Christian Obsession With Appearances

[greasemonkey]

I was thinking about a joke I heard way back in my baptist days, and started looking at how it relates to many current issues among fundy's of lots of different stripes. My main experience is among Baptists, but I thought I would get some opinions of other denominational experiences.

 

I don't remember much but the gist of the joke:

A baptist and a catholic can run into each other in a liquor store and say hi to each other.

A baptist and a Rabbi can run into each other in a liquor store and say hi to each other.

But two baptists can walk into a liquor store, and neither will ever see each other.

 

Our gay and transgendered members might like to weigh in on this issue. How many of you had people know fully well (or at least strongly suspected) you were gay before you came out of the closet? How many of said people were fine with you as long as you maintained an appearance of being straight? How many disappeared when you figured out that trying to live a lie (maintain an appearance) wasn't good enough?

 

The currently loudest fundy's seem intent on trying to drive gay people back into the closet; they appear to know fully well that putting them "back in the closet" won't change the number of gays out there; they just won't have to see or hear them, and most are largely okay with that. As long as they don't have to see or hear about homosexuality, they can live in thier own little world happily and pretend it doesn't exist. IOW they don't have any reasons to start asking any questions, and often more importantly, thier kids won't ask questions they might actually have to start thinking about to answer.

 

I've heard it so many times it makes me sick: "I don't want my kids to see two guys kissing each other!" The subtext is, "I don't want my kids to ask me about it," or more deeply "I won't have to ask myself questions about it." I heard the same crap when interracial marraige came into Texas ..."I don't want my kids to have to see a n****r and a white woman kissing each other!" I'm just as nauseated by it now as I was twenty years ago.

 

Years ago, one of my aunts was complaining about the local liquor election allowing alcohol to be sold in grocery stores. She was righteously indignant because she didn't want to have to see alcohol when she went grocery shopping. Her husband liked a drink every now and then and there was generally alcohol in their house (always hidden in a cupboard, but still there), but she didn't want to have to see it. It's like she thought if she didn't see it, it magicly no longer existed.

 

When Janet Jackson flashed a tit at half time, 1/3 of the country nearly died of a heart attack over it (at least from listening to the fundy response). Christ! Women have tits, get over it! The problem is, they don't want to have to see it, or at least present the appearance of not wanting to see it. Funny thing that in the week after the super bowl, it broke records in how many people downloaded that little clip. I wonder how many of them were fundy's pulling it down "just to see how bad it was?" It really doesn't have that much difference from the "gay thing." They believe that it might cause "feelings of lust" or something. It intrudes into the little bubble they surround themselves with and call "life" (or "christian life"). In thier hearts, they are just as curious as the next guy; they just can't allow themselves to show it outwardly, and tell themselves they are looking at it because of thier moral outrage about it. At bare minimum, it lets them maintain an appearance of indignation.

 

When I was a senior in high school, I hung out in a country bar in Abilene every now and then. There I was, the baptist preachers kid (underage even!), I ran into church members there on more than one occasion (hell, I danced with my high school math teacher a few times...), and yet I never got ratted on by anyone. They would have had to admitted they were hanging out in bars in the first place!

 

All in the name of maintaining an appearance. Perhaps trying to maintain a fragile house of cards.

 

I've read countless people on here tell about how when thier faith began to fail, all the church friends suddenly began to disappear off the map. I've also noted that most people internalize the actions of the former "friends" (I call that being human actually); the tendency is to think they don't like you anymore because you are no longer part of the "club." But let's think about it; everywhere you look (or remember), a great deal of the fundy experience is in maintaining an appearance. Who didn't have that pinch-faced old lady that showed up every Sunday morning to church just to sit on the front row and look pious?! The same woman who when you asked her how she was doing gave you the litany of every ache & pain she had felt for the last 10 years?! Most of them might have been better off staying at home, but they had an appearance to maintain.

 

I think that the average fundementalist has a huge desire to live in a bubble. When someone loses faith, perhaps they aren't being ostrasized for leaving the "club;" maybe it has more to do with the fact that thier friends are too busy maintaining thier own little bubble of not having to question anything that actually overrides any feelings of thier duties as a friend. If a friend begins to question thier faith, then that might mean they have to start listening to the questions. If they have to listen to the questions, eventually parroting the favorite responses no longer works and they might actually have to start thinking for themselves about said questions. Pretty dangerous territory, especially when you consider that if they started thinking, then thier appearance to thier other church peers might start to slip.

 

... it's all about appearances and maintaining the "bubble!"

 

anybody want to weigh in on this? I'm still working on some details, but thought I would throw it out there and see if anyone else has anything to add or subtract.

[white_raven23]

Total agreement!!!

 

Heck, "appearance" is what the non-christian christians are all about!!!

 

You know these people. They don't go to church, they don't discuss religion, they drink, smoke, drug, and fuck without giving one bit of it any moral consideration whatsoever.

 

But the second one of their friends openly declares they don't believe Jesus was the son o' god.....or that they've been studying Buddhism......

 

Suddenly their non-theist hedonistic friend insta-morphs into "SuperChristianFundy Man" and virtually starts beating their pal over the head with the bible they never read!

 

Urgh.

[Eponymic]

You know these people. They don't go to church, they don't discuss religion, they drink, smoke, drug, and fuck without giving one bit of it any moral consideration whatsoever.

 

It's by far the most common Christian presumption/stereotype that I here. I can't count the number of times I've heard a Christian refer to a person as an Atheist & substance abuser in the same breath.

[RHEMtron]

i agree. i know far too many people who were afraid to tell their family and friends at church about their problems.... all because they were afraid of what they would think of them. even if something was not their fault. sad man...

[greasemonkey]

Total agreement!!!

 

Heck, "appearance" is what the non-christian christians are all about!!!

 

You know these people. They don't go to church, they don't discuss religion, they drink, smoke, drug, and fuck without giving one bit of it any moral consideration whatsoever.

 

But the second one of their friends openly declares they don't believe Jesus was the son o' god.....or that they've been studying Buddhism......

 

Suddenly their non-theist hedonistic friend insta-morphs into "SuperChristianFundy Man" and virtually starts beating their pal over the head with the bible they never read!

 

Urgh.

 

YUP!!!! This is a brilliant extension of what I am talking about! Geez... I've lost count of the number of drinking buddies over the years that suddenly "turn christian" when I mention I'm an atheist...

 

i agree. i know far too many people who were afraid to tell their family and friends at church about their problems.... all because they were afraid of what they would think of them. even if something was not their fault. sad man...

 

...all about maintaining the "bubble." Given the present state of the church, sick when you realize they are right in being afraid! VERY sad...

[jrmarlin]

I think it's really sad that they put so much emphasis into appearances. I think it shows a lack of self confidence and self esteem when people try to put on a front and then when you get to know them, they are nothing like what they had presented in the beginning. I think it's just very sad. I pity people who do that because they have to work very hard to keep that appearance up; however, if they just loved and accepted themselves, they would find other people would naturally love and accept them, too.

 

That's the real draw back at being a sheep. You can't think for yourself, therefore, every other person's opinion about you counts more than what you think of yourself. Just really too sad indeed.

 

I think one of the things about waking up, growing up etc. is the ability to accept and love yourself regardless of other people's opinions. Trying to please everyone or be someone you're not only creates a web of lies that you can get caught in a very big hurry. And once someone finds out you're false, you never can regain their trust again.

 

One of the reasons why I was telling that guy on another thread that he needs to be honest with his wife and tell her, he's no longer a xian. To live a lie is to not live at all.

[greasemonkey]

I think it's really sad that they put so much emphasis into appearances. I think it shows a lack of self confidence and self esteem when people try to put on a front and then when you get to know them, they are nothing like what they had presented in the beginning. I think it's just very sad. I pity people who do that because they have to work very hard to keep that appearance up; however, if they just loved and accepted themselves, they would find other people would naturally love and accept them, too.

 

For those of us who were following Chris de Vidals threads, can we really wonder where the lack of self esteem comes from? When you base your religion on the idea that humanity is no better than a dog turd in the first place, it seems a little logical that low self-esteem would be sort of inherrant behavioral aspect of its followers.

 

I guess this applies to a lot more than religion. Back in the dark ages of the internet (I started when it was just a command prompt; anyone else remember Procomm?), it was almost the norm to exagerate about onesself online. Meeting people from the net was often disappointing back in the early to mid 90's... Wasn't it "Must Love Dogs" that the woman had so many online profiles that she had a hard time keeping them all straight?!

 

I wonder if the "keeping the appearance" factor rises from a couple thousand years of dominately christian (or even religious in general) culture, or if it's just human nature? Most wiccan coven members I've come in contact with seem almost more obsessed with keeping some kind of "non-conformist" appearance than in the religion itself (although most solitary witches I've met have been the opposite). Yet Buhhdist culture places a kind of low value on keeping with appearances in my experience...

 

Does anyone else have any thoughts on it?

[jrmarlin]

I wonder if the "keeping the appearance" factor rises from a couple thousand years of dominately christian (or even religious in general) culture, or if it's just human nature? Most wiccan coven members I've come in contact with seem almost more obsessed with keeping some kind of "non-conformist" appearance than in the religion itself (although most solitary witches I've met have been the opposite). Yet Buhhdist culture places a kind of low value on keeping with appearances in my experience...

 

Does anyone else have any thoughts on it?

To a certain degree, a lot of people regardless of religious beliefs, feel the need to have their egos placated by others, so it is probably a little bit of human nature mixed in. I think religions only validate it and prey on those who are approval seekers.

 

Living in the box is easy. There's not much thought to it. You get up. Have breakfast. Go to work. Come home. Eat dinner. Watch TV. Go to Bed. Then the next day you do the same. The box-living mentality is easy because it doesn't require much of a person other than breathing.

 

It's sad that our society breeds short-cut, box-dweller living and often frowns on people who are innovative and creative -- that is, until they are rich enough to buy them. If a person becomes rich being a non-box-dweller, they are herald as a genius, an innovator, brilliant. But really the only difference between the box-dweller and the non-box-dweller is guts. One has the guts to think and act outside the proverbial box - against societal norms while the other would prefer to remain enscounced in the norm and not rock the boat.

 

This being said, if Jesus really did everything that Xians claim he did, was he not a person who thought outside of the box? Yes. So why do Xians encourage box-dwelling? I have no idea.

 

Being bold. Having guts. All of it takes some very concentrated, hard work. And let's face it, on the whole, our societal norm is to be lazy. Procrastinate. Big supporters of the "Let someone else deal with it, handle it and stand up for it" mantra.

[greasemonkey]

To a certain degree, a lot of people regardless of religious beliefs, feel the need to have their egos placated by others, so it is probably a little bit of human nature mixed in. I think religions only validate it and prey on those who are approval seekers.

<snip>

Being bold. Having guts. All of it takes some very concentrated, hard work. And let's face it, on the whole, our societal norm is to be lazy. Procrastinate. Big supporters of the "Let someone else deal with it, handle it and stand up for it" mantra.

 

great insights! I've looked a little bit about the western "individualist" society vs the eastern "collectivist" societal approach. I need to get Huidan's opinions on Chinese culture maybe ...I believe many japanese put a little bit of effort into "appearance," but I think the thought process may be a little different than the western mindset.

 

interesting stuff... too many books, too little time. *sigh*

[NorthenSun]

 

Living in the box is easy.

 

jrmarlin,

 

The creators of The Matrix were really outside the box when they came up with that film. Too bad they crawled back in by the time of Matrix Revolutions. Maybe big money makes one a bit too cautious?

 

Hope they stepped out a little bit with V for Vendetta.

[jrmarlin]

 

Living in the box is easy.

 

jrmarlin,

 

The creators of The Matrix were really outside the box when they came up with that film. Too bad they crawled back in by the time of Matrix Revolutions. Maybe big money makes one a bit too cautious?

 

Hope they stepped out a little bit with V for Vendetta.

FINALLY SOMEONE NOTICED.

 

Yes, you are absolutely correct. That is why I have no quotes from the last....

 

I actually think they had themselves half in the box for the Reloaded as well. The first movie. BRILLIANT without a doubt. Obviously, I loved it!

 

Thank you for making note of it!

 

\

great insights! I've looked a little bit about the western "individualist" society vs the eastern "collectivist" societal approach. I need to get Huidan's opinions on Chinese culture maybe ...I believe many japanese put a little bit of effort into "appearance," but I think the thought process may be a little different than the western mindset.

 

interesting stuff... too many books, too little time. *sigh*

Thanks. These are things I have thought for a very long time. I just am glad to find a place where a lot of out of the box people hang out! It's refreshing!

 

I really love the conversations I have with you people!

[Amethyst]

I think that the average fundementalist has a huge desire to live in a bubble. When someone loses faith, perhaps they aren't being ostrasized for leaving the "club;" maybe it has more to do with the fact that thier friends are too busy maintaining thier own little bubble of not having to question anything that actually overrides any feelings of thier duties as a friend. If a friend begins to question thier faith, then that might mean they have to start listening to the questions. If they have to listen to the questions, eventually parroting the favorite responses no longer works and they might actually have to start thinking for themselves about said questions. Pretty dangerous territory, especially when you consider that if they started thinking, then thier appearance to thier other church peers might start to slip.

 

Not just the fundamentalist, but even the liberal Christian as well. I used to be like that too.

 

For those of us who were following Chris de Vidals threads, can we really wonder where the lack of self esteem comes from? When you base your religion on the idea that humanity is no better than a dog turd in the first place, it seems a little logical that low self-esteem would be sort of inherrant behavioral aspect of its followers.

 

Good point. I know that a large part of my own self-esteem problems came from religion. When you're brought up to believe that you're not worthy of someone's love, that you're not worthy of acceptance, that you deserve to be tortured forever and ever and ever, all it leads to is self-hate.

 

That plays a large part in the appearance thing, IMHO. People don't have the confidence to be themselves, so they go along with what everyone else is doing. They don't to admit that they're even remotely different from the rest of the clones because doing so might lead them to think that people who are different are worthy of love. But you just can't have that in Christianity, or else nobody would believe the same thing (or at least pretend to).

 

What fragile things appearances really are, no more than crystal illusions to be shattered eventually.

[Asuryan]

anybody want to weigh in on this? I'm still working on some details, but thought I would throw it out there and see if anyone else has anything to add or subtract.

 

 

 

 

Chiming in with my 2 eurocents...

 

 

 

As usual, the prospective from Italy.

 

 

 

This christian obsession with appearance seems to be even stronger with catholicism here. No matter what you really think, you "must" respect catholic traditions here, or suffer social ostracism and shunning.

 

Some examples:

 

My mother wanted to bribe me to persuade me to follow a priest's lessons about catholicism at our public school, even if she knew that I wasn't a believer at that time.

 

Homosexuals, as long as they are in their closet and absolutely don't show any hugging, kissing or sexualized behaviour, are *barely* tolerated, but as soon as they hold hands with their significant other, they'll meet disgusted glances: as most heterosexual people here say, "they can do everything they want, AS LONG as they do that away from my eyes. If they do something like kissing in a public place, they are just deliberately provoking people to hate them. They're asking to be hated and discriminated, since they're imposing their behavior on us."

 

There are crosses in public places here, hospitals, schools, tribunals. Not only there's no way those crosses will be removed, but if you politely ask for them to be removed, you'll have all of your city (the whole country if you are a famous person) calling you an intolerant SOB, someone that just craves others' attention, and that if you don't like the cross there you should just shut up and not tell anyone, because if you do tell someone that you don't want the cross up there, you are silenced. These are things that must not be said!

 

If you are an atheist, fine, just don't talk about it with a catholic. Ever. You'll have even the most heretic catholic (remember, the standard catholic here believes that it is OK to use condoms, or have premarital sex. So they *can* choose and ignore something of what the pope is saying... if they want to and if they have direct benefits from ignoring that...) telling you to shut up, that "by talking about your atheism or the reason of it, you are trying to destroy the faith of religious people, you should be ashamed of you".

 

 

 

I really want to go somewhere else.

[Lycorth]

For those of us who were following Chris de Vidals threads, can we really wonder where the lack of self esteem comes from? When you base your religion on the idea that humanity is no better than a dog turd in the first place, it seems a little logical that low self-esteem would be sort of inherrant behavioral aspect of its followers.

 

Good point. I know that a large part of my own self-esteem problems came from religion. When you're brought up to believe that you're not worthy of someone's love, that you're not worthy of acceptance, that you deserve to be tortured forever and ever and ever, all it leads to is self-hate.

 

That is so very true. Many of the Xians I grew up with or came to know were all about appearances. The worst thing you could do was to appear to be opposed to Xianity. No matter how slack you were in practicing the religion, the moment you appeared to not believe in it at all, you got flack from everyone else. Even when I was in (Catholic) high school; the moment I seemed to be a headbanging, devil-worshipping skinhead, I was immediately ostracized and almost constantly name-called and such. All over the world, you hear of much the same - the so-called "love of Jesus™" is nothing more than something to be taken, not given out. The Golden Rule is too hard for most Xians to live up to, but easy enough to preach from their self-righteous pulpits.

 

Self-esteem problems stem a great deal from Xianity, I've noticed. Especially if you make some bad mistakes ini your life and fall back on Xianity for spiritual comfort, hoo boy, you really stick your own foot in the trap. A friend of mine got married and after the marriage turned ugly and she finally got out of it, she fell back on Xianity for comfort, and her mother did the same when her marriage went south. Both of them became serious fundies, and both of them had great self-esteem problems. Especially my friend; she had always had self-image issues since puberty, but the poor girl really began to hate herself when she saw how her life was so eeevil and sinful according to Xianity. Even though she believed in Jesus™ and accepted him, she still felt like crap. She's still a fundy, but is learning to ignore that more often - but it always comes back. Only reason-based advice or counseling seems to help her snap out of ugly spells when they do come on.

 

My ex was also the same. She went on her own, got involved with a jerk, got hurt, then got out of it and fell back on Xianity. She never got over her wounds from the past, no matter how others urged her to go to counseling, and even refused counselors because they weren't Xian and would give her practical, wordly advice, not religious advice. That eventually got between her and I, and better for it, but still, she's yet another example of how falling back on Xianity and basing your worldview seriously on it can lead almost always to personal ruin. You believe that you're a steaming dog turd without Jesus™ and that you need regular Jesus™ injections into your soul or else you'll end up worse than before. It's like a narcotic.

 

And in all their cases, they were wound up with appearances. You had to look a certian way, and almost always had to "reflect Jesus™" somehow with your style of dress or how obviously Xian you were to everyone else. I give it to my friend (who is also my ex's sister) - she is tolerant and accepting of non-Xians, and will not refuse a friend. She does really give out a good deal of that "love" that you'd think a Xian ought always to do, but her sister is snide and intolerant of anything that is not like her. And sadly, most Xians are just like that - on their "worthless" knees, begging for their god's "unconditional love" but sneering down their noses at others whose only crime is being fundamentally different from themselves.

[jrmarlin]

It's all about social engineering. Xians are masters of social engineering. They use every extortion in the book in order to manipulate their slaves. The elders in the church love the "freeze out" where the person is promptly removed from every "party network" as this shows the offender they have sinned in the eyes of the elders and all their little friends went bye-bye.

 

This can only be done --- this social engineering -- if the person has little to no self esteem, pride or self-respect. As most people would state, "Fuck this shit and fuck you..." But the need-to-pleasers are highly different. They have a need - burning in their stomachs -- to please because without other people's validations they feel like nothing.

[All Gods Fail]

"by talking about your atheism or the reason of it, you are trying to destroy the faith of religious people, you should be ashamed of you".

 

 

 

I really want to go somewhere else.

 

Poor Asuryan - what a tough place to be a non-believer! You get the Atheist Purple Heart.

 

 

P.S.: Tell me if you find a place that ignores religion. I'll move there, too.

[Guest GodzPoet]

I have to agree with much of what has been said about the way many churches hold appearance so high in importance. I go to a church that doesn't care about what someone looks like, what their problems are, or who their crowd is. I can tell you from experience that there are churches that when you walk in... they want you to say hello, then sit down, shut up and be ready to leave when the preacher says Amen... then they shoo you out the door for good measure. That kind of behavior really saddens me because there are so many people out there that go to church looking for REAL people.

 

Now the people in the church I go to for the most part are genuine down-to-earth people, but there are some that are just down right snobbish (there are always a few sour grapes in every cluster). I know several people there that have problems that many churches (or your average fundamentalist) would take an issue with. One of my good friends there smoked pot for a while after she got saved... then one day felt that God wanted her to stop, so she did and that was it and hasn't touched it since. My church even holds a special event on the church's anniversary every year for bikers... now how many churches do you know would do something to bless others on their "special date" other than a party for themselves.

 

As for my self-esteem problem, it didn't start as a result of going to church. It started in part to being molested as a young girl by my grandfather who was a retired baptist minister and from hearing from my dad all the time that anything I did wasn't good enough, whether in school or out. I do not attend a baptist church anymore, although my best friends attend a Free-Will Baptist church. The church I attend now is charismatic and I am a member of the Free-Methodist Church. When I started going to this church, I thought the same way that many people with low self-esteem do... that I had to please everyone around me. It took time and LOTS of mentoring from my worship & cell group pastors (a husband and wife team) to get me past that.

 

 

I cannot tell you of the many, many times that I stopped going to church or expressed doubts and questioned my faith in the 6 years that I have been going to my current church. But I tell you that never once in all that time have they ever shut me out or tried to cut me off. On the contrary, they have always stopped by to check on me and my family, to see if we needed anything or how we were doing. They have taken us to the ER or the doctors, they bought us cookware when we first moved here as ours got lost or misplaced in the move. They even bought gifts for our daughter for Christmas the first year we were here because they knew we weren't working. The Pastor even went as far as giving me and my husband the money to go out and have a date to spend some time together when we were having some marital problems. They have always tried their utmost to help us out at every turn. I don't know of many churches that would do that especially for people that had just started attending and most of those things that I listed happened in the first 6 months to a year of going there.

 

I know that many churches and "christians" act like people are worthless unless you are "saved" and the truth of the matter is that it's not true. Everyone matters, everyone has worth and is important. As far as God throwing people in hell is concerned... I am not sure myself exactly what hell will be like. Personally I am more inclined to believe that hell is more an absence from God than the whole tortured in flames bit. I mean I don't expect God to make people, who don't believe in Him, stay there to live with Him forever... that'd rattle everyone's nerves not to mention that it would be really stupid. But that is just my view and I am not gonna get anymore into the issue of Hell than that.

 

Anyway... that was just my thoughts. And sorry if I rambled on too much there.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hi, GodzPoet. Nice to see you. This is not a big deal, but your font is kind of hard to read. Any chance of using the default font?

 

cheers

[jrmarlin]

I have to agree with much of what has been said about the way many churches hold appearance so high in importance. I go to a church that doesn't care about what someone looks like, what their problems are, or who their crowd is.

Ah... can't you use a more readable font? This makes everyone's head hurt. Yeeks!

[greasemonkey]

hi Godzpoet!

 

Thanks for weighing in (christians are always welcome to counterpoint)!

 

I'm glad you and the hubs found a "good" church. I think you would be hard up to find anyone here that isn't at least appreciative of the charitable good that churches do all over the country. I can come up with tons of examples (and churches) like you described in yours; anyone here can come up with tons of bad examples as well. There are always two sides to every coin.

 

My dad was always a sucker for hard luck cases (not to sound demeaning to your own position; I'm in a similar place personally). I remember one year at a church he pastored in s. Louisiana (actually, Katrina recently wiped the town out...), he took in a hard luck couple. Apparently they were good christian folks just looking to move to a bigger city for work. Pops gave them a job & a room at his house (the parsonage), and the church helped the family out in every way imaginable. After a couple of months, they even sold the couple a car for dirt (their car trashing out was what stranded them there in the first place). I met the guy once while visiting (he was there 4 or 5 months), and he seemed like a nice enough sort. Obviously he just wasn't too sharp (the words "ungrateful bastard" comes to mind) as events shortly proved.

 

My mother worked at a fishing outfit as bookkeeper, and every Saturday she tended to bring home really large amounts of money (usually in the 100's of K's range) to take to the bank Monday morning. It was always in a secure bank bag with a lock on it. I guess the couple just couldn't resist the temptation; when my mom & dad went out for dinner one weekend, they came home to find the couple cleared out & the bank bag missing.

 

I guess it was a lesson in karma for all parties. It happened to be almost the lowest amount of money Mom had ever brought home ...about $1500 or thereabouts. I honestly don't recall that they ever actually caught the people; they probably did ...not like the amount they stole was enough to skip country or anything, plus they had the liscense number of the car & the guys social security number. Jeez, but how low do you have to sink to steal the preacher's wifes livelihood?!

 

Pops doesn't really have any regrets about the whole thing (he says he'd do it again); but the moral of the whole story in my book was that those "appearances" don't really mean crap. I see those bumper stickers all the time that say "I'm not perfect ...just forgiven" and laugh.

 

I bet every single person here can come up with numerous exmples of people trying to exercise some kind of "moral superiority" over us heathens (they do it all the time on this group). The concept of "hell" seems laughable to me after 20 years of study away from christianity; it didn't even exist in the form we know it now until the New Testament! Fact is, out of 30,000 some-odd denominations of christianity, I could easily find at least a thousand that say all the others are going to hell. I just can't drum up too much respect for the organization as a whole when they can't get their own shit together. For the bible being the inerrant word of god, it sure does seem to be pretty flexible.

 

Churches are full of some wonderful loving people ...they are also full of some of the most despicable excuses for "humanity" to ever grace the planet. All of the emphasis on "keeping appearances" hurts the entire body as a whole. Some of us left because we couldn't stand the illogic of the doctrine, some because we couldn't stand the people. It's a little bit different for everyone here. But whenever somebody say you have to judge the religion by the teachings, not the followers, I pretty much look at them like they are out of their mind.

 

The christian comedian Mike Warnke bilked people out of millions of dollars for a non-existent charity for satanic ritual abuse survivors, as well as helping to create a national hysteria over a non-existent threat. To compund his crimes, his target audience was children. He was thoroughly and utterly exposed as a fraud by the christian publication Cornerstone. Not only has he never been charged with a crime despite overwhelming evidence, he is still out there preaching the same crap; Cornerstone was publicly denounced for thier expose by "Mr. Morality" himself, Jerry Fallwell, by calling them christians who "shoot thier own wounded." Many churches still use his books as "factual" books to keep the hysteria alive even though they were exposed as utterly fraudulent. Apparently it is more important that he is "saving souls" than the fact he is a liar, a thief and a fraud who deserves an extremely long prison term.

 

As long as Warnke & others "keeps the appearance," then apparently his actions are okay. Nobody made two peeps about Fred Phelps as long as he only confined his hate-rallies to gay funerals; church opinion only shifted dramatically once he started including soldiers funerals as well. The church does some great things, but they need to do a lot of work in their own backyard.

[Guest GodzPoet]

Sorry about the font. I will skip it from now on.

 

I agree with many of the things you said greasemonkey. The church does need to begin with themselves. Our pastor reminds us frequently that judgement must begin first in the house of God. In other words... we need to get ourselves straigthened out first before we can worry about those around us. Also, our church is always trying to find ways to bring other churches in the area together to do things for our community. There is so much division in the church (in general) that it amazes me when I hear of denominations working together at all. And it should be the other way around... it should be a surprise when they aren't working together.