feel like I took the red pill AND the blue pill

[rudderless]

Long-time listener, first time caller.  

 

Actually, that’s not even true. I came across this site somewhat recently but I have already spent hours here, many of them after midnight when I wish I was actually fast sleep. 

 

All in all, it seems to be a fairly friendly community, notwithstanding the ire displayed buy some when critiquing the mindset of “pushy, thoughtless“ Christians.  For me, Christianity always felt like a choice – something introduced by my parents but embraced and pursued by me. I never felt brainwashed or taken advantage of.  My exodus from the faith - which is still a work in progress - has been completely unintentional.  It has just left me (for many of the reasons that are given so much attention on this board) and I have to admit to being 100% rudderless right now, not comfortable or content in either world. 

 

In all honesty, I still want to believe in the world I knew, where there was a greater plan and purpose, a happy ending and a community of folks who were (mostly) united in supporting each other and trying to make the world a better place.  I grew up Catholic, attended a Baptist youth group and was active in Young Life in high school, went to a Bible church in college, spent a year in Honduras laying concrete floors with evangelicals, got married in a Presbyterian church and am currently a Methodist.  In all of those circles, I’d say 90% or more had their hearts in the right place, trying their best to love one another and better understand and more closely follow what they see (and feel deep down in their souls) as reality.  

 

Anyway, I could jump around from topic to topic and try to make a point or two, but that’s what the various threads are for, right?  I look forward to some constructive back and forth with those of you who enjoy a regular round of verbal (or is it digital) jousting, and also to the peace some of you promise will come in time.  But I have to say I’d be equally happy if I somehow wound up wandering back into the world I’ve lived in for most of the past 46 years. 

 

I’ll hang up and listen. 

[MOHO]

Welcome to the forum, @rudderless.

 

Glad you found us.

 

Regarding the ire some of us display, and I count myself in that crowd, many of us are impacted by RTS (Religious Trauma Syndrome - http://journeyfree.org/rts/) which is similar to PTSD. Certain things will trigger painful memories and hurt even though we've made piece with our lack of belief. Naturally we feel negatively towards the trigger sources. For me it's the self-righteous who cause the worst triggering... and I happen to be unequally yoked to one so, until I learn to live with/accept them...I guess I'll continue to feel some ire.

[midniterider]

2 hours ago, rudderless said:

Long-time listener, first time caller.  

 

Actually, that’s not even true. I came across this site somewhat recently but I have already spent hours here, many of them after midnight when I wish I was actually fast sleep. 

 

All in all, it seems to be a fairly friendly community, notwithstanding the ire displayed buy some when critiquing the mindset of “pushy, thoughtless“ Christians.  For me, Christianity always felt like a choice – something introduced by my parents but embraced and pursued by me. I never felt brainwashed or taken advantage of.  My exodus from the faith - which is still a work in progress - has been completely unintentional.  It has just left me (for many of the reasons that are given so much attention on this board) and I have to admit to being 100% rudderless right now, not comfortable or content in either world. 

 

In all honesty, I still want to believe in the world I knew, where there was a greater plan and purpose, a happy ending and a community of folks who were (mostly) united in supporting each other and trying to make the world a better place.  I grew up Catholic, attended a Baptist youth group and was active in Young Life in high school, went to a Bible church in college, spent a year in Honduras laying concrete floors with evangelicals, got married in a Presbyterian church and am currently a Methodist.  In all of those circles, I’d say 90% or more had their hearts in the right place, trying their best to love one another and better understand and more closely follow what they see (and feel deep down in their souls) as reality.  

 

Anyway, I could jump around from topic to topic and try to make a point or two, but that’s what the various threads are for, right?  I look forward to some constructive back and forth with those of you who enjoy a regular round of verbal (or is it digital) jousting, and also to the peace some of you promise will come in time.  But I have to say I’d be equally happy if I somehow wound up wandering back into the world I’ve lived in for most of the past 46 years. 

 

I’ll hang up and listen. 

 

Welcome to Ex-c. Why did you exit the faith? Are you having a battle between faith and reason? Maybe a battle between how you 'should live versus how you would prefer to live?

 

Christianity was also a choice for me. I opted in by choice and later opted out by choice.

[rudderless]

23 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Welcome to Ex-c. Why did you exit the faith? Are you having a battle between faith and reason? Maybe a battle between how you 'should live versus how you would prefer to live?

 

Christianity was also a choice for me. I opted in by choice and later opted out by choice.

 

There were always aspects of the faith and Bible that bothered me, and the usual answers involving God’s “sovereignty” and “mysterious ways” just stopped being good enough.  I don’t mind living the Christian way - most of it to me is about putting others’ interests before mine, which seems to be a pretty successful approach to marriage, fatherhood, friendships, business and relationships in general.

 

The Christian faith has always worked for me, so there hasn’t been anything to run from or freedom to escape to, aside from a curiosity for figuring out what’s real. I’m actually pretty torn up, as the world feels quite empty to me right now.

 

And just like I have problems with where I’ve been, I have problems with where I’m going.  I still don’t see how anyone can truly buy that a world/universe can spontaneously come into existence from nothing and that inorganic matter (that wasn’t created, but has always just been) somehow swirled around in just the right way such that life was formed.  I feel like atheists use “billions/trillions of years” to explain a lot of things the same way theists use God’s mysterious ways. 

 

Pretty frustrating place I’m in, but thanks for asking. 

[rudderless]

1 hour ago, MOHO said:

Welcome to the forum, @rudderless.

 

Glad you found us.

 

Regarding the ire some of us display, and I count myself in that crowd, many of us are impacted by RTS (Religious Trauma Syndrome - http://journeyfree.org/rts/) which is similar to PTSD. Certain things will trigger painful memories and hurt even though we've made piece with our lack of belief. Naturally we feel negatively towards the trigger sources. For me it's the self-righteous who cause the worst triggering... and I happen to be unequally yoked to one so, until I learn to live with/accept them...I guess I'll continue to feel some ire.

 

Makes sense. 

 

I’ve always been blessed (and cursed) with seeing things from both sides, so just like I never faulted atheists for what seemed like an understandable position, I don’t feel compelled to chastise or mock Christians for their beliefs.  Then again, I mostly stopped caring what others thought of me a long time ago, so it’s probably easier for me to let things slide off my back than it is for some. 

[Insightful]

Hi Rudderless!  Welcome =)

 

I can definitely relate to much of your story.  I'm 41, a husband and father.  I grew up in charismatic christianity with some Baptist influence, then got very fundamentalist in college (john MacArthur type).  Was super committed from age 22-35.  Led missions teams, orphan ministry, small groups, taught adult Sunday school, etc.  Always had questions and doubts but they never were enough to capsize my faith until biblical parenting ("though you beat him, he will not die...") was most certainly not making the intense behavior problems with my adopted daughter any better....  Once I realized the harmful ideas christianity had sold me (including male authority), my intellectual doubts resurfaced with a vengeance.  At 36, I came out to my wife as an agnostic who rejected inerrancy.

 

Like u, I can't wrap my mind around the origins of matter and the first living cells.  But I'm perfectly content not knowing.  Perhaps a god started it?  Or not.  I'm open.  But I no longer feel Like I have to resolve that tension of not knowing.

 

And yes, that peace does come!

 

Good luck.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, rudderless said:

 

There were always aspects of the faith and Bible that bothered me, and the usual answers involving God’s “sovereignty” and “mysterious ways” just stopped being good enough.  I don’t mind living the Christian way - most of it to me is about putting others’ interests before mine, which seems to be a pretty successful approach to marriage, fatherhood, friendships, business and relationships in general.

 

The Christian faith has always worked for me, so there hasn’t been anything to run from or freedom to escape to, aside from a curiosity for figuring out what’s real. I’m actually pretty torn up, as the world feels quite empty to me right now.

 

And just like I have problems with where I’ve been, I have problems with where I’m going.  I still don’t see how anyone can truly buy that a world/universe can spontaneously come into existence from nothing and that inorganic matter (that wasn’t created, but has always just been) somehow swirled around in just the right way such that life was formed.  I feel like atheists use “billions/trillions of years” to explain a lot of things the same way theists use God’s mysterious ways. 

 

Pretty frustrating place I’m in, but thanks for asking. 

 

So maybe you can take some things you like from Christianity ... and your curious nature .... add a dash of "I probably will not get all the answers" and create a unique  blend of you.

 

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, rudderless said:

...

I still don’t see how anyone can truly buy that a world/universe can spontaneously come into existence from nothing and that inorganic matter (that wasn’t created, but has always just been) somehow swirled around in just the right way such that life was formed.  I feel like atheists use “billions/trillions of years” to explain a lot of things the same way theists use God’s mysterious ways.

...

 

Welcome, Rudderless.

 

The scientists who actually do the hard work about these things do not claim that the "world/universe can spontaneously come into existence from nothing".  That is a strawman fallacy created by theists.  The general consensus considers the Big Bang Theory as the best explanation from current evidence about how our universe (in its present state) began.  That theory does not predict that the universe came from nothing.  It predicts it came from a singularity.  A singularity is a something, not a nothing.  Beyond that, these same scientists generally say, "I don't know".  Accordingly, you should consider discarding the "universe came from nothing" canard.

 

Your statement "I still don’t see how anyone can truly buy that...inorganic matter...somehow swirled around in just the right way such that life was formed"  seems to be an argument from incredulity, an informal logical fallacy.  The physicists, chemists and biologists who research in this area have discovered many of the hows and whys about the physical processes involved.  In any event, no matter or energy just "swirls around".  They follow many rules and laws which govern the known universe.  For example, stars form most of the elements during their life cycle.  Many of these elements tend to bond together to form molecules such as water, methane, amino acids, etc.  Many of the molecules found in life processes are found on other planets and moons and in free space in our solar system and around other stars.  There is no scientific theory for how carbon-based life originated on Earth.  However, there are several hypotheses currently being explored and many are becoming more and more robust as time passes.  Indeed, current research indicates that there are many plausible ways for life to have originated on Earth and we may never know for sure which process actually occurred.  Currently, the scientists involved generally say, "I don't know" how life began on Earth.  Neither do you or I.  Replacing "I don't know" with GODDIDIT is one of the theist's favorite parlor tricks.  I'll reserve discussion of the fact of biological evolution and the resulting scientific Theory of Biological Evolution (which only deals with life after its initial formation) for another time, since your statement did not cover it.

 

Again, welcome to the forum.

[rudderless]

1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

Replacing "I don't know" with GODDIDIT is one of the theist's favorite parlor tricks.  I'll reserve discussion of the fact of biological evolution and the resulting scientific Theory of Biological Evolution (which only deals with life after its initial formation) for another time, since your statement did not cover it.

 

Again, welcome to the forum.

 

Hard to pick up tone online, so apologies if I came off cheeky (“swirled around” meant to convey randomness), but I’m not trying to create any canards or trick anyone.  Just telling you what my brain (that brought me here somewhat against my wishes) can and can’t process.  I really don’t have an angle or end game here. 

 

I let my brain wander back through the eons and it looks for a start.  I can no longer picture God sitting around and deciding to create the world as the Bible describes it, but neither can it comprehend (this is my crude understanding) a super-compressed quantity of energy that always was and somehow got triggered and has released everything that’s ever been.  And short of dedicating myself to a lifetime (or half a lifetime, given that I’m 46) of study, I’m going to have to trust that those scientists you referred to 1) really have it figured out and 2) can use some observations and measurements today (as provable as they may be) to explain some super complex things that happened umpteen billion years ago.  I know you’re going to be bugged by this, but that seems to require at least a bit of faith. 

 

All that said, I do appreciate your insight.  Not sure if you read the entire string, but I’m stuck in no man’s land right now, not trying to stand in judgement of either side.  

[rudderless]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

 

So maybe you can take some things you like from Christianity ... and your curious nature .... add a dash of "I probably will not get all the answers" and create a unique  blend of you.

 

 

I’m thinking this may be where I come out at the end of the day. 

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, rudderless said:

 

Hard to pick up tone online, so apologies if I came off cheeky (“swirled around” meant to convey randomness), but I’m not trying to create any canards or trick anyone.  Just telling you what my brain (that brought me here somewhat against my wishes) can and can’t process.  I really don’t have an angle or end game here. 

 

I let my brain wander back through the eons and it looks for a start.  I can no longer picture God sitting around and deciding to create the world as the Bible describes it, but neither can it comprehend (this is my crude understanding) a super-compressed quantity of energy that always was and somehow got triggered and has released everything that’s ever been.  And short of dedicating myself to a lifetime (or half a lifetime, given that I’m 46) of study, I’m going to have to trust that those scientists you referred to 1) really have it figured out and 2) can use some observations and measurements today (as provable as they may be) to explain some super complex things that happened umpteen billion years ago.  I know you’re going to be bugged by this, but that seems to require at least a bit of faith. 

 

All that said, I do appreciate your insight.  Not sure if you read the entire string, but I’m stuck in no man’s land right now, not trying to stand in judgement of either side.  

 

 

Yes, and I apologize for being direct and focusing on just a portion of one of your prior posts.  I believe you when you say your are not (consciously) trying to "create any canards".  Still, you presented two theist canards, well known PRATTs, without realizing it.  You didn't create them, your just used them.  If you wish to contest or challenge whether you have done so, please present your arguments and any supporting evidence as to why they are not canards or why my conclusions that they are canards are faulty or incorrect.  Otherwise, let's move on, with the exception of my repeating what I recommended to you about each of them:  (i) don't use the "universe came from nothing" strawman canard in the future and (ii) just because you don't understand something does not mean that GODDIDIT.

 

As to the new trust and faith issue you raise, I would suggest we first reach an understanding on the meaning of those words.  But before that, I would like you to acknowledge that my post contains the claim, "I don't know", attributed to scientists, to myself and to you, as to (i) certain cosmology and (ii) abiogenesis.  I cannot reconcile how stating "I don't know" would demonstrate that I have faith that the thing I do not know about is true.  Can you clear that up for me?

 

Now, as to the word "faith".  It is a loaded and somewhat toxic word, having two rather distinct meanings, and is carelessly used by many without regard to the different meanings.  The religious definition of faith (see Hebrews in the Cristian Bible) is (and I'm paraphrasing) 'Wishful thinking and that same wishful thinking is evidence of invisible things' also described as 'belief without evidence'.  The secular definition of faith" focuses on the words trust and confidence and means belief based on evidence.  See the difference?

 

Most rational thinkers have trust and confidence in the scientific method, logic, evidence based reasoning and (most importantly) the relative probability of whether a claim, assertion or statement is true or false.  Yes, the secular definition of "faith" has a role here, but the words trust, confidence, likely, unlikely, plausible, probable (and many others) are much more accurate.  The religious definition of "faith" is wholly absent.

 

Therefore, I would like to ask you which definition of "faith" are you using when you used that word in your post quoted above?

 

A couple more things:

 

1 hour ago, rudderless said:

...those scientists you referred to...really have it figured out

...

 

If you learn about the scientific method, one thing you will discover is the concept (and requirement) of falsifiability.  No scientific theory is definitive and every one can be altered, improved or wholly rejected based on new evidence.  So, any "figuring out" is at best tentative and not permanent.  Granted, some scientific theories have a much higher probability of being correct than others (e.g., germ theory, evolutionary theory) and some are a bit more tenuous (e.g., big bang theory).  In short, the typical elucidation concerning any scientific theory goes something like, "It is the best explanation (or set of explanations) for all available and relevant empirical evidence".

 

1 hour ago, rudderless said:

...

[T]hose scientists you referred to...can use some observations and measurements today (as provable as they may be) to explain some super complex things that happened umpteen billion years ago.  

... 

 

There are several ways to forensically observe and measure the past.  For example, in astronomy, an observation of an object that is 2.1 billion light years away is an observation of an event that occurred 2.1 billion years ago.  As another example, scientists often create experiments with conditions and processes that are identical to conditions and processes existing in the past.  Granted, both of these techniques are based on an assumption...an assumption that permeates science.  The assumption is called Uniformitarianism (Doctrine of Uniformism), which assumes the laws of physics, chemistry, etc. have always been the same and are the same everywhere in the universe.  If you want to challenge that philosophical and scientific axiom, be my guest.

[rudderless]

2 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

If you want to challenge that philosophical and scientific axiom, be my guest.

 

Truce. 

 

I think I need to find my way to the kiddie pool. 

[LogicalFallacy]

Welcome rudderless

 

Glad you've joined the site, and I do hope you find your rudder.

 

Regarding your issues with science, which sdelsolray so excellently covered, lets assume that we simply cannot figure out how the universe first started, or how life first started. Does that necessarily mean that a god did it, or is the more reasonable answer I don't know?

 

I often tell people that its perfectly fine to say I don't know when faced with a question to which you don't know the answer. This frustrates theists no end. One because they have a need to know, and two because  they think they do know.

 

Personally I feel that the Bible God can be refuted to the point that you can say that he doesn't exist without referring to cosmology or abiogenesis. In fact the bible itself is a great refutation of itself.

 

Hope to see you around, join in some of the topics, and there's plenty of old and great threads hanging about.

 

LF

 

[Geezer]

I'm not a believer now, but I spent 47 years of my life as a fundamentalists. My wife is still a believer. We reached an agreement some time ago that I would attend services with her if she would attend a mainstream version of Christianity. She ended up in the Methodist Church & is actually very happy there. 

 

I will ill admit it is very different from a fundy version of Xianity. Very nice folks & they aren't dogmatic about their beliefs, so they are tolerable. That of course doesn't change the fact none of what they believe is true. I can handle a couple hours a week of Jesus to keep my wife happy. I've learned how to simply tune out the sermons. 

 

Sunday School is a little more problematic, but the donuts & coffee are free, so there are some benefits.

 

We've all been where you are now so we can relate. The journey out of religion is often long & difficult. I believe you will find this site helpful. 

[rudderless]

On 12/23/2017 at 9:33 AM, Geezer said:

We've all been where you are now so we can relate. The journey out of religion is often long & difficult. I believe you will find this site helpful. 

 

 

Thanks, although I’m not sure where I am at this point. 

 

There seems to be agreement that where/how long you’ve be “in” has a significant impact on how you arrive once you leave.  My Christian experience (and experience with Christians) has been 95% positive, so I’m not coming from a place of hurt or deception.  But I may be in the minority, as there’s a decent amount of hostility and/or ridicule towards believers here (not on this specific thread necessarily), which I don’t feel, and which seems a bit surprising given that many claim to have been Christians themselves at one point. 

 

I guess I’ll just mosey around a bit and see if I find a few folks more like me who are sad to be moving on from a comfortable understanding of life and into a place with a lot of questions. 

[Geezer]

21 hours ago, rudderless said:

 

Thanks, although I’m not sure where I am at this point. 

 

There seems to be agreement that where/how long you’ve be “in” has a significant impact on how you arrive once you leave.  My Christian experience (and experience with Christians) has been 95% positive, so I’m not coming from a place of hurt or deception.  But I may be in the minority, as there’s a decent amount of hostility and/or ridicule towards believers here (not on this specific thread necessarily), which I don’t feel, and which seems a bit surprising given that many claim to have been Christians themselves at one point. 

 

I guess I’ll just mosey around a bit and see if I find a few folks more like me who are sad to be moving on from a comfortable understanding of life and into a place with a lot of questions. 

 

I sounds like you were associated with a mainstream or liberal version of Christianity. Liberal versions of Christianity are less legalistic & controlling than fundamentalists versions. The fundamentalists versions are generally the ones that are most problematic. They tend to be extremist when it comes to their doctrines & beliefs.  

 

It seems to require a certain mindset to believe the Christian dogma that most of us that participate here don't have. 

[MOHO]

14 hours ago, rudderless said:

But I may be in the minority, as there’s a decent amount of hostility and/or ridicule towards believers here

 

@rudderless,

 

I get your drift here and agree with you - to a certain extent. I feel hostility towards SOME practicing Christians. Like you I have had some good experiences with them, but I've also encountered some holier-than-thou, self aggrandizing, assholish, self-righteous, pious pricks as well.  And I encounter them almost daily as they are friends...well...Mrs. MOHO's friends.

 

That said my angst is only partially towards the xtians themselves. It's mostly towards the religion that gave me false hope for a here-after and a chance to be with loves ones again. I'm also angry at it because it seems to be destroying my marriage.

[rudderless]

11 hours ago, MOHO said:

That said my angst is only partially towards the xtians themselves. It's mostly towards the religion that gave me false hope for a here-after and a chance to be with loves ones again. I'm also angry at it because it seems to be destroying my marriage.

 

MOHO, I appreciate your reply here.  I just had a few drinks (and a couple of smokes) with a close (Christian) friend, and shared with him my recent discovery and interaction with y’all here on this site.  It feels good to open up and connect with folks (I’m talking about yall) regarding the doubts and inconsistencies I’ve encountered in my faith/life journey over the past few years.  And while I know we all come here with our own different baggage in tow, I’m not sure I feel like I’ve made any real progress yet - not that I’m blaming anyone here. 

 

I want you to know that no matter where I end up at the end of this odyssey, I’m no defender of sanctimonious, judgemental “Christians”, as the hypocrisy of folks like that is not lost on me.  I guess I’m fortunate (in the past, I would’ve said blessed) enough to see this as my own search for what’s real, and allow others to see the world how they see it.  But I do sincerely empathize with you with regards to the pain of a struggling marriage and the hypocrisy of your wife’s judgemental friends. 

 

Here’s where I came out tonight in my chat with my amigo.  There’s a god or there’s not.  If there’s not, this is all a dream with (little) rhyme or reason, so it’s everyone for themselves, given a few courtesies so we don’t step on each other’s toes too often.  If there is, I hope it’s the Christian god, despite all the inconsistencies and reasons to doubt him (or her, as man decided he’s a he, right?), because I can’t get comfortable with an anonymous, sidelines god who set this whole thing in motion, and has no desire to get involved. 

 

My 2¢.  

[MOHO]

Hey @rudderless,

 

I urge patients on the whole examination of Christianity/religion and how it fits (or does not fit?) into your life. It took me 2 years to fully deconvert and that included a brief attempt to reconnect with the faith.

 

The self-righteous xtian I encountered were only part of the motivation to reexamine things with eyes more open. The more I read the Bible, I mean really READ the thing rather than rely on someone Else's interpretation or just spot reading. the less sense it made. That, more than anything else, urged me to study outside sources. 

 

For your reading pleasure:

Richard Carrier shows us how the Bible, a collection of literary works, came into being.

Richard Dawkins reveals, from a scientific viewpoint, how plants and animals did not simply flash into being.

David Fitzgerald, although less accomplished as the others, puts it all into words that us mere mortals can appreciate.

 

Good luck on your journey - wherever that takes you. Stop in from time to time and let us know how it's going...

[midniterider]

10 hours ago, rudderless said:

 

  There’s a god or there’s not.  If there’s not, this is all a dream with (little) rhyme or reason, so it’s everyone for themselves, given a few courtesies so we don’t step on each other’s toes too often.  If there is, I hope it’s the Christian god, despite all the inconsistencies and reasons to doubt him (or her, as man decided he’s a he, right?), because I can’t get comfortable with an anonymous, sidelines god who set this whole thing in motion, and has no desire to get involved. 

 

My 2¢.  

 

Consider that non-believers live happy lives without following God's great plan for their life. Maybe they have their own great plan.

And of course believers live happy lives as well, though it's really hard to tell if God is doing anything.

Whichever makes you feel better is the way to go. You 'could' pick and choose the religious ideas you like, modify them how you want and dump the rest.

[Tess]

dear rudderless

I am brand new to this site ...this is my first posting.....but your position is very similar to mine.

I have been attending church....many churches in fact for over 60 years.

I also have mental health issues which are quite mild.(anxiety n depression).

Over the years my xianity has definitely been a wonderful source of solace and deep healing very many times.....I cannot deny that.

 

However, Since beginning to study the bible in depth (1980s), my mental health has drastically deteriorated.

 

Previous to that, my faith was that of simplicity.....Jesus loved me, enough to die for me.....all I needed to do in return was to have a relationship with Him.....to show love to others, obey the commandments and this brought me great peace .....in spite of being prone to anxiety and low mood...my Faith seemed to help with this.

 

Since buying my first study bible, leaving the Catholic church and becoming Charismatic/Pentecostal/Evangelical.....my mental health has certainly deteriorated dramatically.

 

As a conscientious empath, I always was v intense and determined to be the best at everything I tried.....being the best daughter,  wife, mum,  friend and Xtian.....

 

Trying to live by biblical rules broke me. I am still a mess.....having depression and anxiety seemed to cause overwhelming guilt....as the Pentecostal stance of "triumphalism" drove me over the edge.....perfect health was expected ...perfect victory...etc etc.....perfect marriage in spite of abuse.....trying to avoid divorce because it was forbidden...led to extra years of struģgle and spiritual abuse, financial hardship and stress related ill health.(M.E.).

I was forced to vomit up demons.

.Made to feel a failure for being unwell.

More recently I was ostracised by a church for asking the pastor to help a church member who was bullying and controlling myself and another lady(in secret of course) whilst wearing a mask of fake piety in front of the rest of the church.She was lying, playing the victim,crying crocodile tears .....a typical Narcissist....no one would believe me and I was asked never to contact the church again. The Pastor showed the bully my email of complaint as well...so instead of getting the help she needed, this secret bully was enabled to carry on the abuse and I was considered a trouble maker.

 

This has been the last straw for me....

living by biblical rules has been a nightmare.....all i have been able to do for months...in order to cope, is to read the Psalms n Proverbs to get some comfort.

 

I am heart broken and disillusioned by Christianity...by disappointment with God and His promises....

 

Now, aged 73, I am running out of time and ways to heal.

PLEASE can anyone help me...I live near Manchester in UK and would love to find a support group to talk all this over with...I am traumatised and hurt.

Tess (newbie)....

[rudderless]

On 1/1/2018 at 1:02 PM, Tess said:

Now, aged 73, I am running out of time and ways to heal.

PLEASE can anyone help me...I live near Manchester in UK and would love to find a support group to talk all this over with...I am traumatised and hurt.

Tess (newbie)....

 

Tess - 

 

So nice to meet you.  I want to start by sharing a time years ago when I was having a tough go of things - more life things than faith things - and opened up to a friend I knew from church, although not real well.  He asked me if I knew what were the two most powerful words in the English language.  Knowing he was a churchgoing guy, I said, “Jesus saves.”  He said no, that it was “Me, too,” and proceeded to tell me how he was struggling with many of the same things. 

 

You just gave me a “Me, too” and I want to thank you for it and give it right back to you.  It actually seems like the “Me, too” factor may be what’s drawn a lot of the folks to this site - those that have walked a similar path and find comfort in communing with others they relate to. 

 

As to our particular pickle - doubting, but not ready to leave it all behind - I’m still mostly at a loss.  I’m reminded of the movie The Recruit with Al Pacino.  At a very tense point toward the end, he and Colin Farrell are trying to figure out if one or the other is a traitor and Pacino starts telling the story of an old cardinal who goes to the Pope and says, “Holy Father, what am I to do?  I don’t believe in God anymore.  What am I to do?”  He says the Pope tells him,  “Fake it.”

 

For now I’m in a “faking it” mode. It’s not fun and it seems insincere.  And I have to stop short of sharing my faith aloud or professing to my three boys that I know for sure what I used to think I knew. But, as I’ve shared on this thread, no one can deny that while there’s been a lot of “no good” done by Christians and in the name of the church through history and up to today, there’s a lot of charity and caring for those in need and love toward one another that’s been carried out and inspired by Jesus and his teachings, too.  Proverbs has always been a favorite, along with Ecclesiastes.  Plus, I still feel a hole in me looking for a bigger purpose and power in this world than I get from the science-only explanation others here find comfort in. 

 

One last suggestion is to download “Past the Edges” by Chris Rice.  Over half the songs speak exactly to these questions, frustrations and doubts that have brought you and me together.  You’ll swear he’s reading your mind. 

 

Me too,

rudderless

[Guest]

On 12/27/2017 at 11:46 PM, rudderless said:

 

Thanks, although I’m not sure where I am at this point. 

 

There seems to be agreement that where/how long you’ve be “in” has a significant impact on how you arrive once you leave.  My Christian experience (and experience with Christians) has been 95% positive, so I’m not coming from a place of hurt or deception.  But I may be in the minority, as there’s a decent amount of hostility and/or ridicule towards believers here (not on this specific thread necessarily), which I don’t feel, and which seems a bit surprising given that many claim to have been Christians themselves at one point. 

 

I guess I’ll just mosey around a bit and see if I find a few folks more like me who are sad to be moving on from a comfortable understanding of life and into a place with a lot of questions. 

You're going through a natural process with deconversion, sadness and grief are part of it, so just give it time. I went through that too. And I largely had a positive church community of support in spite of some very negative elements in it. I felt a great deal of love in my church community sometimes. It was the fundamentalist doctrine that broke my heart in the end and resulted in my leaving.

I personally am OK with the questions, I don't need to know how this universe started, or whether there was or is some god. But the god of the bible I wasn't ok with, nor was I OK with original sin as it was taught by my church. I can't fathom how someone could get through reading the entire bible, and then proclaim that "God is love." You'll see why many of us take issue with what's in the bible if you do any hanging around in the forum, there is a great deal of information on that. Once again, give yourself time, and patience, it's a process. Reading the books recommended by many readers here was excellent for me. Knowledge is power, and for me, it was peace too.