eightman Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 To those of you who are ex born again christians. I see a pattern in the debates between the ex christians and the born agains where the born agains always say to the ex "you were not true christians" or "you are lost but if you are really saved you will return to the fold". Now I find this interesting in that the whole deal about being born again is based on a very SUBJECTIVE MYSTICAL KIND OF EXPERIENCE where the born again goes "broken" to the cross calls out repentance and in some mysterious way the holy spirit enters this person and he becomes another "creation". Usually the person cries or has some ecstatic experience etc. etc. Now obviously this is a real experience for the person who goes through it. It is the "INTERPRETATION" of the experience that is arbitrary. But the born again says that it is the Christ and starts defending the bible etc. If the born again thinks he has seen the Christ then way debate the bible or have any logical debate at all if the exprience is real ? Some testimonies are ex drug addicts or criminals who know nothing of the bible or god but just say "Christ is may savior", and they could care less to defend the bible or even any kind of debate since they say their experience is more than enough. They are at least much more honest. I also can say "I saw god" and had an ecstatic experience when listening to an old santana record ("incident at neshabur"), but the reality of it is just a sequence of intense emotions that have nothing to do with a "god". And it would be ridiculous to debate "the experience" with logic or a book or any reasoning. The experience greatly exceeds any discourse, and so it should be with mystical "religious" experiences. But those who say you were never born again try to deny the subjective experience of those who have gone through the same thing but now do not think there was anything "mysterious" going on but just self delusion or just self suggestion, self emotions etc . You can never really know what subjective experience another goes through and it is on this doubt that the born agains try to convince others of the reality of their experience. It is like saying to a man who was in love with a lady and now is no longer in love with that lady, that "he was never really in love". It is the same kind of denying the subjective experience or assigning it values that no one can talk about or know. Any ideas ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evelyn Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 The xians come on here and say "you can't criticize xianity because you had a taste of a false xiantiy and True Christianity is not like what you experienced, blah blah blah." (after reading this statement through a few times, I realized they criticize our born-again experience, so we can say the same thing to them, "how do you know what I experienced?") This riles up those of us who were "saved" (I lost count of how many times I prayed to accept Jesus as my savior and rededicated my life to him) so we fire back. The atheists here chime in with "religion is bogus" and so it goes. 'Course if it is true that we were not True Christians, then the xians shouldn't really care about us and we shouldn't really care about them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I agree that there is no way to prove or validate a personal experience. Whatever happened is true to them, but they should not berate our "experience" of seeing the "truth" for what it is... psychological manipulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I think this hits on the real reason its hard for christians to accept we every "really" believed. If we had that same experience as them and in the end decided that the experience was bunch of smoke and mirrors, you know, just emotional reactions and such....but at the time we really believed it was real. Then that would call into question the legitamcy of thier own experience, so they want to believe we never had those experiences to begin with/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-COG Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 I think this hits on the real reason its hard for christians to accept we every "really" believed. If we had that same experience as them and in the end decided that the experience was bunch of smoke and mirrors, you know, just emotional reactions and such....but at the time we really believed it was real. Then that would call into question the legitamcy of thier own experience, so they want to believe we never had those experiences to begin with/ Yeah, if it really hits home with them that we used to be devout, honest-to-god, born-again Christians, and we still dropped it all----that would mean that they also could face the possibility of turning from what they now believe. We are dangerous to them (in the Christian's eyes), so it's to their advantage to deny that we were ever truly one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Well, the prior posts have it right, of course. Christians (especially born-agains) have to have a way to reconcile this dilemna. They can't resolve it in their minds, except to say that we weren't true christians. Also, don't forget that a good part of their whole thought process is derived from verses in the bible. This is no exception. Whenever a christian is unsure what to think about something, they seek God's opinion - then just adopt it as their position on any given issue. Simple. Much easier than having to think on your own and reason something out. 1 John 2:19 - "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." There is all the proof any christian needs that we were never truly converted. Doesn't matter what else we say. Whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gliph Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 This is definitely an interesting topic. I was one of the "born again", but never really felt it like everyone else. My brain still liked to think and question and run circles around everything I was supposed to take on faith. For quite a while, I really interpreted it as the holy spirit helping me on my path to the real enlightenment that everyone else felt. After a while, I figured out i was just in an exclusive club where the number of people you could convert was the most important thing, women were inferior, and questioning the faith was the devils work. So maybe the fundies have better imagination than the rest of us. They get a full on dog and pony show that keeps them in the fold... Or maybe they all have the same questions and doubts that most born agains have when they are first born again. But their new found common connection with this group of people is enough to kill off any logic or doubt they may have had. Pile on a few months of biblical garbage, and *POOF* you're a fully functional fundie. Do they still question it? Sure, here and there... The little pieces of doubt still creep in, but we'll just call those sins and put them down with guilt... more biblical garbage, and you're back in business. lather, rinse, and repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 I have found with most xians that come on this site, there is no middle road. You're either an atheist or you're a god-fearin' fundie. There is no degrees of moderation in either direction as far as they are concerned. Scary people they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtdude Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 ....1 John 2:19 - "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." There is all the proof any christian needs that we were never truly converted. Doesn't matter what else we say. Whatever. It's pretty clever of the writer to phrase it that way, eh Mythra? Maintains the demonization of any questioning, any sort of dissent. Maintains the borg. Oh Hey Welcome Eightman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 It suddenly occurred to me why so many still-believers are so adamant about playing the "You were never a Christian" card. In addition to dropping a lot of doctrinal baggage, the apostates have reinterpreted their subjective spiritual experiences as something that came from a non-divine source. This allows for the possibility that the believers' own experiences might not have been "godly," either. And, as long as they continue to play the "Us vs. Them" game, that allows only one other possible source for their experience. And that prospect scares the hell out of them (pun intended.) Rather than confront that possibility, it's easier for them to pretend that these alleged ex-BAC's never had any mystical conversion experience at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 WHOOP! There it is! It suddenly occurred to me why so many still-believers are so adamant about playing the "You were never a Christian" card. In addition to dropping a lot of doctrinal baggage, the apostates have reinterpreted their subjective spiritual experiences as something that came from a non-divine source. This allows for the possibility that the believers' own experiences might not have been "godly," either. And, as long as they continue to play the "Us vs. Them" game, that allows only one other possible source for their experience. And that prospect scares the hell out of them (pun intended.) Rather than confront that possibility, it's easier for them to pretend that these alleged ex-BAC's never had any mystical conversion experience at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 For the sake of discussion, let's pretend that no-one here ever had the subjective religious experience. So what? How is such an experience relevant in any way? If there is no basis for determining whether the experience represents reality or not, then all you have is an experience. Other experiences can at least be validated in terms of different experiences. If you fail to believe you experiences of sight and sound, you will experience pain in response. You can experience pleasure in response if you do pay attention and act accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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