Argument For The Justice Of Hell

[AbsolutPauer]

Okay, okay. So I've been debating with this Christian minister friend of mine for the past four months about various aspects of Christian doctrine and the Bible, and we're about to tackle the issue of Hell. I personally am convinced that there is nothing just at all about the doctrine of Hell, and I'm trying to engage my minister friend on his own ground (assuming the existence of God and general truth of Scripture as a historical document ) in order to demonstrate to him the inherent injustice of the doctrine. I'm trying to tackle it from the perspective that Hell essentially amounts to infinite punishment for finite sins. Here is a fairly common Christian response to that charge:

 

"There is [an] infinite aspect to our sin, which is that it is rebellion against an infinitely righteous and deserving God. God is perfectly good and loving and has provided us with all we need; he has even gone to the extent of experiencing our life on Earth (as God the Son, Jesus Christ) and suffering and dying - for our wrongs against him! - so that he can offer us forgiveness and eternal happiness. God deserves our love and obedience to the utmost. When we sin against him, we deny him what is his infinite due, and we spit in the face of the person who has loved us the most."

 

Now this idea is certainly supported by Scripture (Matthew 25:31-46), and I have a few ideas as to why it's wrong, but I thought I'd get some feedback from our board members here. Anyone wanna take a shot at blowing this argument out of the water?

[Skankboy]

Well, for one: wouldn't that also imply that all of our good acts are infinitely good?

[SkepticOfBible]

God is perfectly good and loving and has provided us with all we need; he has even gone to the extent of experiencing our life on Earth (as God the Son, Jesus Christ) and suffering and dying -

Why would an Omniscient God need to do that?If you are making a computer game, do you need to part of the world, to understand how the computer characters feel when they get shot.

 

Ask him to prove this from the OT

 

There is [an] infinite aspect to our sin, which is that it is rebellion against an infinitely righteous and deserving God.

 

The OT made it quite clear that most of the sins would be punished in this life, and it doesn't mention about hell.

 

Think about it, Jesus who is supposed to save us from "hell", is not even mentioned in the OT. Just in case, they say "hell" is part of the progressive revelation, do tell quote them

 

Amos 3:7

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

 

The Old Testament indicates that God doesn't withhold major doctrinal issues (such as hell) from his prophets. It seems quite obvious where this concept came from(hint:Hades - greek mythology)

 

Also, the OT doesn't mention anything about gaining salvation through faith in illegal human sacrifice of the messiah. The saviour is already mentioned in the OT

 

Isa 45:21-23

...there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour ; there is none beside me.

 

And the process to gain salvation is also mentioned

 

Psa 119:174

I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

 

Ezek 18:20-22

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

 

Each person will die for their own sin and will redeem themselves by turning from their past sins, and by doing what is lawful and right, which means keeping all of God's statutes(laws).

 

There is no need for a human sacrifice savior called Jesus in the first place. All of the Christian advertising about Jesus being needed to fix God's faulty system of laws and salvation is man-made, invented dogma.

The New revised Covenant Of Christianity

 

Also according to Hebrew God, he will not give his glory to another, and not some sort of three distinct "persons" wrapped into one God

 

Isa 42:8

I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another(including Jesus), neither my praise to graven images.

 

Second of all, under this system, Jews who died under perscution of the Nazi's are right now burning in hell, whereas their Christian persecutors could repent and enjoy the eternal life.

So the "jews", god chosen people, would get fucked in this life, and will also get fucked in the afterlife.

 

Do check out the following

Sermon on hell - debunked

 

Since this christian also believes in absolutes, do tell him under this system, Mentally challenged and babies would also go to hell because of the original "sin"/rebellion. This is because many of them say that people who have not heard the Gospel will goto hell, because of the original sin. He is probably gonna raise "age of accountability", which has no scriptural evidence.

 

God Became A Man & Other Christian Musings(including Age of Accountablity0

 

If u liked the articles that i presented in the post, do go through the other articles. You can pretty much debate any christian by using their bible against themselves.

[Mythra]

Now this idea is certainly supported by Scripture (Matthew 25:31-46

 

Who cares if it's supported by scripture?

 

It's contradicted by humanity. By our deepest felt sense of right and wrong. Every person knows that there is no evil that a person could do in this short life that could warrant eternal suffering.

 

Christians know it too. They bury the intrinsic knowledge and try and justify it by saying "God's ways are not our ways"..

 

But every christian personally knows 100 (or 500) people that do not deserve hell, yet are headed there according to christian rules.

 

Only a complete cold-hearted inhuman monster could possibly just shrug it off and say "oh well, they chose it"..

 

And speaking of monsters, if hell were real, that is what Yahweh would be. (if he were real that is)

[Vigile]

God is perfectly good and loving and has provided us with all we need

 

Xtians always use the father analogy to explain god's relationship with us. In what alternative dimension would it be ok for a human father to set impossible standards for his children and then demand a rigid requirement in order to be forgiven; moreover design a system of punishment as horrific as hell? Nearly everyone who warms a pew on Sunday would be disgusted by such a father. Nearly every pew warmer would never dare sentance their children to even a finite stay in a human prison even if the crimes of their children happened to be horrific. Anyone with such a lack of capacity to forgive equal to biblegod should be and is deemed psychopathic. Don't we all teach our children that it takes a bigger man to forgive and forget than to hold a grudge?

 

But of course your pastor friend will use some slippery argument that makes no logical sense and then declare a victory in his own mind.

[Taphophilia]

No reference to hell in the OT. They die.

 

ADAM AND EVE WERE NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

 

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall SURELY DIE" (Gen. 2:17).

 

"In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground: for out of it were you taken; for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return" (Gen. 3:19).

 

Death began immediately. Notice a better translation of Gen. 2:17:

 

"…to die shall you BE DYING" (Concordant Old Testament).

 

Their life was but a slow death until they returned to the dust of the ground. They came from the earth and they returned to that earth.

 

God cursed the serpent, and God cursed the ground, but nowhere did God curse Adam and Eve. God pointed out the different judgments against Adam and Eve, such as multiplied childbearing pains, sorrow in gathering food all the days of his life, thorns, thistles, and sweat, but no mention of punishment in death or after death.

 

CAIN WAS NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

 

Notice very carefully God’s conversation with Cain:

 

"But unto Cain and to his offering He (God) had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why are you wroth? And why is your countenance fallen? If you do well, shall you not be accepted? And if you do not well, SIN lies at the door. And unto you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him" (Gen. 4:5-7).

 

God warned Cain that if he did not do well, that sin would be at his door. But did God say "endless torment and punishment would be at his door?" No.

 

"And Cain talked with Abel, his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and slew him. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper? And He said, What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries unto Me from the ground.

 

And now are you cursed from the earth which has opened her mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand: When you till the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto you her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shall you be in the earth" (Verses 8-12).

 

Cain's reply:

 

"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me out this day from the face of the earth, and from Your face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth: and it shall come to pass, that every one (any one) that finds me shall slay me" (Verse 13-14).

 

Cain thought being a fugitive and vagabond and having poor crops was greater than he could bear. What would he have thought had God told him that he would be punished for all eternity in some hellish pit of fire?

 

"And the Lord said unto him, Therefore, whosoever slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him" (Verse 15).

 

Cain is a murderer. It doesn’t get much worse than that. Not only a murderer, but, a murderer of his OWN BROTHER. But God tells us that if someone should find and slay Cain the murderer, then that person would have vengeance taken on him seven times greater?

 

There is nothing greater, or "seven TIMES greater" than an eternity of torture in fire. Then how is it possible that any who would kill Cain, would have a punishment "seven times greater" than Cain, if his punishment is to be tortured in real fire endlessly?

 

Cain died, just as his parents died. But there is no punishment in death. Cain’s "punishment" was here on this earth while Cain was still alive, not after. And likewise, anyone who found and killed Cain would have punishment on this earth while they were still alive, "seven times greater," than that of Cain.

 

NO ONE BEFORE THE FLOOD WAS WARNED OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

 

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and everything that is in the earth shall DIE" (Gen. 6:5 & 17).

 

All mankind are said to be only evil continually. That’s a lot of evil. And what does God say their punishment for all this evil will be? They shall die.

 

Punished endlessly? No, they "shall die."

 

Did God lie to the whole world?

 

It apparently took a hundred years to build the ark, and so for a hundred years Noah warned the world that God would kill them for their wickedness. Though, not one word that God would punish them endlessly after they died.

 

"All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, DIED" (Gen. 7:22).

 

Why doesn’t even one of these verses tell us that this wicked people will be judged in death and then sentenced to an eternity of torture in real fire?

 

Why wouldn’t God give us at least one verse somewhere on the OT?

 

Did Jesus say that those in the flood are now being punished and tortured for eternity? No. "…and the flood came and destroyed them all" (Luke 17:27).

 

Taph

[Jedah]

Arguments such as these are nothing but red herrings. They attempt to ignore the real problems of hell with self-rightous banter.

 

The huge problem is that christians simply ignore their own hypocrisy. They ignore the fact that they to have sinned and that the only thing that sets them apart from others is they chose christianity . All of the religious right banter that you deserve infinite punishment for the rejection of an infinite being is nothing but one big non sequitor that only attempts to turn your attention away from the REAL deal . They are preventing themselves from accepting the fact that gods plan to spread his word and get us saved is a failure. He might as well have given us a dice at the beginning of our life and if it falls on 6 when we die we go to heaven and hell if anything else.

 

The first huge gaping hole in their reasoning is that technically no one actually rejects their god. No one who isnt christian thinks the faith holds validity . You cannot reject something when you dont even believe in it to begin with. Non christians do not "Spit on god and give him the finger" like christians attempt to make it out as. Non christians dont believe in god for the simple reason that they do not have any reason to believe christianity holds any more validity over any other faith. And do you know whos fault that is ? The creators.

 

Ask your friend this:

 

If you were on an island and a little girl flipped you off, if you knew that on the island the middle finger meant "peace" would you still get angry ? Would you still believe she deserves punishment ? If your a christian then then the answer is yes. Christians are saying that god is still justified in his judgement because what we have done to him - but really, is any non christians act of non belief for the reason that christians seem to think it is ? HA! No. Not even close.

 

I have learned from christians that you can use the word "Faith" to justify anything even if its obviously contradictory. GOd knows the answer and therefore all is well as long as we have faith he does. What christians fail to realize is that this kind of reasoning can be used to justify ANYTHING because this kind of reasoning is nothing but mere strawgrasping.

 

The response by christians boils down to the same response they have to everything "Have faith" and this is due to the fact that they have been brainwashed into believing that faith is a good moral to have. It isnt. Faith in the way christians define it is the biggest and most obviously assinine double standard that exists today.

 

In conclusion if you are a christian and you believe the generally accepted view of hell is correct then you are a hypocrit. You claim to care about others more then yourself but when it comes down to it you believe that you are somehow better then others when it comes to figuring out where to put your faith which by definition cannot be based on reasoning . "believe it because its true" Christians are essentially claiming that they are better then everyone else in a way that is so roundabout that they dont even realize it themselves. Their reason you should believe their faith over everyone elses faith ? Faith. How is hell justified ? Faith . OOGA BOOGA BOOGA ? Faith.

[Lycorth]

Beautiful and succinct responses, Skeptic and Taphie. All in two nutshells are found the reasons why Hell is an unjust and Babblically unsound idea, for the Xians out there.

 

And as Mythra said, who cares if it has perfect Babblical support? It is sick and wrong by dint of its definition. Infinite, unending, extreme torture for finite, easily forgotten sins? When one person does wrong to another, eventually the victim forgets it, save in extreme cases. Even then, they are usually quick to try and forget, and live as if it never happened. We do not have in our hearts any justification for eternal torment for an offense that, if we can forget, certainly a god can forget.

 

The idea of Hell is sick and twisted, and proves the nature of the brains that thought it up.

[jrmarlin]

Non christians dont believe in god...

The only problem I have with this is not all non-christians do not believe in god. Many other religions that are considered not non-christians do believe in god - or a likeness thereas - but do not believe in the doctrine of christianity. So to say that all non-christians do not believe in god is not correct; however, the rest of the post was dead on.

 

Xians feel this frevalent need to profess they have the inside track, on the guest list to rock n' roll heaven because they're god-groupies. Yes, they do feel their hypocrisy is non-existent even though to "thinkers" and other belief systems, they are about as far from perfection and sinlessness as a person can humanly - or godly - get.

[Mythra]

Supported by "scripture".. According to the "word of God"..

 

Why not tell the truth - "there is a sentence in a book which says...."

 

 

There is also a sentence in that same book that says - "the wages of sin is death" . Death. Screaming for eternity isn't death.

 

And here is the honest truth: "the wages of life is death".

[Kryten]

Here's a summation of the problem (repeating some of the above points):

 

God says over and over, for centuries, to his chosen people, that the wages of sin is DEATH!

God says that each person will pay for his own sins.

God never mentioned to Moses anything about hell or eternal torture when He was communicating His laws and punishments to His people, or to anyone else in the next thousand years or so.

 

Then, according to the story, this Jesus guy shows up, says things that prove he is NOT from God (i.e. breaking the sabbath, changing God's laws, lying, making false predictions, etc.)...

Hundreds of years later the stories are refined and the NT is formed.

It is full of contradictory accounts (Jesus' geneology, the birth, death and resurrection), and there is no physical or historical evidence that any of the story is true (outside a few facts such as Jerusalem actually did exist in 33AD).

 

So, the Big Test is that we are supposed to examines the details of the bible; the lack of actual historical evidence that any of it is true; and look at the FACT that god never heals amputees or the blind or the deaf; and then be condemed to eternal torture because we don't buy the stories??

 

Isn't your friend in a similar situation when it comes to Islam?

[SkepticOfBible]

Here's a summation of the problem (repeating some of the above points):

 

God says over and over, for centuries, to his chosen people, that the wages of sin is DEATH!

 

Slight correction here, not all "sins" entailed the death penalty.

[Golden Meadows]

"There is [an] infinite aspect to our sin, which is that it is rebellion against an infinitely righteous and deserving God. God is perfectly good and loving and has provided us with all we need; he has even gone to the extent of experiencing our life on Earth (as God the Son, Jesus Christ) and suffering and dying - for our wrongs against him! - so that he can offer us forgiveness and eternal happiness. God deserves our love and obedience to the utmost. When we sin against him, we deny him what is his infinite due, and we spit in the face of the person who has loved us the most."

 

 

As a finite being there is no sin I commit that can be infinite in its duration or in its perfect malice. Since I am not perfect I can not sin perfectly. God has made me imperfectly, not just in limitations of powers but with a decided inclination to do that which he considers offensive, i.e. if I accept the traditional xtian doctrine of original sin I accept that my intellect is clouded and cannot always discern clearly right from wrong. Even if I do know that something is displeasing to the xtian god he has made me such that I can desire strongly to do it anyway. He has also arranged to be an invisible god such that not only am I unsure as to his will in all things but even to his very existence. If the xtian god would have me condemned infinitely then justice says he should have given me infinite powers in order to avoid such a fate.

 

As a side issue xtian theology may put forward the argument that nobody sins in heaven because they have the beatific vision. This supports the points made above since the imperfect being in knowledge of God now experiences the full presence of God and does not desire to separate itself from the source of all perfection's. Justice then says that no soul should suffer an infinite punishment because it has never experienced the perfect knowledge and presence of the beatific vision. If the xtian god does not want us to go to hell and suffer an infinite punishment then why does he not give us all the beatific vision and then like the souls in heaven we will not want to sin?

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

"There is [an] infinite aspect to our sin, which is that it is rebellion against an infinitely righteous and deserving God. God is perfectly good and loving and has provided us with all we need; he has even gone to the extent of experiencing our life on Earth (as God the Son, Jesus Christ) and suffering and dying - for our wrongs against him! - so that he can offer us forgiveness and eternal happiness. God deserves our love and obedience to the utmost. When we sin against him, we deny him what is his infinite due, and we spit in the face of the person who has loved us the most."

 

 

More christian hand-waving.....

 

Exactly what is "infinite righteousness" and exactly why would an

"infinitely righteous" gawd need anything from finite human beings?

And why does a "perfectly good," "infinitely righteous," all-powerful

deity have to go through the exercise of having to kill himself (umm,

OK, his "son") to forgive us of our "sins"? Wouldn't he be capable

of simply forgiving us, without all the blood and gore? So, either

the christian gawd is not all-powerful (can't forgive us without the

spilling of blood), or he is not "infinitely righteous" (he could forgive

us, but because he's a wee bit sado-masochistic, he'd rather spill

blood to go through this forgiveness process, and even then, he

won't forgive us unless we are somehow dumb enough to believe

that any of this could possibly be true).

 

Yeah, we got a real winner of a religion here.

[Vigile]

 

Very nice post MM