Guest ssb Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 It has been said that humans' acts of selflessness is due to the fact that we were made in God's image and therefore inherited elements of his kindness and grace and that is why we help people out sometimes when it doesn't benefit us in any way at all. Now if there is no God, then where do we get our good nature from and thus our bad nature as well? If evolutionists believe we evolve, then does our "soul" / "conscience" also evolve and how? I find it hard to believe that if there is no God and was no creation, then why do we feel? what being/power initiated in us the ability to have emotions and opinions, because surely then that means that the creator has feelings too? and therefore creation wasn't just a scientific explosion or occurance. Surely then we were intended to be created and we weren't an accident. And if that is the case then why would a caring creator make us and leave us? does that mean he has an intention for us? has an interest in us? maybe even a life for us after this one? I'm confused. We think deeply, feel deeply, there's no end to it, so where did it start? Oh and I refer to "he" as its quicker to type, I'm not specifying that a creator has a gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 It has been said that humans' acts of selflessness is due to the fact that we were made in God's image and therefore inherited elements of his kindness and grace and that is why we help people out sometimes when it doesn't benefit us in any way at all. Now if there is no God, then where do we get our good nature from and thus our bad nature as well? If evolutionists believe we evolve, then does our "soul" / "conscience" also evolve and how? I find it hard to believe that if there is no God and was no creation, then why do we feel? what being/power initiated in us the ability to have emotions and opinions, because surely then that means that the creator has feelings too? and therefore creation wasn't just a scientific explosion or occurance. Surely then we were intended to be created and we weren't an accident. And if that is the case then why would a caring creator make us and leave us? does that mean he has an intention for us? has an interest in us? maybe even a life for us after this one? I'm confused. We think deeply, feel deeply, there's no end to it, so where did it start? Oh and I refer to "he" as its quicker to type, I'm not specifying that a creator has a gender. Short answer... yes, it did evolve. There's been enough debate, and some proof found, that we know that any group of beings that doesn't care for the other members of that group dies out. Groups that have the ability to care, remain together, protect each other, are more likely to survive and breed... Evolution just builds on that fact, with a very good explaination of how it came about. However, evolution does NOT preclude the existence of a higher power... the Judaic religions, on the other hand, (which are the one's to use the argument you opened with) show very clearly that God has very little kindness and grace, but a shed load of anger, jealousy, hate, a prediliction for throwing tantrums, the personality that will get someone into trouble then punish them for it... Basically, a complete jerk. One reason why that argument fails every time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ssb Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 However, evolution does NOT preclude the existence of a higher power... the Judaic religions, on the other hand, (which are the one's to use the argument you opened with) show very clearly that God has very little kindness and grace, but a shed load of anger, jealousy, hate, a prediliction for throwing tantrums, the personality that will get someone into trouble then punish them for it... Basically, a complete jerk. One reason why that argument fails every time... If "God" was a complete jerk, then why make us in the first place? and If you're gonna use the God in the Bible, then why reject the acts of kindness and mercy shown in the New Testament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 However, evolution does NOT preclude the existence of a higher power... the Judaic religions, on the other hand, (which are the one's to use the argument you opened with) show very clearly that God has very little kindness and grace, but a shed load of anger, jealousy, hate, a prediliction for throwing tantrums, the personality that will get someone into trouble then punish them for it... Basically, a complete jerk. One reason why that argument fails every time... If "God" was a complete jerk, then why make us in the first place? and If you're gonna use the God in the Bible, then why reject the acts of kindness and mercy shown in the New Testament? I think the notable points are 1) that we have no reason to think that "God" did make us in the first place, and 2) that the literary character "God" in the Bible is represented with lots of negative, anthropomorphic qualities. The latter fact lowers our reason for believing that this literary character really exists as the supreme being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 However, evolution does NOT preclude the existence of a higher power... the Judaic religions, on the other hand, (which are the one's to use the argument you opened with) show very clearly that God has very little kindness and grace, but a shed load of anger, jealousy, hate, a prediliction for throwing tantrums, the personality that will get someone into trouble then punish them for it... Basically, a complete jerk. One reason why that argument fails every time... If "God" was a complete jerk, then why make us in the first place? Exactly... Now you have the major reason why that argument is rejected.and If you're gonna use the God in the Bible, then why reject the acts of kindness and mercy shown in the New Testament? Was that God? Seriously, was it God who was doing all the healing? Was it God who was doing all those good things? (which are not as prevelent in the NT as you might think...) Don't go saying it was Jesus and Jesus is God, because that instantly makes Jesus a false Messiah. (Messiah was to be fully human... not a human/god mix...) Oh, and considering just how badly translated, hediously contradictory and knowingly fraudulent much of the NT is, why should we accept any of what it says at face value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I would hardly call the few alturistic acts in the New Testament (especially when compared with the acts of anti-human behavior of the Old Testament as well as the acts of Christians throughout history) evidence for god's existence. If this is evidence is the epitomy of true love, I feel sorry for those loved by this god and those that follow his example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rising_L Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 If you go by the belief that God gave us the ability to be Selfless, then he was also the one who gave Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Ivan the Terrible etc etc etc the ability to be power hungry and genocidal men?? It dont matter if its the old or new testament, the God that commited genocide and created sick laws, is the same God as the new testament. When did he Repent???? According to the bible we have to repent to get to heaven, why dont he repent?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ssb Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Don't go saying it was Jesus and Jesus is God, because that instantly makes Jesus a false Messiah. (Messiah was to be fully human... not a human/god mix...)[/quote] One view is that he isn't a mix, he's both. Both humanity and divinity. But please... tell me your sources.... If you go by the belief that God gave us the ability to be Selfless, then he was also the one who gave Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Ivan the Terrible etc etc etc the ability to be power hungry and genocidal men?? It dont matter if its the old or new testament, the God that commited genocide and created sick laws, is the same God as the new testament. When did he Repent???? According to the bible we have to repent to get to heaven, why dont he repent?? Does one not consider the sacrifice of his son as making amends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rising_L Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Don't go saying it was Jesus and Jesus is God, because that instantly makes Jesus a false Messiah. (Messiah was to be fully human... not a human/god mix...)[/quote] One view is that he isn't a mix, he's both. Both humanity and divinity. But please... tell me your sources.... Sources for both man and God???? The Bible (The so called word of God) Mary = Human God = God Jesus = ???? Was he a God or Human Christians/Bible say he was God therefore NOT human If he was God then he didnt sacrifice his son, he just performed an elaborate trick :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ssb Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Don't go saying it was Jesus and Jesus is God, because that instantly makes Jesus a false Messiah. (Messiah was to be fully human... not a human/god mix...)[/quote] One view is that he isn't a mix, he's both. Both humanity and divinity. But please... tell me your sources.... Sources for both man and God???? The Bible (The so called word of God) Mary = Human God = God Jesus = ???? Was he a God or Human Christians/Bible say he was God therefore NOT human I was asking crazy-tiger dear, but now that you ask.... do you think that 'both' is out of the question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rising_L Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I dont believe any of it!! There is more evidance to suggest it's all crap than evidance to suggest it was true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ssb Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I dont believe any of it!! There is more evidance to suggest it's all crap than evidance to suggest it was true! then what do you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 [Does one not consider the sacrifice of his son as making amends? I consider any form of sacrifice of another's life to be quite sickening and primitive. You have to believe that Jesus was God to make it a self sacrifice for it to be worth anything. Demanding the willingness to sacrifice one's own child such as Abraham being ordered to sacrifice his son, even if he didn't have to go through with it, is just sick sick sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rising_L Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Don't understand your question....Do about what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ssb Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Don't understand your question....Do about what? If you don't believe any of it, then whats the point in talking about it all the time if no-one can prove anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Don't go saying it was Jesus and Jesus is God, because that instantly makes Jesus a false Messiah. (Messiah was to be fully human... not a human/god mix...) One view is that he isn't a mix, he's both. Both humanity and divinity. But please... tell me your sources.... The Bible dear... OT states very clearly that the promised Messiah would be just another man... Of course, by saying he's both Human and Divine, you've just said he's a mix. So, you've just said that one view is that he's not a mix, but a mix... Meanwhile, how about you answer my question? Oh, and considering just how badly translated, hediously contradictory and knowingly fraudulent much of the NT is, why should we accept any of what it says at face value? It's a very valid question... show us why we should believe any of it, then we can talk about the contents. Until then, you're working from an untrustworthy source and won't get anything except torn to shreds. (and that is being nice... you are person {insert number higher than 100} to try this argument in the last 12 months and it's getting very annoying) Don't understand your question....Do about what? If you don't believe any of it, then whats the point in talking about it all the time if no-one can prove anything? <-- looks to see who started this topic... Do you believe the stories of the Greek Pantheon? No? If someone came along trying to argue that your lack of belief was wrong, and doing it in your refuge from a world that tries to force you to accept that belief, would you just sit there quitely and let them spout something that you consider lies? Now you know why we talk about it... we are trying to defend ourselves from people like you, people who are willing to be rude enough to come into someone's home and declare that they believe a lie. And THAT is one of the "nice" things that Christians have been doing for the last 2,000 years. At least now we're not getting tortured and killed by them, by God's orders... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rising_L Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 "... we are trying to defend ourselves from people like you, people who are willing to be rude enough to come into someone's home and declare that they believe a lie." Where did she say that you believe a lie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Don't go saying it was Jesus and Jesus is God, because that instantly makes Jesus a false Messiah. (Messiah was to be fully human... not a human/god mix...) One view is that he isn't a mix, he's both. Both humanity and divinity. But please... tell me your sources.... The Bible dear... OT states very clearly that the promised Messiah would be just another man... Of course, by saying he's both Human and Divine, you've just said he's a mix. So, you've just said that one view is that he's not a mix, but a mix... Crazy Tiger, your problem is that you forget that believers are allowed to make words mean anything they want. The unbeliever thinks, a guy that's a god and a man at the same time is a mix. No, this is god-talk land, where a mix doesn't have to be a mix. Bwa ha ha. Seriously, I suppose one can distinguish among different types of mixes. But why bother on this one? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ssb Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Don't go saying it was Jesus and Jesus is God, because that instantly makes Jesus a false Messiah. (Messiah was to be fully human... not a human/god mix...) One view is that he isn't a mix, he's both. Both humanity and divinity. But please... tell me your sources.... The Bible dear... OT states very clearly that the promised Messiah would be just another man... Of course, by saying he's both Human and Divine, you've just said he's a mix. So, you've just said that one view is that he's not a mix, but a mix... Meanwhile, how about you answer my question? Oh, and considering just how badly translated, hediously contradictory and knowingly fraudulent much of the NT is, why should we accept any of what it says at face value? It's a very valid question... show us why we should believe any of it, then we can talk about the contents. Until then, you're working from an untrustworthy source and won't get anything except torn to shreds. (and that is being nice... you are person {insert number higher than 100} to try this argument in the last 12 months and it's getting very annoying) Don't understand your question....Do about what? If you don't believe any of it, then whats the point in talking about it all the time if no-one can prove anything? <-- looks to see who started this topic... Do you believe the stories of the Greek Pantheon? No? If someone came along trying to argue that your lack of belief was wrong, and doing it in your refuge from a world that tries to force you to accept that belief, would you just sit there quitely and let them spout something that you consider lies? Now you know why we talk about it... we are trying to defend ourselves from people like you, people who are willing to be rude enough to come into someone's home and declare that they believe a lie. And THAT is one of the "nice" things that Christians have been doing for the last 2,000 years. At least now we're not getting tortured and killed by them, by God's orders... now... yes... when did i say you believed a lie? and when did i attack you? is this not a forum where you can ask questions? and may I add that I wasn't questioning the validity of the translation of the NT, you were the one who referred to it first. My question is not related to the NT and neither was I trying to argue. I simply was asking questions. Do you know i am? or what i beleive? Its nice to see that we live in a world that judges everyone by other people's actions. I think you've gotten way off the subject crazy tiger. btw thanku Rising_L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Don't understand your question....Do about what? If you don't believe any of it, then whats the point in talking about it all the time if no-one can prove anything? Really we spend more time discussion how religion has affected our pasts, and will continue to affect our futures until we recognize it's contribution to our early development when we were children. We also discuss the impact religion has had on society as a whole. And yes, we do occasionally like to bat around the Bible too, but not in the sense of finding ultimate truth so much as coming to terms with how the general public has been duped into believing it for so long. But that is easily explained by the lack of general literacy during a large section of that time, and for the more recent timeperiod, people are not encouraged to simply read the bible at face value, when a religious leader they question, goes into a twenty minute explanation of a seven word verse. The listener usually trusts the religious authority, and squelches the little voice of reason that says "if all that is what is meant by that one verse, then why wasn't it originally written that way?" The person may never realize they are being bullshitted, just as because of their belief, the religious authority doesn't really see what they are doing as bullshitting. One of the main reasons Christianity has survived while other cults have gone by the wayside.....christianity took advantage of the most horrific incident of the time. The Plague of Justinian. Until this epidemic, disease had not struck all of civilization with such devestating force before. And when it was still young, it incorperated the pagan beliefs of people into it's own fabric. Do some research on the roots of Christian holidays (including Easter and Christmas). This meant believing in Christianity for these early christians, meant the security of continuing their own beliefs as well. As for your original question. The reason we have altruism, and all the feelings we do. You have to remember that just like wolves and chimpanzees, humans evolved as social mammals. If you look at the social mammal groups, you will find varying levels of emotion within them. In order for the individual to survive, the group must survive. And those behaviors that facilitate the good of the group were passed on. Emotion is a big part of keeping a group cooperating with itself. Emotion communicates with, and binds us to, those around us. Oh and I had the impression that you cannot yet seperate the notion of God from religion. Just because we mention God, does not automatically mean we believe in the Bible, the Jesus, the supposed "sacrifice", or any religions associated with the term "God". It means that some of use do continue to feel there is a god who's nature we still do not know. This site is for ex-christians. Just because we've freed our minds from the stranglehold of religion, doesn't mean we don't believe in the existence of a supreme being. Nor do we believe this being is grading or judging us in any way either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGiant Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Of course I judge people by their actions, including what they say. What else should I judge them by? Their skin? (and I am just asking questions) You ask questions. If you want answers I suggest you come down off your high horse before you are knocked off of it, kid. Now back to the OP and a few questions of my own. Some acts are called good and some are bad? Is this more of a metric of desirability, as it often seems? Is there an objective good/bad in your view? We get our ability to be "good" because we have to live together. A man alone is more often than not, screwed. As for why we feel, well, I guess we're just lucky. It ain't because there is some earth mamma or sky daddy that loves us, that's for sure. (my own view is actually that anything that would be conventionally called a god doesn't give a rat's ass about us). So, do you want dialogue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rising_L Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 In what way was she on a high horse?? I didn't read any judging on her part, or indeed on anyones part. She asked a question and is waiting for an answer, and your reasons for your answer. Is the reason you dont worship beacuse you just DON'T believe or have you done research (I'm guessing the latter) if so why not show ssb and indeed the rest of us your sources?? Rather that have a go just answer the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGiant Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 If you must know, the judging and high horse was from the responses to crazy-tiger. Specifically about being so judgemental based on one's actions. It is how I read it. I have my own strange views on things like gods. The reason I don't worship is very simple, though. If a being is that powerful, really, there isn't a whole lot of caring about what people do in relation to it (kind of like a bunch of ants) and so, worshp becomes a waste of time, does nothing for them and just wastes ours. If the being(s) of that type do not exist, well then, it is wasted time, isn't it? I'll admit, I work a lot on my own observations, hypotheses et al. What I have home-brewed works for me, home grown, hand rolled and for personal use only. As for living together and getting along (along with pseudo-altruism) I would recommend The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins as a start on how systems like this can actually evolve. There are others, but that one is one of the better reads. I note the Crowley quote in your sig, Rising. Do you understand it, or more importantly what the next line is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rising_L Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 I note the Crowley quote in your sig, Rising. Do you understand it, or more importantly what the next line is? The word of Sin is Restriction. O man! refuse not thy wife, if she will! O lover, if thou wilt, depart! There is no bond that can unite the divided but love: all else is a curse. Accursed! Accursed be it to the æons! Hell My interpretation is do whatever makes you feel at peace and good, within reason. As long as it does not harm others. As opposed to the misinterpretation of 'Do What You Want' My apoligies , I must say that I would also base my beliefs on personal research etc Could you possibly mention the user your addressing?? 'Love is the Law, Love under Will' Again my apoligies about the misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Why do animals show emotion and cognitive skills? Did this god you believe in give them souls too and is he/she/it reflecting itself in animals as well? How do you reconcile this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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