garrisonjj Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Thanks for your encouraging posts.I feel better daily having decided that religion is bogus. Yet,my conscience,former Catholic brainwashing has done a good job on me.Even if there is a god,,,,,,,would he send his people to everlasting damniation? When and where did the concept of hell arise? Also,have many of you been strict Catholics,,,,,,gave it up and now feel better????Thank you, gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 In the Bible, Hell exists in three forms; Sheol, Tartarus, Abaddon, and Gehenna. All four are different kinds of places and all have been used interchangeably depending upon the version of the Bible you look at. Sheol - it is the Jewish form of limbo. All souls are sent there. The Septuigent called it Hades in its translation of the Bible. There is no punishment in Sheol, Hades, instead everyone just tends to wander around. It is first mentioned in Genesis 37:35 "And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down to sheol to my son mourning. And his father wept for him." This is where Jacob was going to visit his supposedly dead son Joseph and it obviously means grave. In other places it means "pit" or a shallow depression into which a dead body is placed. Another place it is used is in Deuteronomy 32:22 "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." In the Bible it is used 31 times as the word grave, 31 times as the word hell, and 3 times as the word pit, though the context of pit is used as a grave. Deuteronomy 32 describes this place as the modern concept of hell but at no time does it say anywhere in the Bible that the souls of the dead are sent to Sheol for punishment. Job, my personal favorite book and should be the favorite of all atheists, describes it as a place of rest and that the wicked remain in that state of rest while heaven rewards those who are righteous. I could go into why I think it should be the favorite of all atheists here but I will stick to the topic at hand. If anyone is interesed let me know and I'll post something about it. Psalms uses it metaphorically as not so much a place but as a state of mind, a darkness of the mind without God and that anytime a person can be in Sheol while being alive. Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell (sheol) hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. In context it is used as a parable or prose and not meant to be an actual place of punishment but to describe the grave such as when Jesus said "For the wages of sin is death." Tartarus - There are only a few Bibles that use the word Tartarus. The World English Bible uses it only once in 2 Peter 2:4 "For if God didn`t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;" a place where the angels were sent after their sin, which is only described in the apocryphal books not accepted as God's word by most churches. It is a funny thing how they can blow off books of the Bible and yet still pull their beliefs from them. Tartarus was the Roman incarnation of Hell and like many other things Roman, (i.e. sacred rites of Mithraism, December 25th as a holiday, virgin births, etc.) it was adopted by Christians. Abaddon - can be used as both the "angel of the bottomless pit," synonomous with Apollyon the Greek god Apollo who brings disease and famine, and for the word "destruction" when used to with the word "sheol" in prose. For example, death and destruction are often thrown together in modern times to describe mayhem or anarchy and the like, so to is sheol and abaddon which can mean "death and destruction." And finally, before I put you to sleep, is Gehenna. This, by far, is the reference used to describe the Christian Hell. The word itself is modelled after a specific place on earth, the Valley of Hinmon, which was the local landfill where trash was burned. Mt 5:22 But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whoever shall say to his brother, `Raca,` shall be in danger of the council; and whoever shall say, `You fool,` shall be in danger of the fire of gehenna (hell fire.) It depends upon the Bible you read as to where Gehenna is used since the word is translated into the word "hell" in many versions and is left as "Gehenna" in only a few. Most notabe in the Old Testament is Jeremiah 19:2 "And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee,..." It is here that God describes the punishment of those who had worshipped false idols (Baal) but he doesn't say anything about the punishment occuring after death. So where does the Christian concept come from? The concept of eternal punishment didn't really become popular until the third century BC and mostly, especially the Catholic version of it comes from Virgil's Aenid, a Hellenistic view of the after-life, the apocryphal book of Enoch, and the book "Paradise Lost" by John Milton, no not the guy from The Devil's Advocate, but the 17th century English Poet. It is obvious that Milton used much of the Aenid and the Book of Enoch to derive his fictional account but it was one of the more popular books during the 17th century since it outlined a belief in eternal punishment for the wicked and a layered system of hell. The Catholic belief of Purgatory comes from Milton and is contradicted in the Bible by Luke 16:19-28 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Christians should remember what Jesus said about eternal damnation for sin after death, oh wait, he didn't say anything about it. In fact the words attributed to Jesus about hell can be translated into Gehenna, death, the grave and Sheol. None of which are attributed in the OT, Jesus' Bible, as a place for eternal suffering for the ungodly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Hell is basically something of a revised cut and paste job; many other religions, all older than Xianity, have had an "underworld" where the less-than-acceptable went when they croaked. Usually, these were not places of extreme torment; that to me seems to be a Xian twist. But the Greeks had their Hades, and the Jews their Gehenna (which was really a disposal unit to eradicate evil souls, not torture them forever), so Jesus and Friends just tweaked it a bit further. Also, about Hell's chief occupant, you can find some interesting info here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Hell is basically something of a revised cut and paste job; many other religions, all older than Xianity, have had an "underworld" where the less-than-acceptable went when they croaked. Varokhar and JGJ are exactly right. The concept of Hell, like so much in the Christian religion, is just a warmed-over (pun intended) version of previous pagan myths and motifs. Here is a great little article on the origins of the concept of Hell. I struggled with the fear of Hell when I first escaped religion. It was always in the back of my mind. It was so deeply imbedded in my psyche that it was tough to get rid of. Learning is a wonderful cure for that particular mind virus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Benson Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Actually Hell is real! Quite a few people live in this quaint little hamlet. So I guess when I die I'm going to this little town in Michigan. Hell does not seem so bad after all eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Hell is a religious idea. As with all religious assertions/ideas, it has no demonstrable basis in reality. This glorious list of quotes about hell should help you rid yourself of the fear of it: http://www.religionisbullshit.org/end_fear_hell.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padreko Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I don't think its rational to believe in anything you cannot sense(in some way, shape or form) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Is hell real? well, are the mole people living in the center of the earth real? are keebler cookies really made by little men who live in a tree? Are Chobits real? (sorry, anime reference) I'll give you a hint, or rather, I'll answer the quetions for you...the answer to all three of these is a resounding no, just like hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 well, are the mole people living in the center of the earth real? are keebler cookies really made by little men who live in a tree? Are Chobits real? (sorry, anime reference) I'll give you a hint, or rather, I'll answer the quetions for you...the answer to all three of these is a resounding no, just like hell. You're so full of shit, Kuroikaze!!! The Keebler elves are real! I've seen them. I've felt them. And I've tasted their delicious handiwork! The lies that you speak about them come straight from The Pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 I've felt them. You've felt them? You pervert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 I've felt them. You've felt them? You pervert. They're little, but they're not underage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqua Kitty Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Yet,my conscience,former Catholic brainwashing has done a good job on me.Even if there is a god,,,,,,,would he send his people to everlasting damniation? When and where did the concept of hell arise? Also,have many of you been strict Catholics,,,,,,gave it up and now feel better????Thank you, gary I guess they don't call it "brainwashing" for nothing. Q: Would a loving God send his people to everlasting damnation/hell? A: No I honestly can't believe in the concept of hell, outside of the personal hells that we create for ourselves. Where did the concept of hell arise? I defer that question to the others of this board who have studied this much more so than me. And yes, I now feel much, much better now that I am no longer Catholic/Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Actually Hell is real! Quite a few people live in this quaint little hamlet. So I guess when I die I'm going to this little town in Michigan. Hell does not seem so bad after all eh? But if you're good you can go to Paradise, Michigan! Hell is more fun tho. Anyway, not to get off topic...hi garrisonjj! Welcome! You'll find lots of excellent info and smart brains around here; read, learn and participate! That's the best way to slowly poison the fear of hell - knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrisonjj Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 Yet,my conscience,former Catholic brainwashing has done a good job on me.Even if there is a god,,,,,,,would he send his people to everlasting damniation? When and where did the concept of hell arise? Also,have many of you been strict Catholics,,,,,,gave it up and now feel better????Thank you, gary I guess they don't call it "brainwashing" for nothing. Q: Would a loving God send his people to everlasting damnation/hell? A: No I honestly can't believe in the concept of hell, outside of the personal hells that we create for ourselves. Where did the concept of hell arise? I defer that question to the others of this board who have studied this much more so than me. And yes, I now feel much, much better now that I am no longer Catholic/Christian. May I ask how long you were a Catholic and your age now??? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 I always felt that Hell was a place that was completely created by men in power in order to keep the masses in control. By giving them a face to fear -- like an eternity in Hell -- then they would be less out to act out or break laws. Heaven is pretty much the same thing -- the promise of great zeniths etc. etc. Rainbows. Golden Gates. Peter at the Gate -- Peter the Gatekeeper... Who is the Keymaster? They both go together as a compare and contrast. And both used to manipulate not-so-bright people into the reward/punishment system. Oh well, that's my opinion of it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 It is here that God describes the punishment of those who had worshipped false idols (Baal) but he doesn't say anything about the punishment occuring after death. So where does the Christian concept come from? The concept of eternal punishment didn't really become popular until the third century BC and mostly, especially the Catholic version of it comes from Virgil's Aenid, a Hellenistic view of the after-life, the apocryphal book of Enoch, and the book "Paradise Lost" by John Milton, no not the guy from The Devil's Advocate, but the 17th century English Poet. It is obvious that Milton used much of the Aenid and the Book of Enoch to derive his fictional account but it was one of the more popular books during the 17th century since it outlined a belief in eternal punishment for the wicked and a layered system of hell. The Catholic belief of Purgatory comes from Milton and is contradicted in the Bible by Luke 16:19-28 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Christians should remember what Jesus said about eternal damnation for sin after death, oh wait, he didn't say anything about it. In fact the words attributed to Jesus about hell can be translated into Gehenna, death, the grave and Sheol. None of which are attributed in the OT, Jesus' Bible, as a place for eternal suffering for the ungodly. Thank you! I was going to go on a search today for hell and what Jesus said about it. I didn't think he ever referenced it after physical death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snookums Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Hiya...welcome Hell..... Don't ya find it a bit suss that people ie the pastor (in my case) gets to "doom me to hell" when I had the cheek to disobey his rule. Yeah its a beat up by the men of gawd to use as the stick in the very simple carrot and stick kinda religon that is christianity. I find it reeediculous that both the carrot (heaven) and the stick (hell)...are only apparent after death........so like a great insurance scam there is very little payoff in life. ....err and NO PROOF ever, ever amen! Yep...it gets much better when you drop the 'faith' and start to use the old noggin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Hiya...welcome Hell..... Don't ya find it a bit suss that people ie the pastor (in my case) gets to "doom me to hell" when I had the cheek to disobey his rule. Yeah its a beat up by the men of gawd to use as the stick in the very simple carrot and stick kinda religon that is christianity. I find it reeediculous that both the carrot (heaven) and the stick (hell)...are only apparent after death........so like a great insurance scam there is very little payoff in life. ....err and NO PROOF ever, ever amen! Yep...it gets much better when you drop the 'faith' and start to use the old noggin! And let us not forget that if someone says you are going to hell then by their own scriptures they are too. They are guilty of judging not only you by saying that, but they are judging themselves by saying they are not. Let them not forget that only thier god judges and Satan was guilty of the same sin, of aspiring to be god, just like your acusers who do what god does and judges people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHEMtron Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 like i said in the other thread. if i go to heaven and heaven turns out to be billions of christians having no fun, no sex, no drunkeness, no sense of humor, having prejudices, no pornography, no rock music, all literature, music, and art is "clean" and it's all censorship [like how they are here on earth]... you cant do this you can do that... then that would be hell for me. i dont want to repress myself here just so i can go to heaven and repress myself for eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts