Does The Bible Say That Christian Faith Is Blind Faith?

[R_Collins]

When I was a Christian, I really struggled with the definition of "faith". The problem was that every other Christian had a different definition of faith - specifically, what is the relationship between faith and evidence. Is faith really just "looking at all of the evidence and taking another tiny step", as my apologetics leaders told me, or was it "blind - the blinder the better", as most of the rest of my Christian leaders told me?

 

The discovery that the Bible really did say that Christian faith was supposed to be blind (in fact, the best faith was faith that went against all known evidence), was a key factor in my becoming an ex-Christian, because it meant that:

(1) There really isn't any evidence for Christ's resurrection, etc

(2) There isn't even supposed to be any evidence. It's all faith, even when contrary to evidence.

(3) The Christian apologists whom I'd trusted were deceiving me

 

I think that lots of Christians have been misled as I was misled. So I have done a video that discusses over 20 Bible passages that show that the Bible does indeed say, repeatedly, that Christian faith is blind.

 

I hope that you find this video to be useful. I welcome any comments, which you can post on this thread or email to freethinkersbooks@gmail.com

Does The Bible Say That Christian Faith Is Blind Faith?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnM5gQlFUwI

[LogicalFallacy]

Because of the inherent difficulties with faith, many Christians when faced with questions about evidence will chortle "but my faith is evidence based". Now this is something of a contradiction in terms. If you have evidence you wouldn't need faith. If we all were presented with undeniable evidence for God, we wouldn't say I have faith God exists. We would say based on the evidence presented I accept God exists, and you would also believe that God exists.

 

However I agree wholeheartedly that using biblical definitions faith is supposed to be IN ABSENSE of evidence. Thus William L Craigs "Reasonable faith" is attempting to get around this little hole. 

 

I point to two versus to support this:

 

Hebrews 11:1-3

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

² For by it the elders obtained a good report.

³ Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

Christians take the word "evidence" there and say "ah ha, see" However reading the passage it is clear that the Christian is using their faith AS their evidence. Its circular. There is nothing in this verse that points to using tangible evidence as we understand it to back up the claims.

 

The second verse is when Jesus admonished doubting Thomas when he said unless I see I will not believe, and Jesus says you believe because you see BUT blessed are those that believe WITHOUT seeing. The inference here is clear and anyone attempting to claim otherwise is really being intellectually dishonest. (Cue WLC?)

John 20:25-29

²⁵ The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

²⁶ And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

²⁷ Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

²⁸ And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

²⁹ Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

Incidentally Thomas might be the first recorded evidentialist? He's my biblical hero. And based on the story he received the evidence he asked for. Of course I don't believe there was any risen Christ but props to Thomas for trying.

[mymistake]

My pastors liked to say that it takes faith to sit in a chair.  You don't know if it will support your weight until you sit in it.  When I was growing up I thought that was a great illustration of faith.

 

But now looking back . . . I don't think so.

 

My whole life I have been observing chairs.  I've sat in chairs for decades.  This experience makes me a chair expert.  I know what a weak or damaged chair looks like.  My expertise in chairs is based on empirical evidence.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

On one hand, yes, due to the verses quoted above. On the other hand, they often point to Abraham as the father of faith, but clearly his wasn't blind (according to the story), nor was that of Moses. We are supposed to trust the stories as all being true with no evidence, replacing evidence with trust in stories. Then we get flak when we counter the stories with facts (like no evidence at all of captivity in Egypt or a mass exodus of Jews), or simply point out the mental illness of a guy who says he talked to a god who now wants him to cut of part of his son's penis.

 

[florduh]

9 hours ago, mymistake said:

My pastors liked to say that it takes faith to sit in a chair.  You don't know if it will support your weight until you sit in it.  When I was growing up I thought that was a great illustration of faith.

 

But now looking back . . . I don't think so.

 

My whole life I have been observing chairs.  I've sat in chairs for decades.  This experience makes me a chair expert.  I know what a weak or damaged chair looks like.  My expertise in chairs is based on empirical evidence.

 

And of course, there actually is a chair there.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

18 hours ago, mymistake said:

My pastors liked to say that it takes faith to sit in a chair.  You don't know if it will support your weight until you sit in it.  When I was growing up I thought that was a great illustration of faith.

 

But now looking back . . . I don't think so.

 

My whole life I have been observing chairs.  I've sat in chairs for decades.  This experience makes me a chair expert.  I know what a weak or damaged chair looks like.  My expertise in chairs is based on empirical evidence.

The chair will also usually have a manufacturer's tag on it, which would yield a wealth of information.  You could google that manufacturer, learn all about its facility, commitment to quality, mission statement, and its attitude toward the environment and slave labor, among other things.  You could even contact the manufacturer and speak to the very people who made the chair.  In other words, you would find real tangible reasons to trust the chair before ever applying ass to upholstery.  Try though you might, you'll never find the same validation for trusting your ass to jesus.

[Geezer]

I understand why Faith is a significant issue for Christians,  but I do not understand why people that are not religious allow themselves to become entangled in these kinds of discussions. 

 

Likewise, I understand why Christians debate, argue,  & quote the Bible because they believe it's a divinely inspired collection of writings that metaphorically fell out of heaven into their laps. And it contains everything a believer needs to know about God. 

 

People, however,  that are not religious but have studied the origins and evolution of the Bible & the Christian Faith know, based on historical evidence, the Bible is a collection of fictional stories with fictional characters. They know there is nothing sacred or divine about the Bible. Therefore, debating Christians about the meaning & interpretation of scripture would seem to be a pointless exercise with no upside for a non-believer.

 

 

 

 

[R_Collins]

Well said, mymistake, florduh, TheRedneckProfessor and Geezer. Thanks. 

 

Geezer, I understand your position. But as an ex-Christian, I would like to explain why I go to the trouble of producing these videos. 

 

When I was a Christian, it was before the internet and it was a lot harder to verify the claims that Christians, particularly Christina apologists, were making. I wasted a lot of years being deliberately lied to by ministers, para-church leaders, professional apologists and others, because I was very sincere about my Christian faith but I had lots of unanswered questions. 

 

I had to go to ministerial school to start getting answers. Once I was an "insider", I quickly learned that there aren't any answers. But that's ok because ministers can still make a good living by practicing "mushroom theology" (keep your flocks in the dark and feed them manure). 

 

I want to help Christians avoid this kind of wasted time, effort and emotion. 

 

I take some of the questions that I had as a Christian, and answer them in my videos and books. So any Christian who is sincerely looking for answers can (hopefully) find those answers in the materials that I offer, which are mostly instantly available for free via the web. 

 

I've done several public debates in front of large audiences, and I'm very good at debating. But a debate provides only a single 2-hour blob of data which is difficult to absorb, and may not answer many of the particular questions that are troubling a particular Christian.

 

So my videos, articles and books give a sincerely questioning Christian, and ex-Christians who want to help their sincerely questioning friends, a way to get just the answers that they are most interested in, in quantities that are small and focused enough so that they will be easier to understand in depth. 

[LogicalFallacy]

2 minutes ago, R_Collins said:

I've done several public debates in front of large audiences, and I'm very good at debating. But a debate provides only a single 2-hour blob of data which is difficult to absorb, and may not answer many of the particular questions that are troubling a particular Christian.

 

Do you have an area of expertise (A Scientific field for example) or debate generally like Matt Dillahunty?

[mwc]

On 2/7/2018 at 9:10 PM, mymistake said:

My pastors liked to say that it takes faith to sit in a chair.  You don't know if it will support your weight until you sit in it.  When I was growing up I thought that was a great illustration of faith.

 

But now looking back . . . I don't think so.

 

My whole life I have been observing chairs.  I've sat in chairs for decades.  This experience makes me a chair expert.  I know what a weak or damaged chair looks like.  My expertise in chairs is based on empirical evidence.

     I had a fat friend who broke more than a couple of chairs.  Funny as hell...except more than one was *my* damn chair.  Okay.  Still funny as hell.

 

     Thing is those chairs held me just fine.  Held everyone else just fine.  Broke under his ass.  Is that how this chair faith works?  It just gives out when it really needs to work?  Under a lot of actual weight?  Sounds like shit to me.  That's when chairs fail but gods should work best.  Oddly enough they seem to work about the same.

 

          mwc

 

[Justus]

On 2/7/2018 at 2:23 PM, R_Collins said:

So I have done a video that discusses over 20 Bible passages that show that the Bible does indeed say, repeatedly, that Christian faith is blind.

Since faith comes by hearing the Son of God then it sounds like the LORD must have sent you a strong delusion if you hear your Bible talking, might want to get that checked out since it might develop into an Unction. 

[LogicalFallacy]

10 minutes ago, Justus said:

Since faith comes by hearing the Son of God then it sounds like the LORD must have sent you a strong delusion if you hear your Bible talking, might want to get that checked out since it might develop into an Unction. 

 

So tell me, when was the last time you heard the son of god?

 

And if you think the phrase "the Bible does indeed say" literally means the bible talks then you have some serious comprehension problems.

 

Why do I get the feeling you are a troll? You have not posted one serious argument in favor of your particular God. All I've heard are smart arse retorts. 

[R_Collins]

LogicalFallacy: "Do you have an area of expertise ... or debate generally..."

 

Most of my formal education is in science. But I do not attempt to debate science with Christians for a couple of reasons:
(1) Most Christians do not even want to understand science, and there is so much charlatanism in "scientific" defenses of Christianity  (e.g., creationism) that I do not want to dignify them with a response. 
(2) Even if I "win" a scientific debate with a Christian (which, even when I do, they never admit it, because it's like trying to debate with someone who believes that they were abducted by extraterrestrials), then all I would have done is to turn them into a Christian who also believes in science. So I have not helped them as much as I think I could have.

 

I think that it is more effective to attack Christianity where Christians believe it is the strongest - the Bible. They believe it is a perfect book because they've never really studied it. So it is easy to point out errors and contradictions that many Christians have never thought of.  

 

Also, in-depth study of the Bible is the biggest single reason why I rejected Christianity. I went to a Bible-believing church, was heavily involved in para-church groups, etc., for a decade, but I just believed whatever my Christian leaders told me about the Bible. I did not dig deeply into the Bible until I became a full time ministerial student in a hyper-conservative (Calvinist) seminary. Within a few weeks of starting classes there, my rational mind was screaming "none of this can possibly be true", and within a year, my former faith had died a well deserved death. 

 

BTW, it is unlikely that I will do any more debates because I think that making videos is a more effective way for someone with my background and knowledge to communicate persuasive evidence to Christians who are asking sincere questions. In the time it takes for me to prepare for a debate, which might be seen by a couple of hundred people, I can create a video which might be seen by thousands of people. In addition, a sincerely questioning Christian can view my videos privately (avoiding pressure from other Christians), take notes, review parts that they did not understand at the first viewing, etc., on their own schedule at times when they can truly pay attention. 

[R_Collins]

Justus:  "...it sounds like the LORD must have sent you a strong delusion..."

 

Not long ago, I would have said something very similar to what you said in your post. If you are happy with your beliefs, then I respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe. 

 

But if you are like I was - outwardly sure but inwardly conflicted - then I invite you to visit 

 

my YouTube channel:      https://www.youtube.com/user/freethinkersbooks

 

and my web site:      http://www.freethinkersbooks.com

 

These are designed to help sincerely questioning Christians learn things about the Bible and other aspects of the Christian faith that Christian leaders have tried to hide from them. You can view this material in complete privacy without any other Christians suspecting that you have secret doubts. 

 

My web site also contains an email address where you can send any comments or questions that you may have. 

[Guest end3]

On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 2:23 PM, R_Collins said:

When I was a Christian, I really struggled with the definition of "faith". The problem was that every other Christian had a different definition of faith - specifically, what is the relationship between faith and evidence. Is faith really just "looking at all of the evidence and taking another tiny step", as my apologetics leaders told me, or was it "blind - the blinder the better", as most of the rest of my Christian leaders told me?

 

The discovery that the Bible really did say that Christian faith was supposed to be blind (in fact, the best faith was faith that went against all known evidence), was a key factor in my becoming an ex-Christian, because it meant that:

(1) There really isn't any evidence for Christ's resurrection, etc

(2) There isn't even supposed to be any evidence. It's all faith, even when contrary to evidence.

(3) The Christian apologists whom I'd trusted were deceiving me

 

I think that lots of Christians have been misled as I was misled. So I have done a video that discusses over 20 Bible passages that show that the Bible does indeed say, repeatedly, that Christian faith is blind.

 

I hope that you find this video to be useful. I welcome any comments, which you can post on this thread or email to freethinkersbooks@gmail.com

Does The Bible Say That Christian Faith Is Blind Faith?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnM5gQlFUwI

Without looking at your video, but thanks, I feel the message is, blind faith, or Trust in another, is essentially the high calling.  When we break trust, we have essentially given over to the other side. 

[Justus]

 

On 2/14/2018 at 1:36 AM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

So tell me, when was the last time you heard the son of god?

 

Not sure if I understand what you are saying, but  I'll take it you meant the audible voice since you obviously are in the dark about the audible word.  So if you hear me, my answer your question would be was several years ago.  

 

If you don't believe it could be possible then there isn't any reason for you to open the spoiler which contains my testimony.  

Spoiler

 

 

A couple of years ago had to put a hydraulic steering pump back together on my terramite T5C tractor after a letting someone I knew change out the two lines from the steering pump to the steering cylinder.   He needed  to make some extra money and I was short on time. 

 

Since he asked to drop the steering pump since the two lines were hard to get to while attached to the frame, instead of removing the two nuts from the two bolts holding the steering pump to the frame, when he removed the four nuts from the bottom of the pump  the segmented pump completely seperated into pieces, and I didn't even know if all the pieces were there.So when I called Terramite for a replacement hydraulic steering pump, when they said $900 I asked where i could I find a parts list and assembly diagram explaining what happened.  After being told that unless it was marked when being dissembled then it would be impossible to put it back together for a reason I am not really sure since I had never worked with hydraulic pumps before.

 

Well the long and short of it was after putting it together and installing it, and then taking it back off and trying another configuration and putting it back about 7 or 8 times, the last time I put it on and it still didn't work properly, it would turn correctly on direction but would resist when turning the other direction, and feeling frustrated in my faith in principles which I thought should lead a person to do anything if followed correctly.  For example the claim it was impossible , since the pump was manufactured and assembled from pieces originally then why could it not be reassembled and put back together since they isn't any difference.  So therefore the principle says it could be, but I couldn't.  And as I turned the steering wheel one last time as I looked at the pump I heard an audible voice that asked "DId you see that?" and I replied "See what?" to which I heard "that!"  And I looked and I saw. 

 

Once I saw it, I didn't hear the audible voice again, but I somehow knew what to do.  ( Thomas Paine explained in one of his books  as being one of the two distinct classes of thought if you are familiar with is writings).  I did what I was told and within 30 minutes I started the tractor and turned the wheel to the left, and then to the right and  it worked.  Now I wouldn't haven't a problem saying that I fix it because I am  Superman but that would be a hell of way to repay the Holy Ghost  with a lie by claiming I fixed it without his help, after all the LORD is the Spirit of truth according to Deut 32:4 wherein it is written that the LORD is the God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.  

 

I

Quote

 

And if you think the phrase "the Bible does indeed say" literally means the bible talks then you have some serious comprehension problems.

 

So you admit that as an ex-Christian that you believed you had faith because it is written that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God? 

 

Quote

Why do I get the feeling you are a troll? You have not posted one serious argument in favor of your particular God. All I've heard are smart arse retorts. 

 

So do I take that as an admission that you did hear the written word?

 

 

 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

13 hours ago, Justus said:

 

 

Not sure if I understand what you are saying, but  I'll take it you meant the audible voice since you obviously are in the dark about the audible word.  So if you hear me, my answer your question would be was several years ago.  

 

If you don't believe it could be possible then there isn't any reason for you to open the spoiler which contains my testimony.  

  Hide contents

 

 

A couple of years ago had to put a hydraulic steering pump back together on my terramite T5C tractor after a letting someone I knew change out the two lines from the steering pump to the steering cylinder.   He needed  to make some extra money and I was short on time. 

 

Since he asked to drop the steering pump since the two lines were hard to get to while attached to the frame, instead of removing the two nuts from the two bolts holding the steering pump to the frame, when he removed the four nuts from the bottom of the pump  the segmented pump completely seperated into pieces, and I didn't even know if all the pieces were there.So when I called Terramite for a replacement hydraulic steering pump, when they said $900 I asked where i could I find a parts list and assembly diagram explaining what happened.  After being told that unless it was marked when being dissembled then it would be impossible to put it back together for a reason I am not really sure since I had never worked with hydraulic pumps before.

 

Well the long and short of it was after putting it together and installing it, and then taking it back off and trying another configuration and putting it back about 7 or 8 times, the last time I put it on and it still didn't work properly, it would turn correctly on direction but would resist when turning the other direction, and feeling frustrated in my faith in principles which I thought should lead a person to do anything if followed correctly.  For example the claim it was impossible , since the pump was manufactured and assembled from pieces originally then why could it not be reassembled and put back together since they isn't any difference.  So therefore the principle says it could be, but I couldn't.  And as I turned the steering wheel one last time as I looked at the pump I heard an audible voice that asked "DId you see that?" and I replied "See what?" to which I heard "that!"  And I looked and I saw. 

 

Once I saw it, I didn't hear the audible voice again, but I somehow knew what to do.  ( Thomas Paine explained in one of his books  as being one of the two distinct classes of thought if you are familiar with is writings).  I did what I was told and within 30 minutes I started the tractor and turned the wheel to the left, and then to the right and  it worked.  Now I wouldn't haven't a problem saying that I fix it because I am  Superman but that would be a hell of way to repay the Holy Ghost  with a lie by claiming I fixed it without his help, after all the LORD is the Spirit of truth according to Deut 32:4 wherein it is written that the LORD is the God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.  

 

 

 

How do you know it was "the Lord" or God as opposed to some other being or force you don't know about, or your own sub conscious solving problems internally?

 

I ask because stories like this are dime a dozen - my own pastor father has a story about hearing an audible voice about getting baptised. Not once has anyone offered a reasonable explanation as to how they know it was from their particular God as opposed to any other source or explanation. And... people from different religions attribute these voices to their Gods.

 

It seems if you are a Christian Jesus speaks to you, if you are Muslim Allah speaks to you and if you are the Holy FSM prophet the noodly appendage touches you. But no one actually comes up with a rational reason for anyone else to accept these stories.

[Justus]

On 7/30/2018 at 11:00 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

How do you know it was "the Lord" or God as opposed to some other being or force you don't know about, or your own sub conscious solving problems internally?

 

 

Fair enough, as far as my own sub-conscious solving problems internally- like I said I had reached the point I had no clue what to do.  Problem solving requires knowledge of the possible causes in order to define the probable solutions.  If given the problem of 3 + y = x could you tell me what the value of x was?  But y has a value but you just don't know it yet without it you couldn't solve the problem no more that I could, or anyone else could.  But if you knew the possibilities of y were 1, 5, or 7 then yes you could try 1, 5, or 7 +3 and find the solution to the problem.  Are you familiar with the teachings of Thomas Paine on the two distinct classes of thought?   Anyways, thoughts are not audible. 

 

 As far as some other being, if there wasn't anyone around me when it occurred and the dead don't speak then I feel I can safely rule that possibility out. 

 

As far as being a force,  to be honest I didn't know that any force that could possibly speak except maybe the Force in Star Wars and I don't think that it ever actually spoke to anyone,  

but if you know of one that does then I would consider looking into as the possible reason I heard what I heard. 

 

To be honest it makes me no difference whether you believe it to true or just another one of those dime a dozen stories that you were told, you asked me a question and I answered, and you questioned my answer and I answered those questions  so unless you expect me to prove something that you don't even consider possible then

that would be off topic so let's please  try to maintain the integrity of the thread. 

[duderonomy]

On 8/1/2018 at 8:35 AM, Justus said:

If given the problem of 3 + y = x could you tell me what the value of x was? 

 

You claim to know what x is.  Of course it's easy for you to find the value of y.