Guest questioner4 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 http://contenderministries.org/mail/041820...happywiccan.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 well, yes they are jerks, but what else do you expect. on the other hand a lot of claims were made, like the bible has been disproved by science, and christianity has pagan roots. Which I agree with, but I think they may have been worded poorly, and no proof was offered of these things in the letter. Did you write this? If so I don't say this to be negative or anything. Its just that when debating with christians...or indeed anyone who strongly disagrees with your point of view, they will try to set up strawmen of the things you say, or deny them if enough evidence is not offered. Even without realizing they are doing it most of the time. The mind is an odd device sometimes, and will generally try to protect its world view any way posible, even if it doesn't live up to the rigors of logic. I think in many ways he misrepresented what you said (set up a strawman) and then shot down something you didn't even mean. All I can really say, is when you go to debate with a christian, you are going up against people who will believe the most irrational arguments as long as it protects thier worldview. You have to be VERY well prepared or everything you say will just be ignored...even if you are well prepared sometimes you'll still be ignored anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Iconoclastithon Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I found as many fallacies in this Wiccans letter as in the ministries reponse{and Christianity in general}. {Quote;Wiccan/}Science has disproved so many of your biblical theories and whatnot to be wrong. Even though this fact is presented, you still choose to believe in what you do. {Unquote/} Yeaaahhh, and Science has'nt disproven the God and Goddesses that you worship? Science has'nt disproven many of the Wiccans theories. LoL!!! Whatever! She/he is correct thoigh about Christianity and ancient paganisms. Freaking theists! In Reason: Icono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Yeaaahhh, and Science has'nt disproven the God and Goddesses that you worship? Science has'nt disproven many of the Wiccans theories. LoL!!! Of course no deity's existence has ever been proven positively... but then, faith per se isn't bad really. It's blind faith that does the damage. Hey, I'm a believer too... but I don't run around pissing off people by trying to convert them to something I have not a shred of objective evidence for. I also keep having a life in parallel to my faith, and the only thing that slightly hurts myself is that I spend somewhat more money than I would normally (if a small part of the contents of every mead bottle et cetera I buy goes into a chalice on my home altar, obviously I have to buy some more ). Is this kind of faith a victimless crime or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Yeaaahhh, and Science has'nt disproven the God and Goddesses that you worship? Science has'nt disproven many of the Wiccans theories. LoL!!! Of course no deity's existence has ever been proven positively... but then, faith per se isn't bad really. It's blind faith that does the damage. Hey, I'm a believer too... but I don't run around pissing off people by trying to convert them to something I have not a shred of objective evidence for. I also keep having a life in parallel to my faith, and the only thing that slightly hurts myself is that I spend somewhat more money than I would normally (if a small part of the contents of every mead bottle et cetera I buy goes into a chalice on my home altar, obviously I have to buy some more ). Is this kind of faith a victimless crime or what? Well said - and in the final analysis, pagan deities (who by nature are nondogmatic, unlike the monotheistic gods and their dogmatic definitions of everything around them) haven't been disproven either. The only thing we can truly be sure is that we simply may not have all their indentities and/or attributes correct, and this is because if they do indeed exist, they aren't showing up to remind us of anything. Perhaps they are unable to, and also this is beyond their ability. But that's a whole 'nother can o' worms. Faith indeed isn't the problem - it's blind faith of the sort that leads one to place religion above people and above self and obsess over spirituality to the point of being harmful that is. After all, the pagan faiths aren't about making converts - they are about living, be it invention of a new spirituality (like the Wiccans do) or some sort of reconstruction of ancestral beliefs (like most Asatruar, for example). But life and the here and now are what's important to a pagan, not living for spiritual pipe-dreams that rob us of our vitality. It's relatively easy to have a natural, rational, level-headed faith and not go overboard with it into a dogmatic cult seeking new zombies. I, too, am travelling down a similar path, and find it no problem at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Frankly I don't see any "wrong" in their comment. Xtians are welcome to their "intelorant" beliefs and even expressing them, but Xtians shouldn't crib when we critise theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycorth Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Frankly I don't see any "wrong" in their comment. Xtians are welcome to their "intelorant" beliefs and even expressing them, but Xtians shouldn't crib when we critise theirs. Precisely. They have a natural right to their beliefs and to express their opinions, but they should at least return courtesy for courtesy and not cry like little bitches when someone criticizes their religion - after they get done pissing all over someone else's. Then again, it's part of the Xian mindset to fail to understand when someone doesn't want to believe in their cult and to make a big deal out of someone else's unbelief in it. It's hard for them not to act like the robots they're programmed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poonis Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, questioner4, and I hope this does not come across as harsh, but every god is a myth, especially yours. But if it is any comfort, I think less of the Christian god than I do yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadoe Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Christians spend a lot of time bashing Wiccans these days. It's probably because Wicca is growing so fast - they see it as a threat. Christians MUST bash these other religions, because it's written into their religion that theirs is the "one true way." If they went around respecting other religious beliefs, they'd give the impression that there is more than one true way, and then their whole house of cards would collapse. I don't bother writing to sites like these, no matter how hateful they get, because I know it doesn't do any good. It's not going to change their opinion and it's only going to fuel their fear. The only way to deal with them is to be more civillized than they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Iconoclastithon Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Yeaaahhh, and Science has'nt disproven the God and Goddesses that you worship? Science has'nt disproven many of the Wiccans theories. LoL!!! Of course no deity's existence has ever been proven positively... but then, faith per se isn't bad really. It's blind faith that does the damage. Hey, I'm a believer too... but I don't run around pissing off people by trying to convert them to something I have not a shred of objective evidence for. I also keep having a life in parallel to my faith, and the only thing that slightly hurts myself is that I spend somewhat more money than I would normally (if a small part of the contents of every mead bottle et cetera I buy goes into a chalice on my home altar, obviously I have to buy some more ). Is this kind of faith a victimless crime or what? Well said - and in the final analysis, pagan deities (who by nature are nondogmatic, unlike the monotheistic gods and their dogmatic definitions of everything around them) haven't been disproven either. The only thing we can truly be sure is that we simply may not have all their indentities and/or attributes correct, and this is because if they do indeed exist, they aren't showing up to remind us of anything. Perhaps they are unable to, and also this is beyond their ability. But that's a whole 'nother can o' worms. Faith indeed isn't the problem - it's blind faith of the sort that leads one to place religion above people and above self and obsess over spirituality to the point of being harmful that is. After all, the pagan faiths aren't about making converts - they are about living, be it invention of a new spirituality (like the Wiccans do) or some sort of reconstruction of ancestral beliefs (like most Asatruar, for example). But life and the here and now are what's important to a pagan, not living for spiritual pipe-dreams that rob us of our vitality. It's relatively easy to have a natural, rational, level-headed faith and not go overboard with it into a dogmatic cult seeking new zombies. I, too, am travelling down a similar path, and find it no problem at all. Faith is by natgure-BLIND. Faith is by definition "100% certainty" or absolute belief,trust in,love for, "faith" in, something not "yet" proven or even w/strong evidence{in "some' cases} and in something that may be contrary to the evidence. If it is NOT contrary to evidence and has alot of evidence{not necaccerily "full proof"} in it's favor, than it is isn't "faith"{unless it is treated as an absolute, I maintain that "STRONG" athiesm and "STRONG" Deism/Agnosticism,etc, are also "faith"}. The apostle Paul had it right when he properly defined faith= "assurance of things hoped for, conviction of things not seen". If one does not have 100% certainty in their gods or whatever they are proposing, or in their trust of something/someone, then that is a "LACK OF faith"{ie:"faithless"} not "faith". Faith is by defintion "blind". Take the liberal christians and moderate/liberal Islamics and Liberal theist faithists, this is ansurd. I mean one could be of a faith that has liberal moral values or liberal political outlooks{take Buddhism,Wicca/Neo-Paganism,and others} but "liberal/moderate" faith{itself, the "faith" itself, for "faith" is 100% certainty} is a contradiction, it is an absurd idea that doe'snt make sense; what's more absurd is "liberal/moderate" Christianity/Islam-one of the most absurd ideas ever produced; allthough I do see a logical premise for "symbolic" Christianity{though not"symbolic" Islam}-or atheist/agnostic/deist/rationalistic types whom find "symbolic' inspiration in Jesus himself. Take myself, I am a deist, I am faithless. However, I do find "symbolic" inspiration in a "symbolic" pantheon of mythological deities{Lucifer/Satan,Prometheus, a few others, but that's mainly it}, but I do not literally believe in them. But theism itself and "faith" are absurd ideas, they just don't work given the evidences. Pagan/Neo-Pagan deities are NOT non-dogmatic, some deities revered "literally' by todays Neo-Pagans did unspeakable and atrocious things or commanded such w/in their ancient mythologies too, many of them have just been whitewashed by modern Neo-Pagan THEIST "faithists", much the same way that many so-called Christians attempt to whitewash Biblegod and his atrocities and hypocrisies and dogmas too. Now when any of this is done PURELY in a 'symbolic" context for psychological inspiration{like Jungian archetypes and symbolic myths,etc] -this I can uderstand, many humans need such muses{or feel drawnto them anyways}, but to take it beyond that into the realm of the literal is absurd. Faith and theism are a cancer to the human mind, a dangerous meme that must be exposed and not apologized for. Faith and theism are hand in hand twin raper sof reason and destructors of huamnity{and all else that we come into contact with}. In Reason: Icono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 You know what? My spider sense is telling me that the Wiccan objection letter is a fake. I honestly don't know exactly why, and I will readily acknowledge that I could well be wrong. But there's something about it... something that just smells like it's a letter written by a Xian based on what objections they think a Wiccan would have to their site. There's something too... I don't know. Formulaic, maybe? About that letter, and about others in the Wiccan section. Yes, I'm suggesting that Contender Ministries wrote that letter themselves, in order to create another opportunity to outline their particular stance. Something just feels... either heavily contrived, or else heavily edited. But I'll also reiterate that I'm quite paranoid, don't trust fundiegelicals as far as I could throw them, and am inclined to believe the worst about their motivations and methods. I wouldn't put it past a fundiegelical to make shit up, if they thought it could reinforce their point of view or win converts, or otherwise help tell the world how right they are. But that's just me. If someone else did in fact write that response, fair 'nuff, I'm wrong; I've been wrong before, and it won't be the last time. Food for thought, anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 You could be right, gwenmead. My initial response, as I was reading, was that a kid wrote it. Lo and behold, she claims to be 16. Now, I know a LOT of well-spoken 16 year olds, but I also know a lot who write just like this girl did. So yea, it could be a set up or it could just be a frustrated kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 I think that CM's response boils down to "It's OK for us to be intolerant of your beliefs because our belief system is intolerant." Some strange circular logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts