snookums Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 http://www.atheists.org/comingout/othercloset.html hope its helpful anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celsus Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 http://www.atheists.org/comingout/othercloset.html hope its helpful anyway. This is all fine and dandy, however it needs to be kept in mind that each person's circumstances are different. From family, to children to community, each person's coming out will affect them in different ways. Is it worth losing custody of your children for a principle? For many people, coming out as an atheist is a "Sophie's Choice", particularly when you are an ExChristian in a predominantly Christian society and community. In Islamic societies, coming out will result in your death, in the United States of Jesus, it might result in no consequences or in various degrees of loss. So while I would love to have a society where Atheists are accepted and treated equally, the reality is that we are not. One thing Wiccans, Christians, Jews, Muslims and most people in the USA agree on, is the we Atheists are deluded at best and a danger to the society at worst. //Bruce// Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Bruce, To be fair, the author DID address this very subject. He makes it clear that it is not prudent for everyone to just "come out", and that the pros and cons should be weighed in EVERY situation. I think he handled the subject very even-handedly, giving good advice all around. A very good read. I'm glad snookums posted this link. I've had this article for almost a year stored in my computer, but I forgot to include the LINK to it and so I couldn't find it and refer anyone to it. Good job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasemonkey Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 can't say as the article did much for me; it's just too much of a foreign concept. I'm certainly in the "level 4" range ...for a couple decades nearly. Personally, I find the largest number of the "level 5" guys to be a little obnoxious. I just don't see trying to work up to the same level of obnoxious "pride" in my beliefs as the average fundy to be a goal worthy of pursuing. I personally couldn't give a crap about the "merry christmas" vs "happy holidays" thing. The words don't mean a thing, it's the "chip on the shoulder" by both sides that *I* see as a little silly. I just see it as the usual perceived "persecution" crap; how insecure does a person have to be to really even care about such stupidity? ...of course, I've never had to pay any consequences for my beliefs. My fundy family members weren't given a say in what I believe, and I could care less how much they don't like it; it's their problem, not mine. Same with friends and co-workers. Sure, some people have been suprised if a topic came up that I weighed in on as an atheist (it isn't as though I have ever hid it); I've just never treated it as any kind of "big deal" and neither have they. In almost 20 years, I've never encountered anything significant as a result. Ironic that as a son of a "fire & brimstone" bible thumping southern baptist minister, I can't even fathom the idea of anyone losing a wife or kids simply because they find they can no longer stomach the whole "god" thing. I think that's one reason I like this group so much ...it has shown me the crap I grew up with was pretty minimal compared to so many others. I have faith (yes, faith!) that the current religious movement here in the US is doomed to failure. Mostly just because I know from experience that they are their own worst enemy. They will accept help from anyone willing to support their little "crusades," and history has shown that they have almost invariably gotten bit in the ass by it later. As long someone is against abortion, they don't give a damn that they are also against any kind of rights whatsoever for the common worker. Until they "reap what they sow," they have no clue about "cause and effect," and that will eventually be their demise. My older brother worked with a guy that was the loudest republican conservative bible-thumping christian in the bunch until he was diagnosed with Lou Gherigs. Bro said he had never seen anyone so utterly switch sides of the political spectrum so fast as a guy whose only hope of survival is stem-cell research. This particular case is kind of extreme, but there are more minor variations that happen every single day. It's going to happen; public perception will shift. Merely because the religious right shoot themselves in the foot every time they accept support for their crap campaigns against whatever, because they utterly ignore ulterior motives for whoever happens to be providing it. The political world is FULL of people willing to support the loudest voices, and nearly all of them want something in return later. Generally speaking, people who do this invariably never have the interests of the "common joe" in mind, yet the "common joe" is the one driving for the stuff in the first place. I refuse to think of myself as some sort of "persecuted minority" and could give a damn about how many people know I'm an atheist. It's the information age, and more and more every day people are going to be seeing the results of what their religious beliefs are blindly getting them into. It doesn't matter one whit how loud I scream my beliefs from the rooftops. Change is coming. I don't think we atheists are the ones who need to be worrying about it. I think most of what is going on in our country with the religious conservatives right now is just the last gasps from a dinosaur that knows it's about to croak. I only hope it is sooner rather than later; a dying animal is the one with the least to lose, making it the most dangerous. Amazing that a group of guys who wrote our constitution 240 years ago probably understood what's going on now better then than most of our leadership does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGiant Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 The level 5, essentially the "We're here and we're queer" level (equivalent from the gay side of the closet), seems to be less than optimal to me. Blasting it out always has seemed to be more of a way of self-validating and self-affirming an identity, as well as establishing the way that other people see you. In the end, though, that sort of thing tends to be a lot more work for the individual than what it is worth, leading to a backing off in what could be termed as militancy. Their fourth level seems good enough, more importantly is that someone feel comfortable with their own identity in their own situation. Action requirements generally don't seem to me to be a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I agree that the fourth level is the most preferable. Of course, I'm not even an Atheist, but in the end, all deconversions go through something like the five levels described on the site, and all those who drop the cult have to decide where they belong. I've encountered a few fifth levelers on this board and elsewhere, and they never cease to be just as annoying as the Xian fundies - and are usually the first to try and shove their beliefs down the throat of all who are not just like them. No matter what you ascribe to, being proud and also humble about it is naturally the best option, if you can have that. Some people can't, and everyone has to do what's best for them, not put beliefs above people or risk the only lives they get just to show off what they are. But if at all possible, no one should hide the fact they're non-xian - there are no more stakes in the public square for "infidels" and there will not be again, at least not here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scepticjoe Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 There's a saying: "Don't discuss religion or politics in polite conversation." I think it's reasonable to not discuss either with people you don't know well. You get into too many arguments. I am not ashamed of my political beliefs, but I find I can rapidly make enemies trying to espouse my beliefs, when the other person thinks differently. Another topic that I have found can stir very deep emotions is discussing stock market investing. Once again, I not ashamed of my investing skills, but I have found myself getting in heated debates with people who are fools but think they are investment experts. Similarly, I am not ashamed of my religious beliefs, but I am very careful who I talk about them to. Some people will assume any atheist is evil, and it's useless telling them otherwise. Of course with my good friends, I can discuss all these topics. My good friends tend to be openminded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasemonkey Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Similarly, I am not ashamed of my religious beliefs, but I am very careful who I talk about them to. Some people will assume any atheist is evil, and it's useless telling them otherwise. Of course with my good friends, I can discuss all these topics. My good friends tend to be openminded. Heh... the atheism vs evil business has been a funny experience for me. I have always been a little overly slanted towards scruples and ethics in my work. So much so that a few people had to reconsider their positions on atheism when the subject came up. I freaked a lot of people out ...they had assumed I was an extremely strong christian. ...some of the really christian types really cleaned their act up after finding out the atheist had a stronger work ethic than them! it was pretty amusing in a perverse kind of way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snookums Posted March 25, 2006 Author Share Posted March 25, 2006 Here's an interesting perceptive for a blogger who has 'come out'...I take a similar view - I choose not to remaind silent. ....especially about the 'abuses' that's so rampant in chrisitianity - of all denominations. (its not only catholic priests... ) http://gonesavage.blogsome.com/2006/01/20/...m-as-coming-out quotes... In the highly entertaining city of San Francisco, the words "coming out", spoken to friends, colleagues, and family usually denotes one thing: "I'm gay". However, while writing my atheist piece, I caught a glimpse of what "coming out" as gay may possibly feel like when I "came out" as atheist. Being gay and atheist is not the same situation, depending on the environment. San Francisco is, on the whole, a pretty open-minded city in which one can say "I'm Breatharian" and find a niche for that, irrational as it may be. That's what neat about San Francisco in some respects, that one can be so open to the effect that one's brains are in danger of falling out. I can stride outside and yell "I'm atheist!" at the top of my lungs and really, I would gain a passing grin or two as well as a grumble or two about being on LSD. Here, openly gay men and women are as free with their lifestyle as the typical heterosexual. "Coming out", whether meaning gay or atheist, in San Francisco, is really not that big a deal within the context of the city itself. I'm fortunate that way, as the United States still has big cities in which being gay and/or atheist is just another population sample in the tide of humanity. However, I didn't grow up in San Francisco; I grew up in upstate New York, where the majority of the population were conversative, belief-oriented, and somewhat bible-belt-ish. I think it's gotten better, but only slightly. It was, actually, at my parents' home in upstate New York that I wrote my piece, while a massive newsworthy piece on how churches have decided to be closed on Christmas Day ran. The context of upstate New York is different than that of San Francisco, even though my family has lived peacefully there for more than a decade. However, no one in my family has ever thought of atheism, or talked about it, to anyone outside personal friends and other family (that I know of). So there, it was with a slightly "coming out" feeling, that I wrote my piece. And it still feels like finally, I'm being open about some secret, when I say to friends and family that "I'm atheist." It feels like that because I have no idea what the reaction will truly be, until I am honest. It feels like that because it is part of who I am as a person, and that I am conscious of how misguided perceptions can color someone else's view of my lifestyle. I don't believe being gay is a choice at all, as it is with atheism. But I can understand that the hesitation to tell someone else is rested on pre-conceived notions of the idea of "gayness" or "atheism", that in the end, being "gay" or "atheist" (or any other minority orientation/lifestyle) inherently gives you the responsibility to honestly educate others on what gender orientation or belief/nonbelief truly entails. I think one can't be openly gay and not educate anyone about it. Someone, somewhere, even in San Francisco, is going to ask about it. Even by living the openly gay lifestyle, the person is teaching something very valuable about being human. The same is true for atheism. Being openly atheist has inherent responsibility in which, if I chose to be vocal, I also chose to teach or show. I cannot expect that just because I say "I'm atheist" I expect everyone else I meet, period, to understand exactly what I mean, because it is a minority position and very misunderstood. In this way, I feel that when I said "I'm atheist", I understood somewhat of what a person might feel if they said "I'm gay". The reality is is that in the world we live in now, mysticism is in the majority, just as heterosexuality is in the majority. By being openly gay or atheist, there is going to be confrontation or battles. And while I don't support the "brains-fall-out" type of open-mindedness that can exist in San Francisco (where every idea is possible), I also don't support close-mindedness in seeing that just because there is a majority trend, it must be right. In fact, I support the type of consciousness and thought that enables a person to come to the conclusion that a minority idea may, in fact, be reality. Thus the feeling of "coming out"- the feeling that I am one in a minority population that, by me living it, challenges the tide of "popular opinion". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manta Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 The tone of the main article makes me glad not to live in the US. Here in the UK, no-one is assumed to be anything (usually, the tensions ove rthe Isamicc religion has sprouted some ugly prejudices) and atheists are certainly not openly persecuted if/when they admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorena Rodriguez Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 The tone of the main article makes me glad not to live in the US. Here in the UK, no-one is assumed to be anything (usually, the tensions ove rthe Isamicc religion has sprouted some ugly prejudices) and atheists are certainly not openly persecuted if/when they admit it. Thank you for posting that. I was having an uneasy feeling reading the other postings (I have problems identifying my feelings after a lifetime of christianity). You are not persecuted in Canada for being an atheist. As you said about the U.K, nobody is assumed to be anything here. So no, I don't feel persecuted, I just feel lonely. Because when I was a church goer, I had a social circle, and now I have nothing. My non-christians aquaintances know that I have strange beliefs. I don't tell the christians, since I don't think it is any of their business. Lorena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Lorena, a lot of people here know that feeling. I lost a lot of friends on both sides, The first friends I lost when I became a Christian, and the again when I left the church. This all happened in high school, and I seriously considered going to a Christian school in Chicago becase surely God was punishing me. Eventually I decided to stay at my school and deal with everyone that knew about my religious awakening/abandonment avioding me or lecturing me. Eventually I made other friends and was ok. Looking for like-minded (or at least compatable) friends is kinda like dating. Most people are just not your type, it takes a while to meet new frineds that you are comfortable with. Give it some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorena Rodriguez Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Lorena, a lot of people here know that feeling. I lost a lot of friends on both sides, The first friends I lost when I became a Christian, and the again when I left the church. This all happened in high school, and I seriously considered going to a Christian school in Chicago becase surely God was punishing me. Eventually I decided to stay at my school and deal with everyone that knew about my religious awakening/abandonment avioding me or lecturing me. Eventually I made other friends and was ok. Looking for like-minded (or at least compatable) friends is kinda like dating. Most people are just not your type, it takes a while to meet new frineds that you are comfortable with. Give it some time. Thanks Dianka. I will try to be patient. Right now I am kind of dissapointed with the entire human race. It can only get better because it is pretty bad. The thing is that I am lonely by choice. I can't stand most people, so I am happier on my own. Weird huh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 The thing is that I am lonely by choice. I can't stand most people, so I am happier on my own. Weird huh! Not weird at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Thanks Dianka. I will try to be patient. Right now I am kind of dissapointed with the entire human race. It can only get better because it is pretty bad. The thing is that I am lonely by choice. I can't stand most people, so I am happier on my own. Weird huh! Welcome to MY world, Lorena. I can't stand being with people either. Been that way all my life. Solitude comforts me, while companionship angers me. (The only reason I can put up with YOU people is because we've never met in person! ) So I don't consider you "weird". What is "weird" to me is actually WANTING someone in your life disturbing your groove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorena Rodriguez Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Thanks Dianka. I will try to be patient. Right now I am kind of dissapointed with the entire human race. It can only get better because it is pretty bad. The thing is that I am lonely by choice. I can't stand most people, so I am happier on my own. Weird huh! Welcome to MY world, Lorena. I can't stand being with people either. Been that way all my life. Solitude comforts me, while companionship angers me. (The only reason I can put up with YOU people is because we've never met in person! ) So I don't consider you "weird". What is "weird" to me is actually WANTING someone in your life disturbing your groove. OK. I am convinced. I am not that weird after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 There's a saying: "Don't discuss religion or politics in polite conversation." I think it's reasonable to not discuss either with people you don't know well. You get into too many arguments. Totally agree. Learned this the hard way. The Internet is the only place I go these days to talk about stuff like that. Similarly, I am not ashamed of my religious beliefs, but I am very careful who I talk about them to. Some people will assume any atheist is evil, and it's useless telling them otherwise. Same here. I've told my immediate family members I'm agnostic, but there are people in my extended family who I haven't told. They may suspect, but I'm not telling them because I don't trust them to be non-judgmental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manta Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Perhaps it is down to the fact that discussing religion in polite company isn't the done thing is the reason why it persists so strongly: Christians happily discuss their experiences/visons/studies/indotrinations with other christians. But if they talked to everyone about such things, and people weren't polite enough just to nod and smile, then maybe reason would prevail over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Thanks Dianka. I will try to be patient. Right now I am kind of dissapointed with the entire human race. It can only get better because it is pretty bad. The thing is that I am lonely by choice. I can't stand most people, so I am happier on my own. Weird huh! Personally I've found that groups of people will always disappoint but then along comes the individual that makes you feel much better about "some" humans. Sorry to distract from the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunNSand4me Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 For those of us in the US, I'm wondering whether our perception/fear of being persecuted for not believing FAR exceeds reality. I'm with Amethyst who wrote "I'm not telling (some people) because I don't trust them to be non-judgmental." I feel this too, but are my feelings even warranted? Maybe some (most?) of these people won't be judgmental at all. Maybe I'm the one being too judgmental about them being judgmental. Of course there will be some fanatics plus a couple who genuinely do care in our families or communities who may give us a hard time, pray for our salvation, whatever. For the most part, though, I think we humans are simply vain and believe other people are thinking/talking/caring about us when in reality nobody is wasting their time. We must spend 99% more time analyzing what others think of us than the time we're actually thought of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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