Purple Rhino Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 This was sent to me by a friend and I wanted to share it here. If it is in the wrong catagory please move it for me I wasn't sure where to add it. PR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are Fundamentalist Christians Stubborn, Stupid Or Stuck? By Wayne Adkins May 9, 2005 I recently read an op-ed piece by a pastor who dragged out the tired old question, “Was Jesus liar, lunatic or Lord?” The premise, for those who haven’t heard this gem, is that Jesus claimed to be God and could therefore only be regarded as a liar, because he knew he wasn’t, a lunatic because he thought he was, or Lord because he actually was. The problem, alliteration aside, is that we are presented with only three options as if those three exhaust all the possible answers. But there is a fourth and more likely option: legend. The writers of the gospels simply embellished when they wrote that Jesus claimed to be God among other things. It happens. George Washington was an actual historical figure, but he didn’t throw a dollar across the Delaware or chop down his father’s cherry tree and he didn’t have wooden teeth. Those are all legends about him created to boost his stature. So here we are in the year 2005 and Kansans are debating teaching intelligent design alongside evolution, a pastor in North Carolina is kicking out church members who don’t support Bush and Pat Robertson is claiming that Muslims shouldn’t be judges while conservatives are simultaneously complaining that Bush’s judicial nominees are not being approved because of their faith. I have to ask the question, are fundamentalist Christians stubborn, stupid or stuck? The previous Pope admitted that evolution was “more than a theory.” He took the time to educate himself about evolution and realized that it does not preclude a belief in God. But fundamentalists cling to a literal interpretation of the Bible which says the earth was created only 10,000 years ago, not enough time to allow for evolution to produce the diversity of life seen today. They argue that anything that contradicts this literal view of Genesis is wrong. So perhaps they are just too stubborn to educate themselves about evolution. Maybe they really haven’t seen the overwhelming evidence pointing toward evolution. Maybe they have their heads in the sand or just decided to plug their ears and sing “la la la I’m not listening.” The second option is that they are stupid. Maybe they have seen the evidence and just don’t understand the implications. Maybe they really are clueless about how the scientific process works. Maybe they accept faith as a substitute for reason because they are unable to reason. The third option is that they are stuck. Religious leaders have a lot riding on what their congregants believe, mainly their livelihoods and their social status. They are stuck between pursuing the truth and pursuing an income and let’s face it, religion is big business. Besides that, a guy who has been a preacher his entire life generally has few other marketable skills. So he swallows his doubts, puts on the emperor’s new clothes and parades himself down the street. For the folks in the stupid category who can’t understand empirical evidence, perhaps their only fault is listening to the wrong people. But for those who are in the stubborn or stuck categories there is little excuse. If you believe that your beliefs will determine your position in eternity and you deliberately ignore a great deal of the available evidence, then you are not just being stubborn, you are being, well, stupid. If you are clinging to a failed belief system because your livelihood or social status depends on it then you are responsible for perpetuating the stupidity of the previous two groups. Shame on you. Throughout history scientific discoveries have had the church making concessions about previously held dogma. Fundamentalists have drawn the line and said “Enough! We have the absolute truth and no amount of evidence can change our minds about that.” Man is that stupid. ------------ About the author: Wayne Adkins is a former fundamentalist christian who became an atheist after two years of bible college. He is now a military officer recently returned from a year in Iraq...a real live atheist in a foxhole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 I think fundamentalists are stubborn, stupid and stuck. I generally use these adjectives to describe them: Gullible. Obtuse. Catatonic. Put a loaded gun to the head of a man and watch how he behaves. It's about fear. Fear of change. Fear of coping alone. Fear of an afterlife. Fear of living with unanswerable questions. Fear of life. Fear of death. Fear over unresolved guilt. Fear over personal shame. Fear of retribution. Fear that injustices in life will not be dealt with justly. Fear will make a person do very strange things indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 It is about fear. At the base of it all, christianity is about fear. They give you fear and sell you the relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Rhino Posted May 10, 2005 Author Share Posted May 10, 2005 I agree with both of you. Fear will even put evil into offices of power. PR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Fear will even put evil into offices of power. I believe that man, faced with his personal disconcerting fears, eventually and inevitably, writes the answers himself for the questions with which he cannot live. He does, in fact, design his own god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokmer Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 I believe that man, faced with his personal disconcerting fears, eventually and inevitably, writes the answers himself for the questions with which he cannot live. He does, in fact, design his own god. So true... Perhaps that's why atheism is hard to get a handle on. Always remember what my favorite muppet said.... Fear is the path to the Dark Side -Lokmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 And little children growing up in a fundy household are on an IV drip of fear after fear after fear... ...while being told that xians are cheerful. There's no horror film more terrifying to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 I think fundamentalists are stubborn, stupid and stuck. I generally use these adjectives to describe them: Gullible. Obtuse. Catatonic. Put a loaded gun to the head of a man and watch how he behaves. It's about fear. Fear of change. Fear of coping alone. Fear of an afterlife. Fear of living with unanswerable questions. Fear of life. Fear of death. Fear over unresolved guilt. Fear over personal shame. Fear of retribution. Fear that injustices in life will not be dealt with justly. Fear will make a person do very strange things indeed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sometimes that can be the main assumption, when in reality most "religious leaders", or "pastors" have skills in areas that would pay much more than the annual rate of a church. There is a 4th "fudie" attribute to some at least, very similar to those on these forums; we believe in what we believe, and by faith, not "man created evidence", apply that to our belief in the Bible. The real question is, Why do we believe "science" that has continually been updated and discredited, in the advancemnet of technology and time. Yes, "science has corrected itself, but inorder for something to be in correction; It must first be incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerpentIntheMidst Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 It is about fear. At the base of it all, christianity is about fear. They give you fear and sell you the relief. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> that about sums it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 The real question is, Why do we believe "science" that has continually been updated and discredited, in the advancemnet of technology and time. Yes, "science has corrected itself, but inorder for something to be in correction; It must first be incorrect. John 16:13 [Jesus speaking here] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. If the Holy Spirit was to guide someone into "all truth," it seems logical that this same person was being guided out of ignorance and error, or less truth. Isn't Christianity a process of growth and maturity? As for science, do you know what the word, science, means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokmer Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Sometimes that can be the main assumption, when in reality most "religious leaders", or "pastors" have skills in areas that would pay much more than the annual rate of a church. How quickly Christians forget that we used to be "of the body." Indeed, that many of us here were community leaders, elders, theology scholars, youth leaders, and pastors. MANY of us that are here on these forums are the same people that taught YOU what YOU believe. That fear is the guiding motivation behind Christianity is not an "assumption." It is a cold, hard, and unsettling fact that we know all to well - especially those of us who taught "love" as service to a God who will cast you into hell if you do not love him. There is a 4th "fudie" attribute to some at least, very similar to those on these forums; we believe in what we believe, and by faith, not "man created evidence", apply that to our belief in the Bible. You do? Why then do you believe doctrines formulated at church councils by men? The trinity, the co-godhood/manhood of Christ, the nature of the atonement, an eternal hell? These are not articles of faith in God by the Bible. These are abstractions that men have made. And, if there is no foundation for your faith, then what good is it? The real question is, Why do we believe "science" that has continually been updated and discredited, in the advancemnet of technology and time. Yes, "science has corrected itself, but inorder for something to be in correction; It must first be incorrect. You would perhaps find it disturbing to realize that religion continually adapts to culture - always has. Christianity is the ultimate syncretism - the God you believe in is NOT the God Paul believed in, and that God is not Isaiah's God. Doctrines in religion are always changing to fit cultural needs - both to serve the ambitions of the clergy, and salve the appetites and desires of the people. Or have you perhaps not heard of the Protestant Reformation, or the Great Schism, or the Great Awakenings, or the Puritans and Quakers? There is no true doctrine that survives, it has all been continually re-interpreted and re-invented (which is, after all, the job of theologians and preachers). The difference between religion and science is that science is based on observation and centers around a process that is designed to check the fallacies in human reasoning and provide for verification and advancement. Religion, on the other hand - even the BEST theology - is essentially revised along the lines of "what can I make plausible?" or "What's the need of today, and how can I justify meeting it using the scripture?" It always claims to be God's truth (or an approximation thereof), and it is always being changed. Science, on the other hand, acknowledges that it is potentially wrong about things and invites challenge, by its very nature. The process of science is clearly superior, even with the limitations and dogmatism of some of its practitioners. -Lokmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaoi Huntress Earth Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 I think it depends on the fundy because it could be just one or a combination of the others. It reminds me of this fundy I use to work with for five years at Culvers'. While she fell into the stuborn category and was proud of it (she was in her 50's), I think desperation had something to do with it. The poor woman had to give up her job as a French teacher at a Lutheran school and work at Culvers' because it had a health plan when her pharmist husband got ecola (sp) from some bad food and had to quit his job to recover. Now throw in a second job at a fancy German resturant with about an hour to two hour break between them along with mowing the lawn and cooking dinner (her young teenage daughter helped with some of the chores) and only four hours of sleep. (Some of us thought that her husband may not be as sick as she said he was.) I think her fundamentalist faith was what kept her from snapping though she got more cynical and self-rightous by the last year I worked there that even the most mundane comments (like looking forward to the Monsters Inc. movie) resulted in a snide comment. It's sad/interesting how desparate people can cling to something at the expense of the sanity of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Rhino Posted May 11, 2005 Author Share Posted May 11, 2005 ... we believe in what we believe, and by faith, not "man created evidence", apply that to our belief in the Bible... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> YoYo,(perfect name for you by the way) I'm trying to make some sense out of your statement. As even when I believed in very much the same things you profess. I saw man obtained, discovered, deciphered evidence. The fossils were not created by science they were studied by science. More to the point the bible that you cling too is man created in your reasoning just by the fact that you are claiming that the interpretation of an article is man created evidence. I would be more interested in your opinions if you could attempt to show that you have some real understanding of said opinion. PR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted May 11, 2005 Share Posted May 11, 2005 YoYo,(perfect name for you by the way) The fossils were not created by science they were studied by science. More to the point the bible that you cling too is man created in your reasoning just by the fact that you are claiming that the interpretation of an article is man created evidence. PR Amen, Purple Rhino. The Bible is MAN CREATED. Fossils are found as they were deposited independently of the human mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccles1:2 Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 On the fear-fuelled fundies: There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. If only they stubbornly believed useful stuff like this and acted it out themselves, rather than ranting about what everybody else should be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purple Rhino Posted May 13, 2005 Author Share Posted May 13, 2005 On the fear-fuelled fundies: There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. If only they stubbornly believed useful stuff like this and acted it out themselves, rather than ranting about what everybody else should be doing. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah but it's hard to remain Superior and actually follow scripture such as this one. An evangelist told me the first time I had to testify "Love fills the heart. But it's the fear of god that fills the pews! Exageration for salvation is the key" PR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquid ash Posted May 13, 2005 Share Posted May 13, 2005 A combination of being stubborn and being stuck make the most sense to me. That is, if these were to be the only choices. It's an awfully narrow list. I know plenty of Christians that I would not call stupid. (That stance is not very productive anyway.) Verse 1 John 4:18 is one of my favorite verses. I still love to read the book because it does contain beautiful verses like these. I think Christians venerate it too much and loose sight of the fact that it is a just a book. A very good book. However, anything in the wrong hands (or maybe I should say the wrong mind) can become a dangerous thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 I think it's mostly being stubborn and stuck. They aren't entirely stupid, but brainwashing does remove the ability to think logically, hence they do stupid things. I think they just want to live in the past, and are too afraid of change to move ahead. Christianity really is the ultimate rut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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