dibby Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 Christian evangelicals always claim (especially when 'witnessing') that god gave us free will. And usually mention that we are , 'all free to choose'. That is until you use your god given freedom to choose something other than what they preach, then the coercion starts. For instance, if you were truly free, they would present their beliefs to you......you would decide and that would be the end of the matter. However if you do say NO then the "after death threats" follow, hell etc. So what I,m saying is what is the freedom worth if it is under duress? If someone pulls a gun on me in the street and says, 'You have a choice: You can give me your money, or not, but if you don,t I'll blow you away" that is not free choice. You might make a choice, but it isn,t free. Does not the bible god say the same thing, in another way? Believe or you will be eternally damned. Therefore, in fundamentalist christianity there is NO free will, or freedom of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 Therefore, in fundamentalist christianity there is NO free will, or freedom of choice. You bet your life it's not free. It costs about 10% of your gross income every month. But then again, nothing in this world is truly free. Is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 The Xian teaching of "Free will" is a unbabblical fabrication designed to make an allowance for human nature and explain part of why we need Xianity in the first place. It highlights some of the illogicalities of Xianity, in this case the illogicality of their god creating people who are "imperfect" and able to choose "imperfect" things. If their god was so wound up about righteousness, why would it make people who could choose to be evil? It also highlights Xianity's cruelty, namely that it posits a god who would make people with this "free will" and then get mad at them for using it, when choices are made that go against the will of their god. Well, their god knew humans would use their free will to make choices that were against its own desires, so for it to get mad because of how me made humanity to work is just plain stupid. Indeed, the only miracle of Xianity is how people ever swallowed this crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 The Xian teaching of "Free will" is a unbabblical fabrication designed to make an allowance for human nature and explain part of why we need Xianity in the first place. It highlights some of the illogicalities of Xianity, in this case the illogicality of their god creating people who are "imperfect" and able to choose "imperfect" things. If their god was so wound up about righteousness, why would it make people who could choose to be evil? It also highlights Xianity's cruelty, namely that it posits a god who would make people with this "free will" and then get mad at them for using it, when choices are made that go against the will of their god. Well, their god knew humans would use their free will to make choices that were against its own desires, so for it to get mad because of how me made humanity to work is just plain stupid. Indeed, the only miracle of Xianity is how people ever swallowed this crap. What doesn't make sense at all, and no christian I have ever asked this can answer it, is if God supposedly made everyone.... and everything that God makes is perfect. Then wouldn't that make us all perfect already --- sinless. And, if we are all made of God, then wouldn't that make us God, too? Now, I understand that is pretty abstract for some, but think about what Xians say about God being perfect. God being the supreme. We're all made in the "likeness of" God, therefore, that would make us God, too. Even though this goes within their biblical content -- aside from the contradictions like the sinnin' and whorin' stuff -- xians are at a loss because in reality what they say and what they're told to think are two entirely different thought patterns. I tell them if they can grasp this concept then they can understand why Hitler would be in Heaven. Hitler had a purpose. And so called pure goodness cannot be without pure evil; therefore, they both serve a purpose to show compare and contrast. Hitler was doing the job of God, if you really think about his beliefs -- and his purpose to show evil. He did a good job. And if all you have to do is ask for forgiveness, which I am sure he probably did, then you are exonerated of all sin and will go to heaven. So therefore, this being said, Hitler is in heaven. Xians don't like that statement as they say, "But he killed" and I said, "But he did it for God." And their rebuff is, "Well, that's different than the rest." Ah..... They also get very testy when I mention the fact that their bible was created by men who left a bunch of chapters out and used the wording specifically to make them fear doing anything out-of-the-box to keep them in line with the King of the country. aka King James. I found when questioned and discussed, Xians get very defensive about these two ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Indeed - they get very testy because they're getting called out on the fundamental flaws in their logic, the flaws that any human being using their brain can grasp and comprehend. When you back a Xian into a corner using simple human reasoning which they themselves possess, their faith collides with their brains and they can't deal with it. The thought that the opposition indeed has a point and that their religion could be in error is very upsetting to them, the poor things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 I'm not going to read this thread because I've read thousands of posts just like it. Yeah, Christian's say that it's a choice that YOU must make. Their Bible tells them that God must put the desire in someones "heart" for them to be saved. Then, somewhere else it says that God has nothing to do with unbelievers. If he has nothing to do with unbelievers, then he can't exactly put that desire in them, now can he? It's all a big, fucked up mess either way you look at it. Shit, I'm sure there's christians out there that will argue against a person who claims that they made a choice to come to their God. I can just hear it now! "No you didn't! God called you - end of story! It had nothing to do with a choice that you made. It was all God's plan! Give Him the Glory, not yourself!" Fuck'em... They're all a bunch of nut-jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Ugh. After reading the travesty "argument" put forth by Subby in the other thread regarding free-will.........I want to claw my eyeballs out. I love how pissy they get when you point out how you just can't have it both ways.....unless they are Subby, who seems someow convinced that completely contradictory concepts are somehow BOTH true. He watched his mom get eaten alive by irate squirrels. You know it's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 the poor things. Are you okay tonight? You seem to be in a very "I love everybody" Humanitarian mood tonight. Did you run over a fundie coming home from church or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 the poor things. Are you okay tonight? You seem to be in a very "I love everybody" Humanitarian mood tonight. Did you run over a fundie coming home from church or something? I drive a '95 Pontiac Grand Prix. Pretty aerodynamic, so a fundy would sort of bounce up onto my hood and roll off to the side if I hit one, at least on paper. Thanks again for the concern, but you worry too much - I was just being sarcastic, however mildly. Boy, I sure throw you for some loops, don't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 What doesn't make sense at all, and no christian I have ever asked this can answer it, is if God supposedly made everyone.... and everything that God makes is perfect. Then wouldn't that make us all perfect already --- sinless. And, if we are all made of God, then wouldn't that make us God, too? Now, I understand that is pretty abstract for some, but think about what Xians say about God being perfect. God being the supreme. We're all made in the "likeness of" God, therefore, that would make us God, too. Well, I'd say sort of yes and sort of no. We'd be like god but we wouldn't be god since we'd lack the supernatural aspects. So we should be plenty perfect but not all knowledgable and powerful and all that great stuff. I just had a brief discussion with a xian who claims that we weren't made perfectly since god only said that we were good (I guess god was supposed to exclaim his creation was perfect but since he didn't it was only good...whatever this means I've yet to get a meaningful answer from her). She then said that only god was perfect and so if anything else was perfect it too would be god. This makes no sense to me since, as I said above, perfection does not imply any special powers or ability. A perfect specimen of dog, by human standard, does not elevate the dog to human status and so I would think a perfect human would not be elevated to god even if the standard is from god. So god, being perfect, would create a perfect human in any case since anything less reflects poorly on gods own abilities and traits. So we need to figure out what a perfect human is and does. A perfect human sins by default or a perfect human can choose to sin. We're told that we did not sin by default and that it was a choice that was made so now we can answer the question and that is that a perfect human does not sin by default but may choose to do so...the free will aspect. So does a perfect human obey its creator and master or not? This is the question that xians need to answer before free will can be considered. If the perfect choice for a perfect human to make is to obey god then a perfect human will always make this choice. If the perfect choice for a perfect human is to not obey god then a perfect human will always make this choice. Sometimes obey and sometimes not aren't valid here since perfection is the absolute on the scale (you are perfect or you're not...there is no 50% perfect for example). So it can't be said that it's sometimes perfect to obey god and sometimes it is not. It is or it isn't. So depending on what the perfect choice is will determine what choice had to be made. We know that the bible states that we did not obey god and so we can deduce that not obeying god was the perfect choice for the perfect human. Perhaps obeying god is the perfect choice for a perfect god but since we are not god those standards cannot be applied. To do so logically makes god imperfect. If this is truly the case, then other than the claims that god is perfect, the whole bible starts to make a lot more sense. So, in a nutshell, it can be easily shown that a perfect god would create a perfect object (whatever that object may be). That object can be perfect and not be god. Since humans could have only been created perfect, can make choices (supposedly freely) and chose to disobey god it can mean that a perfect human will not obey god. The bible does not say we suddenly became imperfect but only that we had become like god (knowing good and evil) and that we would not live forever. The conclusion here is that we are still perfect humans. We are what we are. God simply cannot accept us since he applies the wrong standard to us (he compares us against him) and is exposed as a fraud as a perfect being does not make this mistake (being a perfect human I do not expect my cat to be a perfect human as well but simply a cat...a perfect cat though I imagine since he does all the cat things). mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Christian evangelicals always claim (especially when 'witnessing') that god gave us free will. And usually mention that we are , 'all free to choose'. That is until you use your god given freedom to choose something other than what they preach, then the coercion starts. For instance, if you were truly free, they would present their beliefs to you......you would decide and that would be the end of the matter. However if you do say NO then the "after death threats" follow, hell etc. So what I,m saying is what is the freedom worth if it is under duress? If someone pulls a gun on me in the street and says, 'You have a choice: You can give me your money, or not, but if you don,t I'll blow you away" that is not free choice. You might make a choice, but it isn,t free. Does not the bible god say the same thing, in another way? Believe or you will be eternally damned. Therefore, in fundamentalist christianity there is NO free will, or freedom of choice. We are having that discussion in the collosseum. Would you care to give join us? http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=4548&st=260 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 the poor things. Are you okay tonight? You seem to be in a very "I love everybody" Humanitarian mood tonight. Did you run over a fundie coming home from church or something? I drive a '95 Pontiac Grand Prix. Pretty aerodynamic, so a fundy would sort of bounce up onto my hood and roll off to the side if I hit one, at least on paper. Thanks again for the concern, but you worry too much - I was just being sarcastic, however mildly. Boy, I sure throw you for some loops, don't I? I, too, was being sarcastic. I was not worried. I just like busting your chops every once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibby Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 We are having that discussion in the collosseum. Would you care to give join us? http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=4548&st=260 Thanks skeptic i think i may Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Helmet Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Ugh. After reading the travesty "argument" put forth by Subby in the other thread regarding free-will.........I want to claw my eyeballs out. I love how pissy they get when you point out how you just can't have it both ways.....unless they are Subby, who seems someow convinced that completely contradictory concepts are somehow BOTH true. He watched his mom get eaten alive by irate squirrels. You know it's true. It's called doublethink, it's a very powerful tool used by organization to keep the sheep in the fold by keeping them from rationalizing things such as contradictions or flat out lies. If you've read George Orwell's 1984 you definitively know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 As quoted in the bible, James 1:8 "A double-minded man is unstable in all of his ways" Hmmmmm, so that would make god unstable would it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I think the problem lies between definitions of "free will" and it will never be resolved especially by logic. Christians' definition of "free will" is choice between following and not following and that god doesn't make the choice for you, except by his judgement, hmmmm. Atheists and the logical definition is that "free will" is a choice between serving or not serving without the fear of punishment. You are not going to convince any bible thumper that ultimatums are not the same as free will. Dictators, terrorists, murderers, and rapists, all give the same free will that god does. Do what they say or face the punishment. It is your choice. If someone put a gun to a Christian's head and said, "You have the free will to choose if I rape you or let you live and walk away", which do you think they would choose? By atheist definition, they have the free will to walk away without fear of punishment. By the Christian view, well, let's just say they are the ones holding the gun giving you that free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philo Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I think when the first robot was invented the biblical notion of free will went out the door. Humans make robots to serve them, and the smarter we get the better our robots get. If I understand the Bible correctly, were told that god "built" us to serve him. The assumtion has always been that god is a smart as one gets, and human beings are the best creatures that he could build. Highly debateable. Either way, if a person believes they are created, then they were built by a more intelligent life form. Whether a person thinks they were created magnificently doesn't matter. The reason is because if you are built then you were built with certain limitations and functions. It would be no problem for a god to create humans, put them in a world with things to do, sprinkle in some dynamics like good and evil, then build into man the illusion that he has the power of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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