JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 The ideas of Jesus were not new in his time. Supposedly Jesus studied in the temples at Jerusalem...Lu 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And would have heard the popular teachings of a man called Hillel the Elder. Hillel was a woodcutter who was born in the first century BC. He was rather poor and couldn't pay the tithe to study the Hebrew Bible (Torah) in the temple. (Eventually that tithe was abolished due to Hillel.) He was probably the most influential Rabbi of his time and is still honored today by the Jews. He spent most of his adult life teaching and arguing with his main opponent Shammai over differences of scriptural interpretation. At one time he was the leader of the Sanhedrin. Jesus would have been a child at the height of Hillel's popularity and his popularity among the Jewish scholars at that time cannot be understated. Here are some quotes from Hillel (and their parallels in the New Testament )that would have influenced the things Jesus would have learned at that time and can be seen in the Gospels as being attributed to Jesus. Hillel - "What is hateful to thee, do not unto thy fellow man: this is the whole Law; the rest is mere commentary" Hillel - "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it." Jesus - Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it *, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Jesus - Mr 12:31 And the second is like, namely this *, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Jesus - Lu 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Hillel - "Judge not thy neighbor till thou art in his place" Jesus - "Judge not, that ye be not judged" and "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone. Paul was a student of Hillel's grandson, Gamaliel, and his influence can be seen in much of Paul's letters. The concept of Hillel and the teachings of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes influencing Jesus message is not new but I thought I would bring it up for comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 I was only sort-of aware of this Hillel character, and can see where Jesus could've been influenced by him. Of course, the writers of the Babble seem to have left out whether or not this actually happened, nor are there any other sources to check. But, it sure seems reasonable, and it could well have been that Jesus learned the Golden Rule from Hillel. The Golden Rule is also not a new idea, and many other religions have taught it. Hillel was stretching the Torah to claim it taught the Golden Rule above all, since Yahweh clearly encouraged his fan club to do unto neighboring tribes that which they definitely would've have wanted done unto them, but such is the contradictory nature of the first half of the Xian Babble. I'm sure this story has some credibility, though, and it does cast doubts on the Xian claim that Jesus was really Gawd also; after all, why would Gawd need a teacher? Another case of history and Xian myth and logic just not agreeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-COG Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 A long time ago I read a book by a Jewish rabbi (sorry, can't remember the name) that said most of the teachings of Jesus were not unique to him. I would think that Jesus received his education at the temple like other boys did; why do Christians assume he came up with everything? Oh yeah, right, he was God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lapdog Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Jesus was also a student of John the Baptist, as were his followers. John the Baptist was the founder of Christianity, and a lot of what the apostles taught came from John, not Jesus. Mind you, most of the words ascribed to Jesus in the Bible were probably not his either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Open_Minded Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 The ideas of Jesus were not new in his time. Supposedly Jesus studied in the temples at Jerusalem...Lu 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And would have heard the popular teachings of a man called Hillel the Elder. Hillel was a woodcutter who was born in the first century BC. He was rather poor and couldn't pay the tithe to study the Hebrew Bible (Torah) in the temple. (Eventually that tithe was abolished due to Hillel.) He was probably the most influential Rabbi of his time and is still honored today by the Jews. He spent most of his adult life teaching and arguing with his main opponent Shammai over differences of scriptural interpretation. At one time he was the leader of the Sanhedrin. Jesus would have been a child at the height of Hillel's popularity and his popularity among the Jewish scholars at that time cannot be understated. Here are some quotes from Hillel (and their parallels in the New Testament )that would have influenced the things Jesus would have learned at that time and can be seen in the Gospels as being attributed to Jesus. Hillel - "What is hateful to thee, do not unto thy fellow man: this is the whole Law; the rest is mere commentary" Hillel - "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it." Jesus - Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it *, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Jesus - Mr 12:31 And the second is like, namely this *, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Jesus - Lu 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Hillel - "Judge not thy neighbor till thou art in his place" Jesus - "Judge not, that ye be not judged" and "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone. Paul was a student of Hillel's grandson, Gamaliel, and his influence can be seen in much of Paul's letters. The concept of Hillel and the teachings of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes influencing Jesus message is not new but I thought I would bring it up for comment. JGJ - can you provide resources - book titles, links, etc.. ? This would be an interesting topic of discussion in our meditation group. Thanks - Open_Minded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artur Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasemonkey Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Bart Ehrman, in his book, "The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings" has a small section quoting several prior incarnations of the Golden Rule. Hillel's is mentioned as the closest to Jesus' time but the others include- - The apocryphal book of Tobit, "And what you hate, do not do to anyone". - Herodotus (5th century B.C.E.), "I will not myself do that which I consider to be blameworthy in my neighbor". - Isocrates (4th century B.C.E.), "You should be such in your dealings with others as you expect me to be in my dealings with you". - Confucious (6th century B.C.E.), "Do not do to others what you would not want others to do to you". It wasn't exactly glaringly original in the first century C.E. You forgot one: "We should behave to our friends as we would wish our friends to behave to us." -Aristotle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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