Being challenged by Catholic family members

[Burt_Lemur]

I feel like I should introduce myself, I used to post here a lot, but for some unknown reason I’ve been gone for 4 years or so! I took the path away from Catholicism many years ago. Both parents are deceased, and for many years my 3 brothers and 1 sister have never had any discussions with me about my status as a “fallen Catholic”. That is beginning to change. My oldest brother and his wife are extremely devout Catholics, and my sister, who stopped going to Mass for years, has dived back in big-time.

 

I have no desire to discuss any of this with them, but they are starting to bring it up more and more. I feel like I need to be prepared for an impending showdown. My sister especially will try to guilt trip me, and suggest that I am insulting our deceased parents by no longer being a practicing Catholic. I know she won’t hold back with the threats of Hell.

 

And that makes me wonder, exactly what the hell are Catholics supposed to believe about all this now? Isn’t Pope Damage-Control now going around saying that everyone goes to Heaven, even atheists? I need to prepare myself for what I feel is an upcoming sort of intervention, where I will be greatly outnumbered. Are there any ex-Catholics here who have gone through a similar confrontation from family members? Any feedback on this will be greatly appreciated.

[mymistake]

Not in that situation but always remember to start with "I don't want to talk about it", "please respect my wishes" and "respect my beliefs the same way you wish me to respect your beliefs".

 

If they go for an intervention that depends on how far are they willing to take things.  If they kidnap you and have a Jesuit ready to perform a exorcism then it might be time to pretend that you are a Christian at least long enough to get to safety.  Stay safe.

[Burt_Lemur]

Thanks, MM. I think I need to Google exactly what the Vatican’s stance is on ex-Catholics. I don’t think it’s the same as it was for centuries, when they basically stated that you are either Catholic, or you are going to Hell; especially now when the Pope is claiming that everyone goes to Heaven.  My suspicion is that my siblings, especially my sister, are pretty old-school about this and will try to threaten me with the prospect of Hell to scare me back to attending Mass every week.

[sdelsolray]

1 hour ago, Burt_Lemur said:

Thanks, MM. I think I need to Google exactly what the Vatican’s stance is on ex-Catholics. I don’t think it’s the same as it was for centuries, when they basically stated that you are either Catholic, or you are going to Hell; especially now when the Pope is claiming that everyone goes to Heaven.  My suspicion is that my siblings, especially my sister, are pretty old-school about this and will try to threaten me with the prospect of Hell to scare me back to attending Mass every week.

 

Why does it matter what your siblings think, or believe, or assert?  If they cannot respect you for having your own worldview and cannot love you as a sibling, then they have rather deep problems.  You need not take ownership of their problems, enable their behavior or be codependent upon them.  Also, your siblings understanding of Catholic dogma and the Catholic Church's historical or current dogma, and whether they are consistent or not, is hardly relevant to any discussion of your current beliefs.  Don't play in their sandbox.

 

Of course, keep your statements and responses short, truthful, to the point and devoid of harmful content.  Example:

 

Sibling:  Why have you run away from the truth of our family's religion?

You:  I no longer believe in most of the tenets, claims and dogma of the Catholic religion.

Sibling:  You will burn in hell for doing that.

You:  I do not believe that.

Sibling:  Why don't you believe it?

You:  There is no actual evidence supporting most of the bald claims of the Catholic religion, including the "hell" construct.  You and I were indoctrinated as children with this unsupported religious dogma.  We were surrounded with related peer pressure to believe from family members, other Church members, other adults, etc.  At least for me, my curiosity, inquisitiveness and skepticism were stifled by this behavior.

Sibling:  You are a selfish person who hates God.

You:  Just not in any way you can demonstrate.

Sibling:  Our parents would be deeply saddened by your apostasy.

You:  Telling them the truth would be the appropriate moral path and would be intellectually honest.  In any event, they are dead.  I cannot tell them anything and they are no longer capable of experiencing emotions.

Sibling:  But they are looking down at you now from heaven.

You:  Says you.  I do not believe that.  Eternal life, heaven, hell, and a host of other fictions, are just some of many unsupported claims made by the Catholic religion.

Sibling:  What will your cousins, aunts and uncles and family friends say when they find out you are an atheist?

You:  I'm not sure.  Perhaps you should ask them.  Then again, perhaps you should not ask them.

 

Etc.

[older]

Hi Burt:

 

Sdelsolray's advice is good. You wrote that you might need to be prepared for a showdown. But a showdown just gives them opportunities to debate, argue or fight. As it is sometimes said on the net, "don't feed the trolls." Something similar to Sdel's suggestion is called the stuck record technique. You just keep repeating the same thing to whatever they say. "Thanks for your concern but I don't care to discuss it." No matter what they say, you just repeat the same response, without raising your voice or changing your tone or inflection in any way, just like an old fashioned record that skips and repeats the same few bars over and over. Make your response sound exactly the same each time. If you refuse to debate or discuss, they are left with nothing.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, older said:

Hi Burt:

 

Sdelsolray's advice is good. You wrote that you might need to be prepared for a showdown. But a showdown just gives them opportunities to debate, argue or fight. As it is sometimes said on the net, "don't feed the trolls." Something similar to Sdel's suggestion is called the stuck record technique. You just keep repeating the same thing to whatever they say. "Thanks for your concern but I don't care to discuss it." No matter what they say, you just repeat the same response, without raising your voice or changing your tone or inflection in any way, just like an old fashioned record that skips and repeats the same few bars over and over. Make your response sound exactly the same each time. If you refuse to debate or discuss, they are left with nothing.

Agreed. This is the advice I was given. Repeat the same message over and over, until they realize it's not going to change. They might try change tactics, or give you space and then get back to it, but keep to it.

[Burt_Lemur]

Thanks for the great feedback, Sdelsolray and Older. Your ideas for a strategy are very helpful. This will not be the same as debating other, non-related theists. Family makes it so much more complicated.

[Daffodil]

On 5/4/2018 at 6:18 PM, Burt_Lemur said:

Thanks, MM. I think I need to Google exactly what the Vatican’s stance is on ex-Catholics. I don’t think it’s the same as it was for centuries, when they basically stated that you are either Catholic, or you are going to Hell; especially now when the Pope is claiming that everyone goes to Heaven.  My suspicion is that my siblings, especially my sister, are pretty old-school about this and will try to threaten me with the prospect of Hell to scar

On 5/4/2018 at 6:18 PM, Burt_Lemur said:

Thanks, MM. I think I need to Google exactly what the Vatican’s stance is on ex-Catholics. I don’t think it’s the same as it was for centuries, when they basically stated that you are either Catholic, or you are going to Hell; especially now when the Pope is claiming that everyone goes to Heaven.  My suspicion is that my siblings, especially my sister, are pretty old-school about this and will try to threaten me with the prospect of Hell to scare me back to attending Mass every week.

e me back to attending Mass every week.

 

Never been catholic, but did study it with the intent of possibly becoming one as I was deconverting from evangelicalism years ago.  I think the current pope is possibly your best defense against this kind of thing.  After all, he is supposed to be god's representative on earth for catholics, right?  So no matter how much they throw hell at you, keep coming back to "The pope says everyone is going to heaven, so I have no reason to fear."  If they challenge that, then challenge them for being catholics that do not hold to the pope's teachings!

[Daffodil]

I would also add that if there is a strong chance of them ambushing you with an intervention, I would start coming up with excuses not to meet them in anyone's home.  Offer to meet them for coffee in a restaurant or something, but try to avoid homes.  They will have a harder time harassing you in public.

[Burt_Lemur]

Thanks for your thoughts,  Daffodil.  The Pope aspect is tricky. The more I read about it, though Pope Francis is trying to make the church sound more tolerant, it’s all typical Catholic double-speak. While he says everyone can go to heaven, it still really depends on them accepting Jesus before they actually die. If I’m misinterpreting this or anyone has further clarification, I would appreciate it.

[LogicalFallacy]

Hi Burt

 

I would if possible stay out of theological or dogma related discussions. Let the Christians argue among themselves on that. The bible is such you can interpret it in a thousand ways.

 

I agree with sdelsolray - what other people believe and assert is irrelevant. I would say it almost certain you'll be hit with the hell question.

 

How you respond depends I think on several things: Your willingness to debate topics, how important the relationships are to you and so on.

 

For example if you were not inclined towards debate and maintaining amicable relationships was important you might just say to them "I don't believe hell exists so the thought of it has no impact on me".

 

If you were more inclined to debate and didn't mind treading on sacred ground you could make a case for why it's highly unlikely that hell exists, and why worrying about only one hell (The Catholic one) is illogical when it could be the Muslim hell... or the Greek Tatarus you might end up in.

 

Since you state you are not inclined to discuss this then MM's suggestions are first and formost. You could lead with something like "I don't believe the same things you do and I don't wish to discuss it" . If they insist, come back with a stronger version: "I stated I don't wish to discuss our beliefs. Please respect this." If they insist after that I'd walk out, hang up the phone - whatever. Tell them that when they feel like being respectful humans to contact you.

 

Best of luck to you!

[Burt_Lemur]

Thanks, LogicalFallacy.  Maybe I’ll try to become the next Pope and I can change all the rules!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, TrueScotsman said:

With family, I think the long game is most effective.  First, demonstrate that just because you're not a believer doesn't mean you can't be a good person.  Most believers are extremely biased and distrustful of atheists and non-believers, if you just be a genuine good person to them, this might soften their stance.  Second, it might over time cause them to doubt themselves which can only happen if they begin to question on their own terms.  My family is Mormon and I never talked to my sister much at all about my reasons for leaving, but when she finally came to doubt she was very open with me and more open to hearing what I had to say since I wasn't combative about it in the past.

 

There is likely nothing you can say to change anything or speed up the process, just try to love them and be yourself as much as is possible is my advice.  You might have to experience their shame and despair at you possibly going to hell, but I have found the long game is the only way to possibly get through to them and make dealing with them in the meantime bearable.  A theological debate would be worthless, the Bible has no consistent message and Catholics rely on the magisterium of the Church to do a lot of interpreting for them.

I totally agree with this, the long game does matter. I speak as an ex christian who came to see the hypocrisy in my own family, and couldn't square what I saw as the more christian behavior of the non believers in comparison to the believers. It planted seeds that eventually led to doubts and questions.