain't true", we only open the way for Islamic suicide bombers, Christian abortion clinics bombers, creationist seeking to up-end science and ban evolution from public schools, and other egregious religiously motived behavior whose roots feed in the empty, but potentialy dangerous vessel of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Actually, I didn't mean "where do we get permission to say the sentence itself". I meant "where do we get the right to say that deep down they know there's no God when we hate it when they say the same thing to us?" I think what he's getting at is that "christians know deep down that there is no god" is essentially the inverse of "atheist know deep down inside that there is a god". Those statements alone are equally invalid because one cannot justifiably pressume to know what someone else knows. So I agree they are stupid claims. err... I should clarify that "faith is believing something that you know aint true" = "christians know deep down that God doesn't exist". See, that's why I'm agnostic. I can't say for 100% sure that god doesn't exist, but I can say with certainty that it's not the JudeoChristian god, and it's also probably not any god currently worshipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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