whitehorse Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Could the universe be made from fluid. I have this thought that whatever the universe was in it's last (Or primary state) was a fluid based material. In it it had everything to generate our known universe, it just needed a kick start from an external source. However I can't picture the outside of this fluidly space. But a charge took place and BOOM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Interesting. I, myself, have been having some pantheistic leanings myself in seeing the actual universe as divine of some kind. Like, I have no science to back this up right now, it's just "my own explanations of how our world got here" like the Sumerians used to do. I think it's interesting that we all age very similarly without some visible "hand guiding our growth," or when you plant a seed, it grows its own life path with nothing visible that seems to prompt it....I wonder if our universe just generated itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Could the universe be made from fluid. I have this thought that whatever the universe was in it's last (Or primary state) was a fluid based material. In it it had everything to generate our known universe, it just needed a kick start from an external source. However I can't picture the outside of this fluidly space. But a charge took place and BOOM! You may wish to study the history of the "aether", which was a hypothesis dating back to Plato and put forth, in one version or another, until it fell away in the early 20th Century. It lines up with your "fluid" thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitehorse Posted June 1, 2017 Author Share Posted June 1, 2017 You may wish to study the history of the "aether", which was a hypothesis dating back to Plato and put forth, in one version or another, until it fell away in the early 20th Century. It lines up with your "fluid" thought. If I can get around to it I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitehorse Posted June 1, 2017 Author Share Posted June 1, 2017 Interesting. I, myself, have been having some pantheistic leanings myself in seeing the actual universe as divine of some kind. Like, I have no science to back this up right now, it's just "my own explanations of how our world got here" like the Sumerians used to do. I think it's interesting that we all age very similarly without some visible "hand guiding our growth," or when you plant a seed, it grows its own life path with nothing visible that seems to prompt it....I wonder if our universe just generated itself. The holo universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Like, I have no science to back this up right now, it's just "my own explanations of how our world got here" like the Sumerians used to do. I think it's interesting that we all age very similarly without some visible "hand guiding our growth," or when you plant a seed, it grows its own life path with nothing visible that seems to prompt it....I wonder if our universe just generated itself. Yours is a supernatural belief. Now, I'm a Christian, so I believe in a supernatural reality so believing in the supernatural is reasonable and valid in my opinion. That said, why did you choose to believe in that particular supernatural reality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Yours is a supernatural belief. Now, I'm a Christian, so I believe in a supernatural reality so believing in the supernatural is reasonable and valid in my opinion. That said, why did you choose to believe in that particular supernatural reality? I didn't, nor have I embraced that belief. It's just wondering. I'm agnostic, not atheist, I haven't ruled out an intelligent design. I just don't believe in bible god nor do I have any reason to believe that any other being that might have set things in motion is good, all-knowing, or cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 I didn't, nor have I embraced that belief. It's just wondering. I'm agnostic, not atheist, I haven't ruled out an intelligent design. I just don't believe in bible god nor do I have any reason to believe that any other being that might have set things in motion is good, all-knowing, or cares. I see. If a being put the universe in motion then you agree this being must have extraordinary characteristics, like omnipotence, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Extraordinary characteristics, possibly, omnipotence is not necessary. For all I know aliens have made the universe their little experiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 If a being put the universe in motion then you agree this being must have extraordinary characteristics, like omnipotence, no? Not necessarily. It would only need the ability to manipulate matter/energy to the extent required to "seed" a universe. This may not actually require a lot of energy. An analogy: If you're on the 40th floor of a skyscraper and drop something out the window -- say, a fist-sized ball bearing -- and it makes a 4-foot-deep hole in a flowerbed below, your energy input (opening a window and letting go of a ball bearing) is nowhere near the energy you would need to punch a 4-foot hole in the flowerbed with your fist. Initial conditions (in this case the presence of gravity, which would cause the sphere to accelerate to high downward velocity after its release) can produce disproportionately large outputs from a small input. Therefore, without knowing the conditions in effect at the time of "putting the universe in motion," it is simply not reasonable to assume that any hypothetical creator/mover possesses omnipotence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Extraordinary characteristics, possibly, omnipotence is not necessary. For all I know aliens have made the universe their little experiment. You require a universe to have aliens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Not necessarily. It would only need the ability to manipulate matter/energy to the extent required to "seed" a universe. This may not actually require a lot of energy. An analogy: If you're on the 40th floor of a skyscraper and drop something out the window -- say, a fist-sized ball bearing -- and it makes a 4-foot-deep hole in a flowerbed below, your energy input (opening a window and letting go of a ball bearing) is nowhere near the energy you would need to punch a 4-foot hole in the flowerbed with your fist. Initial conditions (in this case the presence of gravity, which would cause the sphere to accelerate to high downward velocity after its release) can produce disproportionately large outputs from a small input. Therefore, without knowing the conditions in effect at the time of "putting the universe in motion," it is simply not reasonable to assume that any hypothetical creator/mover possesses omnipotence. You require a universe to have matter and energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 I see. If a being put the universe in motion then you agree this being must have extraordinary characteristics, like omnipotence, no? Let's assume that this premise is true, then yes, sure. In my mind however, the God of the Bible DOES NOT exhibit traits of omnipotence. To me he mostly appears as the provincial and vengeful tribal deity that he actually was originally conceived as, with many fallible human traits to boot. Figures, since he's a human construct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Let's assume that this premise is true, then yes, sure. In my mind however, the God of the Bible DOES NOT exhibit traits of omnipotence. To me he mostly appears as the provincial and vengeful tribal deity that he actually was originally conceived as, with many fallible human traits to boot. Figures, since he's a human construct. The God of the Bible claims to have created the Universe so based on your assumption this would make Him omnipotent. Why do you say the God of the Bible does not demonstrate omnipotence? Just because you think He has other traits does not mean He can not also be omnipotent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 You require a universe to have matter and energy. Astreja, the net energy budget for the universe is zero. Alan Guth (one of the co-formulators of Inflationary theory) https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alan_Guth "It is said that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. But the universe is the ultimate free lunch." "We should not act like we know that the universe began with the Big Bang... we'll see that there are strong suggestions that the Big Bang was perhaps not really the beginning of existence, but really just the beginning of our local universe, often called a pocket universe." And on page 247 of his book, The Inflationary Universe : The Quest for a New Theory of Cosmic Origins, he goes on to say... "In the cosmic shopping mall, an infinity of pocket universes can be purchased for the price of one." Since the price of one universe is nothing (see above) then the price of an infinity of universes is... nothing. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 How does Guth say the ensemble of pocket universes were created? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 How does Guth say the ensemble of pocket universes were created? He doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 5, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted June 5, 2017 I see. If a being put the universe in motion then you agree this being must have extraordinary characteristics, like omnipotence, no? Could an omnipotent being not exist, if it chose not to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 He doesn't. Then the fundamental problem remains and your words do nothing to add to the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Could an omnipotent being not exist, if it chose not to? Why is that relevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 5, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted June 5, 2017 Why is that relevant? Why is your hypothetical omnipotent being relevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Then the fundamental problem remains and your words do nothing to add to the solution. What fundamental problem would that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 What fundamental problem would that be? Something from nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Something from nothing. Why is that a problem for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Something from nothing. Entire universes cost nothing. Entire ensembles of universes cost nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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