dr_funkenstein Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I was just wondering about the likelihood of a christian being convinced by reason and logic when arguing against an atheist. I'd like to know if anyone has ever been in a full-on argument with a defensive christian only to find the christian turn around and say "You know what? You've made some good points... I'm going to have to reconsider my belief system here..." My own experience is that I was only open to the arguments against christianity once I'd been shaken by a traumatic experience in my life. Up until then I would have defended my faith to my dying breath, so convinced was I of the "truth" of christianity. So do you think it's possible to actually reason a christian out of their beliefs and into freethought, or does it require the christian to approach the subject with doubts already formed in their mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBeeland Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I've never heard of anyone reasoning with a christian and the christian coming out an athiest, unless they already had doubts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aynalhub Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I've seen gazillions of species of fundie having grown up in the A/G and I would say that it is somewhat futile and that people who leave their faith are already dying to get out. Neurology is showing us that people join and stay in religions because it's easier than not, and that it is largely due to the same inference systems that allow us to deal with animals, objects and other people. I would no sooner try to talk a pedophile out of being a pedophile, it's no good. Throw a monkey wrench in the ol' computer and a fundie will be shaken for a day or two and then revel in all the perks again soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I think it's possible. I once had the opportunity with my sister to do so, but backed away, because I lived at home at the time and I didn't want to make any waves about that subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Only possible with people who can admit they are wrong, and those people are few and far between no matter what side of the line they are on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 .......... So do you think it's possible to actually reason a christian out of their beliefs and into freethought....? No. Why Christians Just Don't Get It Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Simple answer? No. Complex answer involved pie charts, and tons of semi-scriptural answers, and a lot of industrial lubricants to force fit in to a space it wasn't meant to go. Vote with Ockham, and use the simple answer first. Often if you do find a a BiPed becoming a human, there is no "Damascus Road" experience, but a set of shits and giggles that has caused the person to come to the point where you find them. The Easy Answer Jar has no answer for this one. kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I suppose it'd depend on how attached to their dogma they are. Dogmatism isn't conducive to a willingness to listen to reason. Faith isn't reasonable anyway, it's purely emotional. I suspect to reason a Xian out of it, they'd have to have some uncertainty in their mind already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Ditto that; the only Xians you can talk to are those who have doubts already. The ones who are thoroughly brainwashed by their cult - er, "on fire for the Lard!" - are another story, and you'd might as well try talking to a dildo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_funkenstein Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 Thanks guys - yeah I guess I just wanted to make a point. When I see how much better off I am for having forsaken belief in invisible men in the sky who love me, it really makes me want to try and help other christians do the same - kind of an "anti-evangelism" I guess you'd call it. I really think that such efforts are an exercise in futility on the whole, however so I don't think I'm going to waste my energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loves_learning Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I disagree with most of the posts here...only because I was one who WAS reasoned out of it. Long story short, I converted to a fundamentalist type church at the age of 16, and was definetly "on-fire" into college. I started taking classes about religious studies because I was so curious about why people would be in other religions if mine was the best. Arrogant, yes...naive...yep...but damn, it worked! It was a loooong process, but because I always prided myself on my intellect, I was at least open enough to listen to my profs. Initially, after the first onslaughts to my faith, I had a "faith-backlash" in a sense, and turned more charismatic than ever. But...because I kept seeking answers to my questions, I eventually learned that I had to let it go. So, yes, I do think it is possible. But, you have to invest A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY...as in several years potentially. That's what it took for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Heh - well, LovesLearning, looks like you may be odd wo/man out... But I'm glad you've posted, since your experience demonstrates that it can be done. Which the jaded old woman in me is glad to know. Maybe there's hope. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Dr. you have to understand a basic thing about human nature. Most humans possess a pack mentality. To go against the "grain" is a very dicy thing. All of us non or ex chistians have gone through our own persecution and staunch questioning as to why we believe or not believe some things. (funny how christians are allowed to get pissy when questioned by have no problem being very intrusive with others...) Anyhoo, a xian will not just throw down the gaunlet because what you're asking is way too much for some. Their whole lives revolve around their cult community. All their friends. Their social activities. Everything they do, say and see leads them to go with the pack. Some are wooed by the money others have in their church i.e. Scientology with Tom Cruise and John Travolta. Others wooed by a sense of peace they preceive is real. We all know it's not real. But they aren't in that space yet. I know I make several references to the movie the Matrix, but if you watch it - bar all the fighting and entertainment value and Keneu's cute ass, it has a very anti-christian meaning to it. Here is some of the quotes perhaps you can see how they would fit in: "The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it." "Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth. Neo: What truth? Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind." "Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it." "Morpheus: Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize just as I did that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path." "Morpheus: What is "real"? How do you define "real"?" "Oracle: I'd ask you to sit down, but, you're not going to anyway. And don't worry about the vase. Neo: What vase? [Neo turns to look for a vase, and as he does, he knocks over a vase of flowers, which shatters on the floor] Oracle: That vase. Neo: I'm sorry... Oracle: I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix it. Neo: How did you know? Oracle: Ohh, what's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?" "Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." These are very anti-xian statements as they completely eradicate the whole reason xianity has survived all these years. They prey on people who are afraid to think for themselves. On people who do not want to take responsibility for their actions, their thoughts, their decisions. Religion is a virus. It spreads - conquering and trying to change everything in its path. Simply put, it's peer pressure because no one wants to think themselves an outcast, different. No one that has not been unplugged that is. Therefore, long story short, to wake up or unplug a christian is impossible unless they are ready.... "Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it." Quotes from the Matrix were taken from IMDB Matrix Quotes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua Kitty Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I disagree with most of the posts here...only because I was one who WAS reasoned out of it. Long story short, I converted to a fundamentalist type church at the age of 16, and was definetly "on-fire" into college. I started taking classes about religious studies because I was so curious about why people would be in other religions if mine was the best. Arrogant, yes...naive...yep...but damn, it worked! It was a loooong process, but because I always prided myself on my intellect, I was at least open enough to listen to my profs. Initially, after the first onslaughts to my faith, I had a "faith-backlash" in a sense, and turned more charismatic than ever. But...because I kept seeking answers to my questions, I eventually learned that I had to let it go. So, yes, I do think it is possible. But, you have to invest A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY...as in several years potentially. That's what it took for me. *raises hand* I was more or less reasoned out of it also. I guess I would be a Catholic version of what loves_learning said, and it took me a very, very long time also to finally admit that I was done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadouKen24 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I reasoned my way out of Christianity, too. Not on purpose, mind you; the rational bit of my brain dragged me out kicking and screaming. But I found that I couldn't ignore a great deal of difficulties with Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstInTheDance Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Well yeah, MANY of us EVENTUALLY, often after years of struggle/denial, left Christianity because it defied reason. But I took the question to be whether or not a Christian could be deconverted by reason, say in the space of a debate. My answer is that it might be possible to talk a Christian out of Christianity if they are very lukewarm to begin with. And it may be possible to plant seeds of doubt, even in the mind of a devout Christian. Given time, those seeds may germinate and eventually help lead to a deconversion. Most Christians, however, will rationalize or ignore any point you make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 They can be reasoned out of it but it's not like just one time bullshit session. It takes weeks, months or even years for reason to finally take hold. However, often it only takes that first small doubt, that first crack in the shell for reason to slip in and destroy the shell of ignorance and stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponymic Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 They can be reasoned out of it but it's not like just one time bullshit session. It takes weeks, months or even years for reason to finally take hold. However, often it only takes that first small doubt, that first crack in the shell for reason to slip in and destroy the shell of ignorance and stupidity. Yeah, that's the whole deal. You can only reason somebody out of it who has some kind of doubt or willingness to be reasoned out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts