Foxy Methoxy Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 . . . is a nice enough guy and all, but is a very misguided and ill-informed Christian (is there any other kind?). He gets very passionate about the issue of separation of church and state and claims that atheists are misinterpreting the constitution when they refer to separation of church and state. Then he goes on some rant about Benjamin Franklin starting the public school system so that children could learn to read the Bible. I couldn't argue with him or hear the rest of his rant because I was laughing too hard. Now I'm no history major, but I'm pretty sure that his rant about Benjamin Franklin starting the public school system to help children learn to read the Bible is laughably wrong in so many ways. . . . Any Ben Franklin experts out there wanna give their 2 cents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rising_L Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 The world has produced few wiser or better men than our American Socrates, Benjamin Franklin. While he lived he was loved and honored by all; when he died, two continents mourned as a child mourns the loss of a beloved father. Eagerly has the church striven to place to her credit the prestige of this wise and good man's name. But in vain; she cannot efface the oft-repeated declarations of his disbelief. Franklin received a religious training, but his good sense and his humane nature forced him to rebel against the irrational and inhuman tenets of his parents' faith, and at an early age a spirit of skepticism was developed in him, as the following extracts from his Autobiography will show: "My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself" (Autobiography, p. 66). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGJ@ReligionisBullshit Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Think about it, if people actually read the Bible without scan reading and besides a snippet here and a snippet there, they might come to the realization of how full of crap it is. Perhaps that is what Ben Franklin was saying. Give the person the power to read and he becomes informed enough that he sees truth with his own eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted March 23, 2006 Author Share Posted March 23, 2006 I'm no expert on the public school system either, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't invented by Ben Franklin. I'm just wondering where a person comes up with such misguided statements such as "Atheists are causing the government to take away my freedom of religion. Benjamin Franklin wouldn't have wanted it that way. He created the public school system to teach children how to read the Bible. There's a reason why it is one nation under God and why Ben Franklin is the only non-president with his picture on our money." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rising_L Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 The most important book at the time was the Bible, So when Ben wanted everyone to read, Christians automatically make the assumption that the only book worth reading is the Bible. I personally prefer the Lord of the Rings!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted March 23, 2006 Author Share Posted March 23, 2006 He gets so into his Ben Franklin rant that I'm almost expecting him to tell me how Ben Franklin died for his sins and rose again on the third day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Foxy, Our current skuLLe systeming is the result of the Progressive Era men like John Dewey, a great fan of the "Prussian School" of thought. Prussian School is the total antithesis of of the open roomed, learn as you can method of colonial/revolutionary America. I don't know that Franklin *did* anything to organized shools, but he did offer up some interesting ideas on education and learning that made teaching groups of kids easier on instructors. As for the "Father of Modern Public Education"? hardly. I believe that he'd puke on your co-workers shoes seeing the sorry sordid state of public indoctrination camps education today. Few URLs to find some information to use: http://nj.npri.org/nj98/05/prussian.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system http://www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski58.html You'll find that what we have today sure the fuck aint'a what Franklin espoused in his writings, speach and actions.. hth kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 Dude, don't you remember reading in school how Ben Franklin turned an English ale into a French wine and that's why the Hittites agreed to aid us in our Revolutionary War? Geez... your grasp of history is all skewed by your atheism. Ben Franklin was a hero and a prophet. He stood before the heathen masses of the English giant, Goliath Smith, armed only with his slingshot and nailed Goliath right in the forehead, which took away his strength and made the walls of Washington, DC come tumbling down. All hail Ben Franklin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted March 23, 2006 Author Share Posted March 23, 2006 Dude, don't you remember reading in school how Ben Franklin turned an English ale into a French wine and that's why the Hittites agreed to aid us in our Revolutionary War? Geez... your grasp of history is all skewed by your atheism. Ben Franklin was a hero and a prophet. He stood before the heathen masses of the English giant, Goliath Smith, armed only with his slingshot and nailed Goliath right in the forehead, which took away his strength and made the walls of Washington, DC come tumbling down. All hail Ben Franklin! Nice! Foxy, Our current skuLLe systeming is the result of the Progressive Era men like John Dewey, a great fan of the "Prussian School" of thought. Prussian School is the total antithesis of of the open roomed, learn as you can method of colonial/revolutionary America. I don't know that Franklin *did* anything to organized shools, but he did offer up some interesting ideas on education and learning that made teaching groups of kids easier on instructors. As for the "Father of Modern Public Education"? hardly. I believe that he'd puke on your co-workers shoes seeing the sorry sordid state of public indoctrination camps education today. Few URLs to find some information to use: http://nj.npri.org/nj98/05/prussian.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system http://www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski58.html You'll find that what we have today sure the fuck aint'a what Franklin espoused in his writings, speach and actions.. hth kL I can see how someone with a Libertarian point of view would want to quote Ben Franklin to support their opinions. But a fundy trying to give him credit for misguided fundy viewpoints is bizarre. Franklin was a genius. His influence on America is immeasurable. But to have absolutely no facts about the man and then create some kind of weird urban legend about how he wanted children to go to school and read the Bible is very strange. Ben Franklin was an intellectual. Misguided fundies are about as far removed from intellectual it gets. The strangest thing is that I've heard the same argument from another misguided fundy. Where does it come from? Obviously, neither person I've heard this from came up with the "Ben Franklin started the public school system to teach my kid about the Bible and now those meddling atheists want to remove everything that Ben Franklin worked for from this country" argument all by their lonesome. I'm wondering if they heard it from their pastor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Christ Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 He gets very passionate about the issue of separation of church and state and claims that atheists are misinterpreting the constitution when they refer to separation of church and state... *sigh* What is with christians and religious people in general? If they don't like the way something sounds, they skew it and "interpret" it however they want to try and make it say something else. But I guess when you've read the bible for so long, you're bound to get confused and want to "read into" things that just aren't there. That seems to be the general consensus of religious thought. If you don't like the way it sounds, interpret it differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted March 24, 2006 Author Share Posted March 24, 2006 Yeah. It's too bad. He's a nice guy though. All silly religious percieved oppression at the hands of evil atheists like me aside, if he were my nieghbor, I'd loan him a rake if he asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 There's a reason why it is one nation under God yeah...It's called McCarthyism. Really, it amazes me how many people think "In God We Trust" and "Under God" have always been part of our money/pledge. Both of these were added as a way to contrast the "god fearing" americans with the "godless" communists. Ironic that they should harken back to a time of policital witch-hunts as the "good old days"... IMOHO, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Christ, I have that exact same statue as the one in your avatar sitting on top of some tiny shelves in the office, looking at me right now. I think Franklin was a Deist, wasn't he? I love how fundies have to pick through every single letter and document written by the founding fathers to find that one sentence that, if manipulated correctly, can possibly hint at the tiniest respect for Christianity (usually written to some dead soldier's Christian mother) and then say, "See, look! They WANTED us to be Christian!" And then pass up the hundreds of documents and letters and diaries and records that show the FFs' true indications as by-and-large Deists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Christ Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Christ, I have that exact same statue as the one in your avatar sitting on top of some tiny shelves in the office, looking at me right now. Yeah, it's a great one. The "Buddy Christ" from the movie Dogma. I still love how they got George Carlin to play the bishop. My brother got me the statue for christmas. Even though he is a christian, he has a good sense of humor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 Here is a little tidbit about Ben Franklin: Source: The Huffington Post It is no secret that the only thing on Earth that Jefferson had less respect for than the King of England was the Christian religion. Ben Franklin considered Christianity totally useless and nothing but a security blanket for the weak. Thomas Paine's political career was doomed early on because he was an open atheist. And John Adams was entirely unambiguous when he not only called both Christianity and the Church inherently evil, but considered religion in general to be chains that will forever restrain Mankind from reaching its true potential. These men were not Christians. They genuinely loathed the religion. The only one of America's original Rat Pack who did call himself a Christian was George Washington. However, it should also be noted that Washington was the most vocal in the insistence that religion be kept as far away from Government as possible at all times. And he absolutely refused to discuss his personal faith with anyone at any political function. Additionally, Jefferson and other contemporaries have been quoted as saying that Washington did not truly consider himself a Christian but was too politically conscious to admit that fact to a predominantly Christian electorate. That is why he would not discuss his faith in public. He didn't want to have to lie, cherry tree and all that. If Ben Franklin had been a Xian, it would have been one thing but he had a strong disdain for Xianity. Xians are pissed that the founding fathers of this country did not like their religion. Had then been true xians do you think this country would have the laws it has today? Common Sense and logic say not. Whenever delusionary xians spout their bullshit, remind them of these things. If they dispute tell them to go take a history class because they are sadly lacking in the true essence of what America was about and what it used to stand for.... More quotes I thought you all might love... "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." --Thomas Jefferson (from a letter to John Adams) "The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three-headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three-headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." --Thomas Jefferson (from a letter to Peter Carr) "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." --Benjamin Franklin (from Poor Richard's Almanac) "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." --Benjamin Franklin (from Poor Richard's Almanac) "The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense." --Thomas Paine (as quoted in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine) "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." --Thomas Paine (from his book The Age of Reason) "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect." --James Madison (from a letter to William Bradford) "That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some, and to their eternal infamy the clergy can furnish their quota of imps for such a business." --James Madison (from a letter to William Bradford) "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved: the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --John Adams (from a letter to Thomas Jefferson) "Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents." --John Adams (from a letter to Thomas Jefferson) Well, as the overwhelming majority of those teaching this anti-history lesson are proud, card-carrying members of the Party of Lincoln, I thought I'd close by pointing out what another great American said regarding Christianity, even though he was not one of the Founding Fathers: "My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them." --Abraham Lincoln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrmarlin Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 The REAL reason Benjamin Franklin started Secondary Schools: The demand for skilled workers in the middle of the eighteenth century led Benjamin Franklin to start a new kind of secondary school. Thus, the American Academy was established in Philadelphia in 1751. American high schools eventually replaced Latin grammar schools. The rise in American high school attendance was one of the most striking developments in U.S. education during the 20th century. From 1900 to 1996 the percentage of teenagers who graduated from high school increased from about 6 percent to about 85 percent. As the 20th century progressed, most states enacted legislation extending compulsory education laws to the age of 16. It is essential to look at the history of public education along with the events shaping the country in the early years of the 20th century. The Great Depression, World War II, the Cold War, wars with other countries, civil rights movement, student protests and the numerous political events within the country all had their effects on the education system too. In the 1920s and 30s, “progressive education” was the word of the day; the focus then shifted to intellectual discipline and curriculum development projects in the later decades. Source: A History of Public Education In The United States So now, when the tater-head says it was because he (Franklin) wanted people to read the bible, you can rebut with that information right there. It was because of a deman for skilled workers. Plus QUOTE your source so there is no room for doubt any longer. Then go on to quote him as I have given you quotes by Ben F. above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-COG Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 Horace Mann had a lot to do with the development of public schools. Fundamentalists dislike him as he supported the idea that schools should be secular in focus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Mann#Educationist_work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 Thanks for the info. I was pretty sure that the guy who once said "God helps those who help themselves" shouldn't be made into a fundy icon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeydid Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I'm no expert on the public school system either, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't invented by Ben Franklin. I'm just wondering where a person comes up with such misguided statements such as "Atheists are causing the government to take away my freedom of religion. Benjamin Franklin wouldn't have wanted it that way. He created the public school system to teach children how to read the Bible. There's a reason why it is one nation under God and why Ben Franklin is the only non-president with his picture on our money." At the risk of just being completely nit-picky, Ben Franklin is not the only non-president on currency. http://www.bep.treas.gov/document.cfm/18/118 Also, Christians tend to claim Franklin was religious I think because the Franklin family had their own pew at a local church. Though the pew was never used. Also, Franklin gave money to basically every church in town, including a couple of jewish temples. He felt all churches did good work, at least if I am recalling that biography I watched on him correctly. However, he was not a christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxy Methoxy Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 The new guy also told me that the reason "the Palestinians" have guns is because Bill Clinton gave them guns in 1993. I asked him where he gets his information and he claimed it was from the Freedom of Information Act :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksand Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I'm no history major, but I'm pretty sure that his rant about Benjamin Franklin starting the public school system to help children learn to read the Bible is laughably wrong in so many ways. . . . Any Ben Franklin experts out there wanna give their 2 cents? Dear Son, I am not a BF expert, but on page 48 in my 1913 impression of his autobiography, Ben talks about how he read thru the bible, got to Revelation, put it down - and thought that Deism was much more rational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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